When the E side isn't needed...

I have a fiend who is on the end of a very long line (about 2 miles). She used to get just shy of 2Mbps on ADSL.
A new AIO cabinet was put in down the road, and now she's getting a solid 40Mbps on VDSL. However, she still gets frequent disconnecitons - I'm guessing this is due to issues further down the E side.
My question is this - she doesn't use the phone line for anything other than the internet. Yet there's a big long piece of copper causing stability issues. As far as I know BT won't separate out the line before and after the cab - but wouldn't it make sense to? This isn't a cost issue, it's more about stability. Can this be done?

Not until they are allowed to do so, i.e. LLU requires the E side to remain in place

Interested in how you've diagnosed the issue as being on the exchange side of the cabinet

Also currently needed for line testing

I thought on FTTC that the DSLAM filters were supposed to eliminate E-side noise?

I�m fairly sure one of the engineers posted that here years ago, and moving to it certainly stopped the disconnections I was getting several times a week on ADSL2+.

If there is noise causing FTTC problems surely it is D-side?

The cause of the issue could be anywhere along the line including in the friend's premises, you have not said anything about a noises line or spells of no dial tone which I assume would be hard to detect as your friend doesn't use the line for making calls.

[Edit] Just trying to make the point that its not necessary on the E side.

Edited by deleted (Tue 12-Feb-19 10:13:47)

This was my thinking too, hence asking how the poster has diagnosed the E side as being the source of the noise.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

diagnosed the E side as being the source of the noise.

Who said anything about a noisy line?

Yes. Last night I saw you ask that, but forgot just now . I�ve just noticed also the OP said �I'm guessing ...�. Wrongly I think.

This instability, was it present on the slow ADSL? If not, it seems more likely it is a new problem on the D-side, or in the AIO cabinet.

Is the router disconnecting and re-sync�ing, or is it just the wireless connection to it?

Is your fiend using a dangly filter, and if so does the problem still occur when using the test socket?

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 12-Feb-19 10:35:37)

"I'm guessing this is due to issues further down the E side"

An implication from this statement - happy to entertain other descriptions

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

"I'm guessing this is due to issues further down the E side"

An implication from this statement - happy to entertain other descriptions

Just my interpretation, an intermittent loop or a condition on one of the legs could possibly cause frequent disconnects, may not reveal itself as noise.

The OP hasn't said how often the frequent disconnects actually are.

But other than for line testing as witchunt pointed out, does FTTC >> VDSL2 require any input from the E-side copper? Surely if that were broken it would just output VDSL2 back to the PCP and user?

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

"I'm guessing this is due to issues further down the E side"

An implication from this statement - happy to entertain other descriptions

Just my interpretation, an intermittent loop or a condition on one of the legs could possibly cause frequent disconnects, may not reveal itself as noise.

The OP hasn't said how often the frequent disconnects actually are.

Just to clarify, I am not saying the OP's friend has a D or E side issue, I'm purely saying it may not reveal itself as noise (some have assumed it is noise on the line without confirmation from the OP).

Edited by deleted (Tue 12-Feb-19 13:48:33)

Fiend - I spotted that earlier. It was a typo, but it kinda fits

The connection has always been unstable, especially under ADSL. It drops out most with wet/cold weather, which makes me think it's a connection somewhere. And I make my fiend test with a cabled connection first. I've had enough grief over that connection to jump to any conclusions!

I'd fitted a BT mk3 VDSL filter on her socket. The ISP made her take it off recently and use a dangly filter. Le sigh.
Nothing else is used on the line - purely the router plugged directly into the socket.

Oddly, when the line drops, it stays dropped.

ISP is Zen, with one of their Fritz routers.

Agreed, it was more of a theoretical question. I've no idea where the fault is, though I suspect it's not the internal wiring, as there isn't any (other than the DSL patch cable!)
There's no phone connected, which is a pain when trying to diagnose the fault!

Thanks all

The original question was more of a theoretical one, and an engineering one. Other than testing (and OR mandating it's existance) is there a technical need for the E side if the phone line isn't needed.

My 'guess' at the location of the fault is purely based on probability due to line length. The E side is much longer than the D side, so higer probability. And yes, thats completely ignoring that junctions/connections are more likely to go wrong than a solid run of copper.

The disconnects are pretty intermittent - more frequent in cold and wet weather, but it can be fine for days or weeks, and then will start misbehaving for a few days.

As I think I said originally, there's no phone connected, and no internal wiring. Which is a pain to test, but it means it's hard to blame anything other than the line or the router.

If I was a proper friend, I'd get a wired phone and go listen to the line. But as she's more of a fiend....

In reply to a post by gromit69:

My 'guess' at the location of the fault is purely based on probability due to line length. The E side is much longer than the D side, so higer probability. And yes, thats completely ignoring that junctions/connections are more likely to go wrong than a solid run of copper.

The E-Side is not part of the xDSL circuit so is not the cause of the disconnections.

As others have said the line test heads are located at the exchange so the E sides will have to remain even after 2025 (when BT's PSTN gets switched off) to allow for remote testing. The only way the E sides could go would be if they found a safe way to move the test heads to the cabs.

This was the only thing I could think of - plus all the admin/line ID stuff will be at the exchange end.

Do we know yet how OR will provide a voice service post PSTN? Will it be based at the cabinet with the DSLAM?

The E-Side is not part of the xDSL circuit so is not the cause of the disconnections.

Whilst the E side isn't part of the VDSL signal path, it's still connected to the line and so can cause interference - whistles, pops etc.

Hi

As others have said the line test heads are located at the exchange so the E sides will have to remain even after 2025 (when BT's PSTN gets switched off) to allow for remote testing. The only way the E sides could go would be if they found a safe way to move the test heads to the cabs.

Surely not? Come PTSN switch off, unless ADSL is in service, the E side tests are pointless, as all they are testing is cable that isn't used. VDSL/G.Fast has their own tests that can be carried out from the cabinet already, no need for a connection to the exchange over POTs.

The plan is to move a large amount of people to fibre by 2025, and all the old copper wires will be recovered where possible, this provides scrap value to BT, plus makes more room in ducts for fibre and maintenance. I'm sure some telephone exchanges will be closed or re-purposed as old equipment is removed further saving costs.

Now, how likely it is everyone by 2025 will a) Have an internet connection, b) Have the equipment or ability to set up VoIP, c) Will know anything about it even, given there is no PR about a PSTN switch off and we are only 6 years away, is another question entirely.

Regards

Phil

Edited by deleted (Thu 14-Feb-19 08:23:45)

In reply to a post by gromit69:

Do we know yet how OR will provide a voice service post PSTN? Will it be based at the cabinet with the DSLAM?

No not at the Cab or DSLAM, BT's service will be VOIP

The other thing the exchange provides is backup power for POTS. If you ignore that, then integrating ATAs into the VDSL line cards would seem an obvious solution. But they won't want to put a big backup battery in every cabinet.

From this point of view, a passive optical network with a battery-backed FVA in each home is more resilient than an interim solution based on FTTC and VOIP.

But in parallel with all this, mobile coverage continues to improve. I suspect that battery backup for fixed-line emergency calls will become a distant memory - going the way of phone boxes today, and police boxes before them.

After all, nobody lets their mobile phone run out of power - they might miss an important Facebook update!

In reply to a post by PhilipD:

Surely not? Come PTSN switch off, unless ADSL is in service, the E side tests are pointless, as all they are testing is cable that isn't used. VDSL/G.Fast has their own tests that can be carried out from the cabinet already, no need for a connection to the exchange over POTs.

Line testing is done from the test heads in the exchange not from the DSLAM.

In reply to a post by PhilipD:

Now, how likely it is everyone by 2025 will a) Have an internet connection, b) Have the equipment or ability to set up VoIP, c) Will know anything about it even, given there is no PR about a PSTN switch off and we are only 6 years away, is another question entirely.

Closed for new customer from 2023, I suspect there will be lots of information to come out about this as time moves on.

The E sides will still be required for other providers unless they decide to demise their kit as well which is unlikely as there is still money to be made.

Indeed.
Although you you said as it's longer it's "probably" the cause of disconnections.
That would be incorrect.

The E-Side is not directly connected to the D-Side.
They are connected via filters which filter of the xDSL signal.

The cause of the disconnections is "probably" on the D-Side.
A whole lot more than probably though.

I've never heard of an E-Side issue breaking sync on the D-Side VDSL2 link.

The DSLAMs have copper line test capabilities.

If you think they keep the E-Side after disabling PSTN/ADSL you're very wrong.

Edited by j0hn83 (Thu 14-Feb-19 09:16:06)

Where has Openreach stated that by 2025 they will remove copper?

If they do this, then TalkTalk who intend to continue with their MPF exchange based copper services will have problems.

Also the voice over broadband does not require people to be on VDSL/FTTP service, no reason it will not be over ADSL2+. Hence the continued push to get WBC ADSL2+ to support this.

In terms of setting up VoIP - it is as simple as plug in a device to the mains and the phone line and then connect the phone to that.

So 2025 means no MPF LLU anymore?

That will be news to the like of TalkTalk and Sky

>No not at the Cab or DSLAM, BT's service will be VOIP

If not at those two locations, where will it be?

Remember this VoIP will also work with people who are not subscribing to a retail broadband ISP

I didn't put any date on anything. LLU providers will cling on to their assets as long as they can.
There will be resistance to a 2025 shut off.

I was commenting on the suggestion that E-Side is necessary for copper line test facilities. It is not.

LLU/ADSL services are the only reason the E-Side is still necessary. When that goes so will the E-Side.

Line tests and voice services can be done in other ways.

Hi

Of course the eventual aim is to remove copper, as it would be to too costly to run both a full FTTP network over the top of copper and maintain it.

Openreach of course are looking for the relaxation of rules etc that might restrict what they can make obsolete where LLU is concerned, and companies like TalkTalk and Vodafone and others are building their own fibre networks with this eventual removal of copper in mind. I doubt if PSTN switch off will happen by 2025 as a lot needs to be done first, not to mention education to the general public.

In terms of setting up VoIP - it is as simple as plug in a device to the mains and the phone line and then connect the phone to that.

Maybe for the demographic that visit this forum it's simple, but a lot of people don't have any internet so it wouldn't be that easy. Some elderly relatives I know who limp along on ADSL only turn it on when they use it which isn't very often. I have parents/in-laws and neighbours who don't have any internet connection at all or mobile phones, and there is a whole host of vulnerable people that would struggle with this sort of simple task. To say it's simple is patronising to many groups of people.

I think in the years to come it will become less PSTN transition to VoIP, but more of a PSTN complete switch off. This is about BT Openreach becoming a data provider rather than a telephone company, which makes perfect sense.

If people want an "old style" home phone, they buy the VoIP box themselves and sign up elsewhere for it, otherwise it's using a mobile phone or Skype or it's equivalent.

Regards

Phil

Edited by deleted (Thu 14-Feb-19 10:22:30)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

The E-Side is not directly connected to the D-Side.
They are connected via filters which filter of the xDSL signal.

The cause of the disconnections is "probably" on the D-Side.
A whole lot more than probably though.

I've never heard of an E-Side issue breaking sync on the D-Side VDSL2 link.

The E & D Sides might well be connected via filters in the DSLAM yes, but they very much are connected together and faults on the E side such as battery & earth contact do go right through those filters and effect the end customer, including VDSL sync. The only thing the filters do in the DSLAM is filter out the ADSL frequencies so they don't interfere with the VDSL signal on the d side, they don't filter or stop anything else. So any other fault on the E side, will flow right through them.

Granted the odds of this fault is more likely to be on the d side rather than e side though, but without proper testing it is impossible to say for sure. It could be the drop wire, a d side joint (anywhere), a faulty d side pair in the cable length, a fibre port, the master socket, cross-talk (although less likely if the fibre cab is new).... The list goes on.

Eventual aim, but taking about ripping out lots of copper by 2025 is scaremongering

If you are asserting that a lot of people cannot plug something into a mains wall plug and another lead into the phone socket and plug the phone into that, then I am very surprised that sales of DECT phones are as high as they are. Since a VoIP handset should be as simple as that, i.e. sent out all pre-configured by the retailer of the phone service.

The debate is around the vulnerable group and identifying them, e.g. those who will require battery back up and someone to plug it in, or just check they have followed the instructions.

Voice over Broadband will not need you to have an Internet subscription.

Under current plans, if you don't like the voice over broadband transition then the old unpowered handsets will continue to work if you sign up to a TalkTalk FULL LLU service.

Hi

Eventual aim, but taking about ripping out lots of copper by 2025 is scaremongering

I wasn't scaremongering, who was I trying to scare. As areas and towns are converted over to full FTTP the old copper infrastructure will be removed, if nothing else the accountants will see to that. It's obvious it will happen, and needs to happen.

Also new large housing developments are FTTP only now, there is no option for LLU as there isn't any copper, and no one seems concerned that LLU isn't available. LLU is out-dated now, and there is no LLU equivalent for G.Fast or VDSL and as more people move to faster services, LLU becomes even less of an issue.

As for DECT cordless phones, again I have relatives that only use corded phones, they have no interest in cordless phones because it confuses them or they are too small to use, and in one case, she kept losing the handset!

Under current plans, if you don't like the voice over broadband transition then the old unpowered handsets will continue to work if you sign up to a TalkTalk FULL LLU service.

Well TalkTalk will need to either buy the exchanges from BT or cover more and more of the running costs if they want to become a PSTN phone provider. Openreach are not going to invests billions of pounds in a modern FTTP network and still pay to run exchanges they have no use for just so TalkTalk can offer a POTs line to Auntie Jean. I also suspect for TalkTalk they have no interest and next to no profit in offering just a telephone line over POTs, as it stands, try finding the option to buy just a regular telephone service on their website.

The future is data only for OpenReach, it has been really for a number of years. A large number of people only have a landline because they want Internet (us included), and the landline phone goes unused or isn't even plugged in. I think however what we have seen so far from the industry and pundits alike is that the transition to a complete VoIP solution is over simplified, as whilst the percentage is small, there are still large numbers of people that a VoIP solution isn't going to be a solution.

Regards

Phil

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

If you think they keep the E-Side after disabling PSTN/ADSL you're very wrong.

I will refer you to previous comments made by Icaras and kitcat and I trust their comments.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

I was commenting on the suggestion that E-Side is necessary for copper line test facilities. It is not.

Incorrect and witchunt has also confirmed this.

In reply to a post by witchunt:

Also currently needed for line testing

If you think after PSTN/ADSL is disabled they are going to keep/maintain the E-Side for conducting copper line tests on the D-Side then you're naive.

I'd be amazed if they kept the non GEA exchanges open.

Not really bothered who you quote. Isn't going to happen.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Not really bothered who you quote. Isn't going to happen.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

>No not at the Cab or DSLAM, BT's service will be VOIP

If not at those two locations, where will it be?

Remember this VoIP will also work with people who are not subscribing to a retail broadband ISP

I am interpreting your comment that you think or know that BT are going to put there VOIP kit in the Cab/DSLAM, which really surprises me.

I imagined it would be centrally held and those only wanting a phone would get a locked down xDSL service with a ATA connected to it.

In reply to a post by TheInstaller:

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

The E-Side is not directly connected to the D-Side.
They are connected via filters which filter of the xDSL signal.

The cause of the disconnections is "probably" on the D-Side.
A whole lot more than probably though.

I've never heard of an E-Side issue breaking sync on the D-Side VDSL2 link.

The E & D Sides might well be connected via filters in the DSLAM yes, but they very much are connected together and faults on the E side such as battery & earth contact do go right through those filters and effect the end customer, including VDSL sync. The only thing the filters do in the DSLAM is filter out the ADSL frequencies so they don't interfere with the VDSL signal on the d side, they don't filter or stop anything else. So any other fault on the E side, will flow right through them.

Granted the odds of this fault is more likely to be on the d side rather than e side though, but without proper testing it is impossible to say for sure. It could be the drop wire, a d side joint (anywhere), a faulty d side pair in the cable length, a fibre port, the master socket, cross-talk (although less likely if the fibre cab is new).... The list goes on.

Agree with you 100%

"As areas and towns are converted over to full FTTP the old copper infrastructure will be removed, if nothing else the accountants will see to that. It's obvious it will happen, and needs to happen."

What date? Where is the announcement about this happening?

New developments - a very different scenario, and one that would have gone through scrutiny to ensure it did not unduly affect the market.

So for those relatives who lose handsets and cannot plug in anything, then they will fall into the vulnerable category then.

TalkTalk are already a PSTN provider, via the voice services delivered by the MSAN they have installed in a couple of thousand exchange buildings.

Centrally held, which may be the exchange or could be a cabinet...so what is central for one may not be central for all.

You are aware that a DSLAM can do voice and broadband, just called a MSAN when running multiple services like this.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

You are aware that a DSLAM can do voice and broadband, just called a MSAN when running multiple services like this.

No I didn't know that, always willing to learn.

Hi

What date? Where is the announcement about this happening?

I don't know the dates, I doubt any dates have been mentioned except for this 2025 year. It will happen when it happens. There are consultations happening as I'm sure you aware, one outcome is:

The consultation also uncovered broad support for a 'switchover' approach to FTTP which would migrate all customers onto the new platform - and retire the old one - as quickly as possible after it has been built in a given area. But it's clear that the operational complexity and cost of such a programme would be significant.

That consultation involves all industry players including TalkTalk. "Retire the old one" doesn't spell out what happens exactly, but I think most people would understand that to mean selling, mothballing or re-purposing exchanges and related equipment, removal of copper where there is scrap value that exceeds any removal cost.

TalkTalk are already a PSTN provider, via the voice services delivered by the MSAN they have installed in a couple of thousand exchange buildings.

Presumably why some CPs (we don't know which ones) have expressed an interest in making their own investment with preferential terms on using any new network. Just as Openreach realise there is little money to be made from PSTN running on an ageing infrastructure, with fewer and fewer calls made using it, so will have TalkTalk.

Some CPs are also interested in sharing the risk of the investment, but in return for preferential terms on the infrastructure that's built, with a variety of different models suggested. There were also a range of views expressed on how Openreach should decide on the scale, make-up and locations of the new network, and these will be considered in detail as the business develops its new network strategy.

Source https://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/ma...

Regards

Phil

And 2025 has been announced as proposed retirement date of the WLR service and have been to meetings where lots of WLR resellers have been briefed and asked for feedback etc

TalkTalk may change their position on retaining their MPF service delivered over the existing MSAN but position in late 2018 at these things was their voice services will continue unchanged.

Hi

I'm sure regulation will be changed to allow Openreach to terminate these services regardless of what TalkTalk desires, unless TalkTalk want to pay more of the running costs for legacy POTs.

The whole point of the Openreach investment in FTTP is to see the retirement of this ageing copper infrastructure and no will thank TalkTalk for holding that up or for preventing it's removal. TalkTalk will have to move with the times eventually, as come FTTP, they will be seen as outdated and their shareholders will be wanting to know what their future is. At the moment, they are trying to reassure their investors they still have a business after 2025, but their tack will change, especially when a lot of their customers migrate to FTTP anyway!

Regards

Phil

In reply to a post by PhilipD:

As for DECT cordless phones, again I have relatives that only use corded phones, they have no interest in cordless phones because it confuses them or they are too small to use, and in one case, she kept losing the handset!

So how long before a manufacturer brings out a corded alternative (even if it is a handset and base unit which are in reality connected together by a bit of wet string)?

When you call the emergency services from a fixed line or VoIP number that has been registered, they know exactly where you are calling from. It's not quite so easy when the call is from a mobile phone.

Most likely the voice over broadband unit will include a phone socket so those who want a corded phone, or the classic big button or other variants will be able to plug it directly in.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

I'd be amazed if they kept the non GEA exchanges open.

Closing telephone exchanges is nothing new, worked out of a few over the years that have closed, Wood Street springs to mind because of it history, they diverted all the main cables to Faraday and I think the exchange equipment was put in Baynard House.

[Edit] That doesn't include dozens of non-exchange buildings that closed like BTI Mondial House, Dowgate Hill, Falmouth Road, Houndsditch (where one of BT's deep tunnel extrances is) and Creechurch Lane to name just a few.

[Edit] Just thought of another one Riverside House, now home to OFCOM after they moved from Ludgate Hill.

Edited by deleted (Thu 14-Feb-19 15:33:45)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Voice over Broadband will not need you to have an Internet subscription.

That's interesting: it implies that a DSL service will be activated on the line, purely for the VOIP ATA - and the ATA will include a DSL router of some sort.

In that case, in principle they could also provide this service using FTTC, if they had enough capacity at the cabinets that is.