From Hero to Zero!

So like many others I've been waiting impatiently for FTTP to arrive on our street. It's been reported as "in scope" for 2 years, and work looks almost complete (OH cables in place, track nodes, joints, new ducting and a CBT). So imagine my surprise when both the Openreach and Digital Scotland trackers, both changed to "Not in Scope" overnight. It says "We don't have any plans to upgrade your area yet" which is not true, because they evidently DO (did) have plans! There are even roadworks planned to start this week.

Has anyone seen this change of heart by Openreach so far down the deployment path and can anyone offer any inside view of what might be happening? Postcode is TD14 5

Thanks!

This vanishing was sometimes a pattern just before checkers actually said it was live, so don't give up just yet.

Thanks Andrew, trying not to get my hopes up too much!

Thing is, roadworksscotland.org does still show OR work happening this week on the route to our agg node, and traffic lights were installed last week, so I assumed progress was being made still. Reading some of the other threads this morning it seems half deployed solutions are not unheard of, but ours is BDUK funded one, so should have a deadline (or 2, or 3)

Similar happened to me when on EO line and waiting on FTTC, all was looking good, loads of Openreach vans around, then they seemed finished and it changed to "not in scope" on Digital Scotland and Openreach checker....I was gutted, few days later I got BT Infinity flyers through my letterbox saying it was now in my area...Yippee!

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

This vanishing was sometimes a pattern just before checkers actually said it was live, so don't give up just yet.

Ahh that partially explains why ours has gone back to about 2 properties getting fttp despite Hampshire CC saying ours is about start work.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

This vanishing was sometimes a pattern just before checkers actually said it was live, so don't give up just yet.

So it turns out it was a "map error" which has been corrected rather than a sign of the imminent go-live

Plus now I'm getting conflicting go-live dates ranging from this month (OR partnership team) to December 2020 (OR twitter team) - Clear as mud!

In reply to a post by chrisdev:

Plus now I'm getting conflicting go-live dates ranging from this month (OR partnership team) to December 2020 (OR twitter team) - Clear as mud!

I had the same issue of sorts; Hampshire BB team said this year, then OR twitter team said July 2020. Then about 3 weeks ago the OR website said my post code wasn't in-scope anymore!. Spoke to Hampshire BB they said OR was wrong, and work should be starting soon or it already has... Anyway I checked again with OR which took 3 emails from them and today they said by December this year.

And the OR website is now saying FTTP is coming soon. All of which has made me look like a complete idiot on here

I had the same issue of sorts; Hampshire BB team said this year, then OR twitter team said July 2020. Then about 3 weeks ago the OR website said my post code wasn't in-scope anymore!. Spoke to Hampshire BB they said OR was wrong, and work should be starting soon or it already has... Anyway I checked again with OR which took 3 emails from them and today they said by December this year.

And the OR website is now saying FTTP is coming soon. All of which has made me look like a complete idiot on here

Don't worry, I think everyone understands the lack of reliable timelines coming from OR! Whether it's Digital Scotland or Hampshire BB, none of them seem to have a complete grip of progress or completion. I've been given dates for 3 years that have come and gone and so I've stopped pinning my hopes on any dates I'm given. What I don't understand is how Digital Scotland, HBB or any of the others are not being held accountable for spending public money when they themselves appear to have no control over when their suppliers (OR) actually deliver. If indeed DS or HBB actually have project managers, it must be the most frustrating job!

The oddest part is that in some areas there is a lot more information on time scales and what has recently gone live, so some councils find a way to work with BT/Openreach and others don't.

The costs of running the council side of things suspect has meant some councils have pruned things back and any social media team left is doing this along with a myriad of other things. Another factor was some of the abuse you could see in public social media

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The oddest part is that in some areas there is a lot more information on time scales and what has recently gone live, so some councils find a way to work with BT/Openreach and others don't.

Take Oxfordshire, they've (or are) going to house level with Hampshire CC, its a horrid map, which when you zoom into it disappears and you are told to take the mapping as a guide only.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The costs of running the council side of things suspect has meant some councils have pruned things back and any social media team left is doing this along with a myriad of other things. Another factor was some of the abuse you could see in public social media

That has been evident with Hampshire, the team at one stage wasn't updating things for months. Now they are being more transparent again. The team have been fab to me overall but nonetheless frustrating at times.

So as of today, I'm back to 'Zero'.

I caught an OR chap poking around today and it turns out he was there to "sign-off" before go-live, except that our house and 3 others have been classed as having wayleave issues and so we won't be going live. The other 3 houses closest to the DP with CBT have now gone live on dslchecker, but not us

The engineer didn't know what the wayleave issues where, but I did help him identify and literally dig out the chamber that had the ducting already in place for our copper that goes from the CBT pole to our houses, so there is definitely a route already in place.

Is there anything I can do here other than start hanging ethernet between our houses!?

Would running fibre to any of the properties likely to require to much about in a garden perhaps that is not the persons who has ordered fibre?

In reply to a post by chrisdev:

Is there anything I can do here other than start hanging ethernet between our houses!?

if it was me I would ensure that the duct from house to manhole is clear so that fibre can be put through easily. I actually put my own duct in from pole to house so that ftth fibre could cross the garden

Edited by threelegs (Mon 02-Sep-19 20:01:30)

"Would running fibre to any of the properties likely to require to much about in a garden perhaps that is not the persons who has ordered fibre?"

In English please....?

Would running fibre to any of the properties likely to require to much about in a garden perhaps that is not the persons who has ordered fibre?

It appears that in OR's view of their network, they would have to dig across someones drive, or install a new pole and OH cable in order to reach our 3 houses. However, because today I physically uncovered an existing duct and chamber (which was unknown to OR) I have hope that they magically resolve the wayleave issue. But without knowing what the wayleave issue actually is, I'm just guessing.

Ultimately, my question is how do I tell OR about their own infrastructure which I believe would resolve their wayleave issue!

Edited by chrisdev (Mon 02-Sep-19 23:01:34)

Post deleted by chrisdev

In reply to a post by threelegs:

In reply to a post by chrisdev:

Is there anything I can do here other than start hanging ethernet between our houses!?

if it was me I would ensure that the duct from house to manhole is clear so that fibre can be put through easily. I actually put my own duct in from pole to house so that ftth fibre could cross the garden

I could do that too, but then how do I convince OR that this has resolved their wayleave issue.

Lol

Wayleave worries usually mean Openreach think they will need access to some private land to do the install. So is that the case?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Lol

Wayleave worries usually mean Openreach think they will need access to some private land to do the install. So is that the case?

That is what chrisdev is asking and has the duct that chrisdev found solved the problem. And how can he find out

First instance should be notes passed by retailer onto Openreach and they come back out to check it.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

First instance should be notes passed by retailer onto Openreach and they come back out to check it.

But I'm not able to order any FTTP service yet, so I have no formal route into OR. The reason I know there are wayleave issues is because I chatted with the engineer signing-off the FTTP structure before it went live in the checker yesterday.

It would seem to me that if Openreach are simply going to give up at the first hurdle without informing anyone about potential wayleave issues then a full FTTP rollout is going to leave a lot of properties not connected.

Take this case for example. Three houses are left out because you (possibly incorrectly assume) you need to trench across a drive. Did anyone from Openreach ask the owner of the drive if they objected to a trench being put in? By all accounts these properties have rather poor broadband, and even if you have no requirement for an endgame broadband install you would have to be pretty dense to realize that a poor broadband connection will have a significant impact on the resale value of your property. Also refusing the trench would likely make you very unpopular with your neighbours.

Is the ISP you intend to order FTTP from the same as the one providing your service now?

If yes, then they should take up the case on your behalf

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

It would seem to me that if Openreach are simply going to give up at the first hurdle without informing anyone about potential wayleave issues then a full FTTP rollout is going to leave a lot of properties not connected.

Take this case for example. Three houses are left out because you (possibly incorrectly assume) you need to trench across a drive. Did anyone from Openreach ask the owner of the drive if they objected to a trench being put in?

Completely agree - There was no involvement from us as residents about this - and what is most frustrating is that we are all being told fibre is "on the way" for years, yet I find out that's not the case from a chance encounter with an engineer, the day before all the other houses go live on the checker.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Is the ISP you intend to order FTTP from the same as the one providing your service now?

If yes, then they should take up the case on your behalf

Yes, It would be (A&A) but are you sure they would get involved when dslchecker says nothing about FTTP for my house? I'm effectively blocked from ordering until computer says "yes" ?

As its A&A then yes, they almost seem to relish fixing things that are a bit unusual.

it may be worth contacting openreach directly via

https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/when-to-g...

You might have to talk to several openreach staff till you get the right person

The alternative might be to get an FTTPoD quote and pay up the £250. Presumably once they find the duct is in place and all the other FTTP stuff is in place the quote will be very cheap...

In reply to a post by chrisdev:

I caught an OR chap poking around today and it turns out he was there to "sign-off" before go-live, except that our house and 3 others have been classed as having wayleave issues and so we won't be going live. The other 3 houses closest to the DP with CBT have now gone live on dslchecker, but not us

I would take what the Openreach bod on the ground told you with a pinch of salt as there may also be other issues (eg cost) which he might not be aware of. You would really need to speak to someone in Openreach higher up the chain (Planning Dept?) to get the full picture. Getting Andrews & Arnold involved might be your best chance as they have a reputation (well deserved imo) of getting to the bottom of things. As a last resort you may want to get a firm CFP quote with your neighbours (free unlike FTTPoD) and that will shed further light on any potential issues. Obviously if they give you a firm CFP quote (after a site survey) then the issue may not have been wayleave(s) after all, it may just have been down to cost.

Good luck!

Thank you for all your advice and suggestions.

I've contacted A&A, but they say they are not able to help since the service isn't available and any order would be rejected.

I'll let you know how I get on with the other routes! I guess there's always the CEO email

Chris

In that case probably worth going the CFP route, so that you can try to get an Openreach Surveyor on site and discuss with him any potential issues in person. He/she is likely to know far more than the previous person you met on the ground. Otherwise you might find it difficult to speak to the right people /dept at Openreach.

I'd agree but also for the op, to ask their neighbours if needed if they want faster BB via fttp.

A quick update in case anyone is interested!

I pursued a case through my ISP (A&A) who had success in getting OR to change the Wholesale checker such that my house now shows as being able to order WBC FTTP, I'd call that a result and it only took a week! I've since placed an order and got an installation date of the 23rd. I'm still dubious about whether the install will succeed, but at least it gets the ball rolling if further work needs completing.

I have one more question too. Since my closest (only) CBT is at the top of a pole, is it common for the fibre tail to be connected to the CBT, then run down the pole and underground, or does a CBT at the top of a pole always serve properties overhead?

The overhead (OH) CBT feed would usually serve the existing OH premises. If your line is underground (UG) then it would be served from the UG CBT feed, which is usually located in the manhole cover.

You can check this by going to: https://www.dslchecker.bt.com

just to chuck my tuppence worth in to the pot. I have ftth and the manifold is on the pole in the garden and the fibre comes to the house u/g (in a duct I put in) otherwise it would have been o/h . the copper comes u/g but is not in a duct just buried direct.

In reply to a post by chrisdev:

I have one more question too. Since my closest (only) CBT is at the top of a pole, is it common for the fibre tail to be connected to the CBT, then run down the pole and underground, or does a CBT at the top of a pole always serve properties overhead?

I asked the following question recently, although not exactly the same scenario its response maybe helpful if there are no CBT's in manholes near your property.

In reply to a post by dect:

Does anyone know what happens when the route between the CBT and the property means the connectorised fibre cable has to go overhead between poles before then going underground via ducting to the property? the reason I ask is I thought there were different connectorised fibre cables for overhead and ducting so what one would they use?

Got the following reply from Zarjaz who is a extremely reliable and helpful contributor on this forum.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

They�d use an OH kit all the way. The overhead stuff has steel strengthening also.

Have done a couple of this sort of scenario. Starts o/h then duct to the premises. Or the other way round. Wall mounted CBT, through duct, up the stick, four spans then in.

Hope this helps.

In reply to a post by max360:

The overhead (OH) CBT feed would usually serve the existing OH premises. If your line is underground (UG) then it would be served from the UG CBT feed, which is usually located in the manhole cover.

You can check this by going to: https://www.dslchecker.bt.com

This is wholly wrong.

Thanks dect, that is helpful, and also Zarjaz for confirming. The only CBT we have is on a pole, so hope it'll run from there UG to the house.

There�s a good chance of a �pre-visit� which will check for light on the quoted CBT port, make an estimate of length of kit required, and will (hopefully) rope the ducted section in readiness .... might even fit the connectorised kit and leave a coil at the house end.

Where I live, that was the case. My FTTP line feed is OH. House next door is fed from UG feed.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

There�s a good chance of a �pre-visit� which will check for light on the quoted CBT port, make an estimate of length of kit required, and will (hopefully) rope the ducted section in readiness .... might even fit the connectorised kit and leave a coil at the house end.

Would you like to come and do my install Zarjaz?

In reply to a post by chrisdev:

Would you like to come and do my install Zarjaz?

Join the queue

I got a "pre" visit to check for light at the manifold, they did not have a long enough length of fibre on board , so the OR engineer came back the next day(new years day!!!!) and pulled it through the duct leaving a huge coil that I then ran through the loft and down through the walls to the other side of the house ready for the next engineer to connect to the ONT

So a quick update for those interested.

After A&A opened a case with Openreach and WBC FTTP became available at my property I placed an order and on 12th September an engineer turned up to rod and rope. He did manage to rope the duct from my house to the pavement chamber but not from pavement chamber to base of the pole. Said it might need the dig team as the ducting looks like it is not finished to a good standard. The ducting starts a couple of feet away from the base of the pole meaning the existing copper line is exposed and not very secure.

Since then, I've had 2 install appointments scheduled and missed, and now have one scheduled for the end of the month (50 days after my original order) and no sign of dig works yet.

A&A have escalated but no further information forthcoming from OR

In reply to a post by chrisdev:

So a quick update for those interested.

After A&A opened a case with Openreach and WBC FTTP became available at my property I placed an order and on 12th September an engineer turned up to rod and rope. He did manage to rope the duct from my house to the pavement chamber but not from pavement chamber to base of the pole. Said it might need the dig team as the ducting looks like it is not finished to a good standard. The ducting starts a couple of feet away from the base of the pole meaning the existing copper line is exposed and not very secure.

Since then, I've had 2 install appointments scheduled and missed, and now have one scheduled for the end of the month (50 days after my original order) and no sign of dig works yet.

A&A have escalated but no further information forthcoming from OR

I know the delays are not ideal but hopefully Openreach will get it sorted, a little confusing with the duct starting a couple of feet from the pole which isn't good but if that's the route your copper cable takes then hopefully they can make it work for the fibre cable.

Edited by deleted (Wed 02-Oct-19 17:28:37)

I would have thought the install appointments would have been cancelled, as these normally only go ahead once the stage one rod and rope is confirmed complete.

Yes, they were "moved" rather than cancelled, but had the same effect.

Speaking with A&A it seems OR have asked for permission to dig, but haven't been able to find out who they need permission from, or where they need to dig! We're trying to get another copy of that PTD so I can chase with the local farmer/neighbours if indeed they've been approached.

Am I right in assuming that a FTTPoD order would have been stuck in the same way way as your regular FTTP provisioning?

Good luck getting things unstuck at the end of the month!

In reply to a post by MaxNRG:

Am I right in assuming that a FTTPoD order would have been stuck in the same way way as your regular FTTP provisioning?

There are many ways that an FTTPoD order can become stuck - trust me, I know

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by MaxNRG:

Am I right in assuming that a FTTPoD order would have been stuck in the same way way as your regular FTTP provisioning?

There are many ways that an FTTPoD order can become stuck - trust me, I know

*STOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE ARE NO BISCUITS*

Seriously though i can only imagine, but FTTP build would have more issues than FTTPoD

I know the delays are not ideal but hopefully Openreach will get it sorted, a little confusing with the duct starting a couple of feet from the pole which isn't good but if that's the route your copper cable takes then hopefully they can make it work for the fibre cable.

Civils team came a week ago, and added another couple of feet of ducting to bring it closer to the pole. Looks like a job I could have done myself, but they also roped the UG section from pole to footway box, so we're good to go for install...tomorrow! Will let you know how it goes.

Ha, Biscuits!!! I bought 2 packs of biscuits (milk choc digestives and custard creams). The engineer accepted the coffee but declined the biscuits - I had to eat them myself!

Install day today and we're fully up and working. Thanks to A&A for believing me when I told them that ducting was all in place and their persistence in asking OR to update their database records I now have a working 80/20 FTTP connection which is an amazing improvement from the 8/0.7 that I had before!

@Andrew, I've done a TBB speedtest on the new connection, so I'll wait for the maps to update to show that FTTP is available in this rural part of the Scottish Borders

Now just got to help the neighbours do the same!

In reply to a post by chrisdev:

Install day today and we're fully up and working. Thanks to A&A for believing me when I told them that ducting was all in place and their persistence in asking OR to update their database records

Well done chrisdev for your persistence and determination to get this issue sorted, enjoy the FTTP service you deserve it

Thanks dect, appreciated your support and advice!

In reply to a post by chrisdev:

Install day today and we're fully up and working. Thanks to A&A for believing me when I told them that ducting was all in place and their persistence in asking OR to update their database records I now have a working 80/20 FTTP connection which is an amazing improvement from the 8/0.7 that I had before!

Gratz, yeah we had to keep on at BT providing information (photos etc) that all the FTTP hardware was all in place, this took about 5 years before BT gave up and realised I wasn't going to give up.

We went from a 5Mbit ADSL2+ connection that would drop to 0 + line going dead when it rained heavily and was windy, so the jump from that old speed to now was like OMG

In reply to a post by chrisdev:

Now just got to help the neighbours do the same!

Yeah, I did the same for the neighbouring homes around me when I was resolving the issues for us (i.e. saving them coming out multiple times), in fact they ended up getting theirs done before us.

Basically you just need to talk to the right people to get things resolved, I had to go all the way to the CEO and Chairman's Office to resolve ours.

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

I had to go all the way to the CEO and Chairman's Office to resolve ours.

Paul

Of Openreach?

In reply to a post by Alucidnation:

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

I had to go all the way to the CEO and Chairman's Office to resolve ours.

Paul

Of Openreach?

Nope BT, this was 3 to 5 years ago.
I was sending emails, making phone calls, my local MP was doing the same.

At the moment Company House are showing the following Ownerships:

• Bt Group Plc (04190816) control Bt Group Investments Limited (04278695)
• Bt Group Investments Limited (04278695) control British Telecommunications Plc (1800000)
• British Telecommunications Plc (1800000) control Openreach Limited (10690039)

When I say control I am referring to them owning 75% or more of shares and voting rights of that company.

Which is also why the Openreach Site has the BT Copyright information and their emails have the BT footer in it.

But when I am looking into information for friends referring to fibre I do go directly to BT Openreach via a Twitter DM, but that's because they are the ones laying the infrastructure and BTCare and BT over the phone won't or may not have access to that information.

Paul

Yep, seems you really do have to 'fight' for it if you want to be sure of FTTP out of the BDUK programme. I have been engaged with the Community Fibre Partnership since 2016 and they were the ones who I lobbied to help get us and other postcodes included in the gainshare deployment (I'm not saying it was all me, but it helped show a need). Plus regular contact with the Scottish partnership director for Openreach and various other teams for updates and pressure. So it was bitter sweet to see it deployed to our lane but then be 2 houses too far away from the CBT. Just 4 weeks ago, Openreach were still saying December 2020, but I'm live now! Can you tell when I moved from DSL to FTTP from the BQM graph

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