Fibre First exchanges

Following on from the news "29 more areas added to Openreach full fibre roll-out plans" I went and had a look at the Openreach fibre first site

I see there that my local exchange (HALFWAY, in Glasgow) is already at "build in progress" state. So this means the exchange is being prepared for FTTP connections? I see a few exchanges in Edinburgh are now at the "programme build complete" stage. I know there's going to be a gap between the exchange being made ready and punters offered FTTP. Can we guess? Are folk in Edinburgh or other upgraded areas being offered FTTP?

Regarding "exchange being prepared": note that FTTP doesn't always go via your local exchange anyway. The fibre goes to Fibre Aggregation Nodes and then to a larger handover exchange where the Optical Line Termination equipment is.

The works to deliver FTTP are really all in the ground or on overhead poles.

Edited by candlerb (Wed 02-Oct-19 08:10:53)

https://labs.thinkbroadband.com/local/broadband-map#...

While there is work for the cabinets in the exchange to handle the handover of the fibre to the backhaul segments, the majority of the work is in the streets pushing/pulling/blowing the fibre to places it needs to be.

The map shows postcodes where people can order FTTP.
Whether the ISP are offering FTTP pro-actively is a different thing, most are not at this time i.e. it is down to individuals to upgrade themselves by starting an order. The bulk migration system is yet to be trialled in Salisbury.

Still quite confused by your map, as you know, Andrew. As I understand it, ANY postcode that does not have an overlay of FTTC COULD order FTTP, so why do some postcodes not show? PO20 7JP an example. The only 'broadband' is a miserable few mbps from BT or a stunning HSB wireless feed from Zoom Internet. Why is that postcode not on the map?
Q2: What are the black dots and the orange triangles?

Think they may have cocked the map up on the Openreach site, Salisbury is no longer showing anything at the moment! The map is only displaying 'Starting in the next 3 months' or 'Completed' phases.

Still waiting for the Ramsgate and Broadstairs build to start, no evidence of anything happening on Roadworks.org yet. Considering this was announced just over 2 months ago, I'd expect to see progress soon.

Don't understand your reasoning as to why PO20 7JP would be able to order FTTP. There is no FTTP there - not having FTTC does not automatically mean you can order FTTP.

I'm trying to work out the discrepancies between the Fibre Checker (postcode checker), the announced list of exchanges, and the map overlay.
I used to have - Fibre Checker says yes, announced exchanges says no, map overlay says no.
Now I have - Fibre checker says yes, announced exchanges says no, map overlay says yes.

So it seems to me that the fibre checker is looking the most into the future, but even map and exchange list don't match - and as has been said Exchanges and FTTP doesn't match anyway, so why announce lists of "exchanges" instead of areas?

There are some FTTP builds that might look like Fibre First style but are not Fibre First scheme, i.e. just general commercial e.g. Failsworth and Hunslet

Fibre First areas are different because of the 75% trigger for the start of migration plans ahead of WLR switch off.

Will look and pester

Are you confusing Fibre on Demand with native FTTP

We do not show fibre on demand because of the small matter of it costing a few thousand pounds to get installed i.e. outside the wallet of the majority

Black dots are postcodes, mentions this in a number of places. As for orange triangles, no idea as don't plot any triangles, need a look to where you are looking (they are likely part of the OpenStreetMap geography tiles e.g. some things like bus stops shows)

In reply to a post by ian72:

not having FTTC does not automatically mean you can order FTTP.

Indeed: whether or not you can order FTTP depends only on whether the FTTP network has already been built to a termination point just outside your property. It's completely separate from the copper network, and hence independent of whether or not you are in an FTTC area.

There is a special case of "FTTP on demand", but it works the opposite way round: if you are in an FTTC area you *can* order FTTPoD, and if you are not in an FTTC area, you cannot. FTTPoD is an expensive bespoke product where you pay Openreach to extend the FTTP network to your premises: it costs usually between £2K and £20K (+VAT). They only do 20 - 100 a month across the whole UK.

"Are you confusing Fibre on Demand with native FTTP " - no idea, Andrew. All I do know is that RH20 2LG has, as far as I know, 1 property receiving ?'FTTP'? and the other 26 or so properties are not. The fibre (poled) 'terminates' outside 1 property and 18 or so other RH20 2LG properties cannot have it without payment under a voucher scheme. It is the usual 'postcode confusion' so familiar with FTTC again and it is misleading to anyone trying to see what the prospects are. I appreciate it is not you causing the confusion, but I still feel that 'native OR FTTP available' is confusing. I really would seek a better way of showing the progress of fibre as it slowly and apparently erratically plods its way down country lanes. I know that Councils are little better informed by OR of what they are doing, which I would also suggest needs to improve. It has been necessary to telephone several properties along a nearby road to tell them that OR fibre is actually 'available' from the pole, as no-one seems to be doing so and they had no idea - seems to be a complete waste of a resource!

"whether or not you can order FTTP depends only on whether the FTTP network has already been built to a termination point just outside your property." - if this is so, then 20+ properties in that post code do NOT have 'OR FTTP available' or they probably would have taken it!.

Looks fixed now.

Where are you seeing that FTTP is available at RH20 2LG? That one property with that postcode has FTTP does not mean that FTTP is generally available as it might have been installed as a result of the property owner having paid what could have been a considerable sum for FTTP On Demand.

In reply to a post by MCM:

Where are you seeing that FTTP is available at RH20 2LG?

Address checker shows FTTP available at several properties in that postcode (Appletree Cottage, East View, Glencairn, Greenlands, Hillside, Junipers, Southway Stud, Thistledown Cottage) - but not at others.

Rural postcodes can cover quite large areas. But if the OP is close to any of the above, it might be worth a punt on FTTPoD.

"Where are you seeing that FTTP is available at RH20 2LG? - on Andrew's map?
"as it might have been installed as a result of the property owner having paid what could have been a considerable sum for FTTP On Demand. - negatory, Big Ben. Part of an OR fibre roll-out.

PO20 7JP is not showing FTTP as majority of premises(flats it looks like) in postcode cannot order GEA-FTTP service, in fact did not see any that could.

Can see 6 premises in RH20 2LG with GEA-FTTP to order, shows up on our checker probably due to a mistake in some data supplied by someone who said it was available in the postcode, i.e. better to not trust anyone it seems. A correction will happen when the processing for today takes place and maps in the next few days once the next render is uploaded.

If the words 'native OR FTTP' are confusing people, then feel free to come up with something just is 3 or 4 words like that tells people a FTTP service is available to order over the Openreach network without the need for excessively high installation fees.

candlerb - "if you are in an FTTC area you *can* order FTTPoD, and if you are not in an FTTC area, you cannot. " - therefore cannot.

Andrew - "If the words 'native OR FTTP' are confusing people, then feel free to come up with something just is 3 or 4 words like that tells people a FTTP service is available to order over the Openreach network without the need for excessively high installation fees."

Perhaps a note to say at some premise or premises in the Post Code. Regarding the 'installation fees' - the sad thing about this road is that many more premises could be covered solely by running fibre further along the existing road on the poles - no unblocking ducts, no 'blowing tho=ugh'. It should be extremely 'cheap' in relative terms. So far waiting over a month for a response to OR for 'costs'.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

candlerb - "if you are in an FTTC area you *can* order FTTPoD, and if you are not in an FTTC area, you cannot. " - therefore cannot.

Availability is determined at the level of individual properties. For example I can see several properties in PO20 7JP which can order FTTC, and explicitly show that FTTPoD is available.

Edited by candlerb (Wed 02-Oct-19 16:14:25)

I fear that information is misleading since no-one in that postcode would get a workable speed. It is about a mile from the cabinet.

Mmm not convinced about the change, particularly as our aim for FTTP is to only show it when the majority can order FTTP.

So your suggestion does nothing to help differentiate from FoD or GEA-FTTP

That depends what you mean by a workable speed. At 1 mile the speed could be around 20mbps which is perfectly workable for many.

If I could get 20meg I wouldn't have bothered with 4GEE (from which I only get around 20-30meg anyway).

So what exactly am I doing wrong with PO20 7JP?

Simple terms please.

It is a postcode served solely by cabinet 9, we warn VDSL2 is available but speeds likely to be below 24 Mbps. So gets a yellow dot for VDSL2/FTTP (i.e. Openreach fibre layer) representing a range of 4 Mbps to 23.99999 Mbps.

Deep dive gives estimate of 15 Mbps for VDSL2 and BT Wholesale say 11 to 24 Mbps and Ofcom says 80 Mbps to some but not all premises, but when you look at the individual premises is shows things like 29 Mbps.

OP here and a bit confused. After all those replies I still don't really know what a Fibre First exchange is or what it means.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

OP here and a bit confused. After all those replies I still don't really know what a Fibre First exchange is or what it means.

Basically a switch from more and more FTTC and G.Fast rollout by Openreach to pure FTTP. PR page.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Basically a switch from more and more FTTC and G.Fast rollout by Openreach to pure FTTP.

I think I was originally trying to ask: when an exchange is Fibre FIrst do most folk get the option of FTTP. Or is then another wait while the cable are laid. What are the experiences of areas which are now FF exchanges (as shown on the OR map)? Edinburgh for example has four completed FF exchanges.

The experience varies a lot, so its not 100% uniform FTTP at this time, difficult cases often get left but then sometimes do get done at a later date.

In terms of experiences, while some will bite your hand off to upgrade to FTTP as most Fibre First is in areas where they had a decent speed option already e.g. via VDSL2 or Virgin Media cable the vast majority are sitting tight and happy paying what they do now. This where being a Fibre First exchange differs from the usual commercial roll-out - Fibre First exchanges are at the vanguard of the larger ambitions and people will get migrated en-masse to FTTP.

Whitchurch Cardiff was one of the first to go live, and as such took a long time to get going. A large part was cabled up before any went live, about 60% was available when any went live then the rest as each pole was completed. Some is still being worked on as problems are solved. Flats were /are the last to be done but small blocks served by overhead were available when their pole gone live. Larger blocks have not all been completed yet, ( I assume due to landlord wayleave issues)

As it was rolled into further Cardiff exchanges it has gone live as each part was completed so now a rolling program by street / Pole . Not aware of underground rollout as it is not visible but assume it is the same.

There is now a significant area of the city covered and build is constantly expanding.

Hope this helps with your original question

In reply to a post by kitcat:

Hope this helps with your original question

Yes! Thank you! Maybe I'll see FTTP down our ducts in a few years rather than decades then!

This lot of 103 Fibre First areas are part of a wider 4 million target, which has a deadline of 31st March 2021, so should be within 18 months if its coming to you

You will have to keep an eye out for a Fibre contractor putting Splitters in Pavement boxes or pulling fibre cabling through duct. It was easy to identify on poles as you can see all the fittings but much harder on underground as you have to spot them working.

Only some of the work is likely to be done directly by OR, most appears to have gone to contractors. In Cardiff they have sped up significantly as they have learnt how to deal with all the different situation they can come across.

It is likely that they will be slow to start in Glasgow as they build experience up, unless they move people from Edinburgh to help coach anyone new.

I don't think you are doing anything wrong, Andrew, it is just that I am certain that 85% of the properties in that postcode get less than 5mbps. Why are they not able to 'order' FTTP via a voucher scheme? 1 mile away they can (Bracklesham).

andyhurley "That depends what you mean by a workable speed. At 1 mile the speed could be around 20mbps which is perfectly workable for many." A large number of people in my 'FTTC area' (not PO20) would be delighted by that 'news', but very disappointed. At 1 mile the speed is awful, as it is in PO20 - nothing like 20.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

Why are they not able to 'order' FTTP via a voucher scheme?

There's no such thing as "ordering FTTP via a voucher scheme". What there is, is to order FTTPoD (with or without a voucher), or form a Community Fibre Partnership (ditto).

FTTPoD is only available to areas served by FTTC. This is a coarse mechanism to restrict FTTPoD to areas which have fibre somewhere nearby. Community Fibre Partnerships are not subject to this restriction.

FTTPoD is also not available to MDUs (i.e. flats) - I'm not sure what view CFPs have on that.

Because voucher schemes are not services where fibre manifold has been delivered very close already to the property allowing an install in the normal sort of time frames.

The voucher schemes are more to do with Fibre On Demand or stimulating a provider who has no infrastructure in the area to deliver and if we were to flag postcodes where vouchers might deliver FTTP if someone was to order it and be happy to wait might be a year, then the FTTP coverage would very close to 100% of the UK.

OK - that is a lot clearer, Andrew. I don't think it is very clear to Mr G P how to go about getting it! Voucher or community scheme - how is he to know?

In the case of the RH20 the poled fibre ends a few hundred yards from many other properties and they (18/19 properties) are still waiting a response to the CF scheme. Over a month now.

https://gigabitvoucher.culture.gov.uk

Yes, Andrew - you can see we are all aware of that, but the question was how does Mr G P know what to do - which route to choose - voucher or community? Not helped by the usual government cock-up of screwing up the link to "Broadband for Rural Communities"

In reply to a post by mikejp:

Yes, Andrew - you can see we are all aware of that, but the question was how does Mr G P know what to do - which route to choose - voucher or community? Not helped by the usual government cock-up of screwing up the link to "Broadband for Rural Communities"

He will just have to decide for himself as he would with any other decision.

Rules of thumb:

1. if the OP is outside of FTTPoD coverage, then CFP is the only option. To find out, OP should put their phone number or exact address into dslchecker) and look for "FTTP on demand: available"
2. for Multi-Dwelling Units (MDU) or Multi-Occupancy Units (MOU), then again CFP is the only option.
3. if the OP is only interested in service for themselves, or maybe joining with one other property, then FTTPoD will be the simplest option.
4. if the expected costs are high, and the only option is to share costs between users and/or pool gigabit vouchers, then CFP will be the best approach.

The FTTPoD process is as follows.

1. You pick an FTTPoD provider and ask them for a free desktop quote. This will give you a near-random estimate of the cost, normally an over-estimate.
2. You place the order and pay £250+VAT. Openreach will perform a physical survey and tell you the final exact cost to be paid on top of this - this stage normally takes 2 or 3 months. Meanwhile, if you are eligible for a business gigabit voucher, you can apply for it.
3. You have 30 days either to accept the quote and pay the full amount (less gigabit voucher if approved), or to withdraw (and forfeit the original £250+VAT paid)
4. Openreach builds and delivers the service.
5. For the first year, you pay an elevated price (e.g. Cerberus: £100+VAT per month for 330/30)
6. After 12 months you can regrade to a regular FTTP service from any provider of your choice.

You cannot use residential gigabit vouchers for FTTPoD unless you are linking orders with a business, and linked FTTPoD orders make things complicated.

For CFP, the step-by-step process is described here. It's more complex but there is some flexibility, e.g. if your community wants to do some self-dig of ducts, this can be incorporated.

Since we know nothing about Mr G P and are talking via a proxy it is impossible to other any advice beyond saying perhaps they should contact some of the suppliers to see what they can offer

Wessex Internet Ltd
B4RN
Spectrum Internet LTD
Millennium Telecom Ltd
Openreach
Fibre Options Ltd.
Pine Media
G.Network Communications Limited
Ecom Fibre (Electronic Communities Ltd)
Box Broadband Ltd
WarwickNet Ltd T/A Glide Business
Fibre for Rural Nottinghamshire Ltd
Boundless Networks
TrueSpeed Communications Ltd
Airband Community
Cerberus Networks
Datacentres Ltd
Gigabair
6G Internet Ltd
Airfibre Limited
Lonsdale Network Services Ltd
TxRx Communications Ltd
IFB
The Comms Guys Ltd
VTSL Ltd

If the only name that is familiar is Openreach their scheme is at https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/community-...

One presumes they've tried Zoom and its wireless service already and it was not available.

Of course. 10/10 for helpfulness.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

Of course. 10/10 for helpfulness.

Looked helpful to me. Straight to the point.
Nobody else gets a chap at the door with someone explaining the options.

If there's no fibre present and fibre is desired then you need to be proactive and research or contact suppliers and ask for options, or wait for it to come.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

Of course. 10/10 for helpfulness.

I think the point that's being made is that anyone wanting to go down the FTTPoD or CFP route needs to put some leg work in to find out what's best for them as there is no one size fits all, worth saying the FTTPoD suppliers and CFP team are both very helpful but its not them who decides what's best for the end users.

No, john, but some of us have the internet and do not have to wait for a 'chap at the door'.

"If there's no fibre present" - so, John, what does Mr G P do to establish that? Lift a few manhole covers? Cast the tea leaves? It would be 'helpful', and "Straight to the point." if you give Mr G P a simple guide to find out? A really 'straight to the point' guide would be how to find out where the fibre is, but I appreciate no-one on this forum knows the answer. So, john. -what should he do, step by step? Tell me if you know.

dect - "CFP team are (both) very helpful " - 5 weeks and still no response? 'Very helpful'?

Once again, Mr G P has to think for himself just as he does for any other decision be it which car to buy or even which newspaper. He needs to do some research and think for himself. Few of us have been spoon fed throughout our lives, if you have count yourself lucky.

Perhaps I should add that I organised for our development of 75 properties all with long EO lines to get decent broadband. To do that I had to do quite a lot of work. Not only did I have to liaise with both BT and Hyperoptic and to get quotes. I also had to work with my neighbours and together we found the near £19K required. The entire project from start to finish took over three years with our finally being able to obtain decent speed connections in September 2016.

Edited by deleted (Fri 04-Oct-19 12:29:27)

In reply to a post by mikejp:

"CFP team are (both) very helpful " - 5 weeks and still no response? 'Very helpful'?

I found the CFP people extremely helpful. Shame if that's not everyone elses experience.

Nice little trick with the "Tell me if you know"

If you've got internet access why are you not searching this forum for answers as its an amazing resource and virtually every question has been asked and answered.

Edited by deleted (Fri 04-Oct-19 12:30:48)

In reply to a post by mikejp:

"If the words 'native OR FTTP' are confusing people...

Perhaps a note to say at some premise or premises ...

If you like precision in posts, I suggest you read this .

Checking for the future is a completely different ballgame.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 04-Oct-19 12:43:07)

In reply to a post by mikejp:

No, john, but some of us have the internet and do not have to wait for a 'chap at the door'.

"If there's no fibre present" - so, John, what does Mr G P do to establish that? Lift a few manhole covers? Cast the tea leaves? It would be 'helpful', and "Straight to the point." if you give Mr G P a simple guide to find out? A really 'straight to the point' guide would be how to find out where the fibre is, but I appreciate no-one on this forum knows the answer. So, john. -what should he do, step by step? Tell me if you know.

dect - "CFP team are (both) very helpful " - 5 weeks and still no response? 'Very helpful'?

My advice would be for him to do some research.
To not be rude when asking for help from others.
To not hijack unrelated threads on forums and act like the world owes them a favour.

It's not the fault of those in this (hijacked) thread that are offering to help you that the process isn't the easiest and there's no step by step guide.
An attitude like that doesn't help anyone, and will likely mean less people will want to help you.

I recommend creating your own thread. This had nothing to do with Fibre First.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

I fear that information is misleading since no-one in that postcode would get a workable speed. It is about a mile from the cabinet.

That's exactly where FTTPoD makes sense: where you within FTTC footprint, but get rubbish speeds on FTTC.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

5 weeks and still no response?

Have you filled in and returned the spreadsheet with the list of properties for the CFP?

Edit: sorry has MR G P filled in and returned the spreadsheet.

Edited by deleted (Fri 04-Oct-19 16:00:53)