Sky FTTP possible with new line?

Hi all,

Long story short, I'm migrating ISP to Sky - they've failed to take over the existing line from TalkTalk due to several issues between Sky's new SOGEA product and Openreach systems not talking to each other well.

In short their solution is to fit a new 2nd line and then I cancel TalkTalk's service separately... They've booked Openreach to attend in the next ~2 weeks to survey & install if possible the 2nd line and master socket...

Now I think this is too easy, but thinking out loud, is there any reason why if I already have FTTC (fibre to the cab) that if they pull a new line through, they can't pull a fibre cable through instead so I could have FTTP?

The technical part of my brain thinks, there is more than just pulling a fibre cable from the cab to my home - even if it is likely cheaper than the copper cable... I imagine there is more kit needed to be in situ @ my cabinet and other fibre nodes along the way - to be able to have FTTP for Ultrafast fibre?

I presume the latter is the actual reality, with the former just being a pipe dream or everyone would be asking for 2nd lines? Lol

Thanks in advance

Edited by Sparx92 (Wed 18-Dec-19 10:55:10)

You are dreaming...this second line is not going to be FTTP unless FTTP is already available to your address, i.e. some people do actually a choice of FTTC and FTTP (but it is a small number at this time)

If Sky orders a FTTC product then that is what gets installed.

Fibre cable may be cheaper per metre in some cases, but there will be spare copper pairs a lot closer to your home already. Also FTTP is not normally built out from the VDSL2 cabinet, but an aggregation node.

Yes you just confirmed what the more intelligent part of my brain was thinking... The younger excited side of my brain was just dreaming away. I thought as much!

Thanks anyway just wanted to throw the idea out of my head into writing for someone to clear up for me lol.

Yes we only have FTTC available for the last 5 years nearly now. No FTTP plans it seems, so stuck with 50Mb I live on a new build estate (6 years old) so wasn't sure if spare pairs are laid in the ducting or not, whether practices change or if it's standard I have no idea.

Frustrating as the other estates surrounding our ~200 homes all have Virgin Media too, stuck on average FTTC for another few years I imagine!

In addition to MrS's response Installing a second line may not require any new cabling to your house - the cable already installed probably has spare pairs and they will just connect a new socket to one of those.

I'm not completely au fait with 'spare pairs', but from what I recall when my master socket was replaced with the NTE5C - I didn't appear to have any spare cables than just 2+5 connected to the socket and the extensions within the house.

To make matters potentially awkward, all of my cable and ducting has been done underground - not even a junction box at the front of my house for some reason for OR to work with either.

Edited by Sparx92 (Wed 18-Dec-19 11:33:40)

Running a single pair of wires to a property is unusual, the copper wirings usually carry 2 or 3 pairs to allow for easy addition of second lines or faulty pairs

Underground wiring is more common than overhead

Each cable to each house should normally have a spare pair in it, sometimes its not obvious, or if a new cable is needed a simple tie it to old wire at one end and pull out old wire while pulling in new one that has two pairs.

Yes I understand underground is more common than overhead.

I meant to highlight the lack of junction box being a problem. As over the years I've had 2 engineers query where it was, so I had to tell them there wasn't one. So I presume it just makes life a touch more difficult to duct cables if necessary.

I'm probably just not versed enough and another pair will be there and easy to sort the 2nd socket anyway!

We shall see

I requested a second line as I was having issues with my first line, so I ordered my new line through BT and cancelled my existing TalkTalk line, when the engineer turned up I didn't have enough spare pairs, when I mentioned I was cancelling my existing line, he suggested using those pairs, when I said yes I thought he was going to hug me!! he was so pleased as all he had to do was swap cables in the local cabinet, took him 10 minutes and he even moved my master socket for me as it was in an awkward place.

I did take a new phone number as i wasn't sure if I could transfer my old one, but we use mobiles for everything so didn't mind.

A single UG direct in ground feed isn�t that unusual in properties, especially in the late sixties and early seventies.

Edited by Zarjaz (Wed 18-Dec-19 18:04:02)

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

A single UG direction ground feed isn�t that unusual in properties, especially in the late sixties and early seventies.

And let�s not forget Dropwire 11 which is currently the default overhead only has one pair.

Regardless, you know you could always just say to Openreach or their contractor that you aren�t bothered about the TalkTalk line and they can physically take it over. I did that loads of times when requested by the customer.

Agreed.

Well Sky rang me back this evening, it seems to fail at every hurdle. I can't get a break!

Sky explained OR have put the order on hold, as Sky's equipment is full from what I gathered in the exchange/cab whichever.

Apparently OR need to put more kit in for Sky which they can do fairly quickly(ish) - but they went from "we will expedite the order for you before Xmas or before New Year" to "we provisionally booked install for 6th January, but now it's probably going to be later than that" ...

Oh then I also got "if you also need a pair pulling through, that could delay it further too. Bearing in mind this has all been going on since 11th November I tried to move away from TalkTalk... Sky also reckon the reason they can't take over my line is because of TalkTalk's backend network somewhere still having a hold on my line...

Despite asking TT twice they say there is no cease, unsolicited hold etc or anything and it's Sky's issue (which I agree with).. So Sky's solution was the 2nd line, ask to cancel once the service is active - and they reckon TT will hit a snag cancelling my line, because of this cease/hold. But whatever.

I despair

Edited by Sparx92 (Wed 18-Dec-19 19:10:08)

Personally I think the "Sky can't take over the TT line" is one of porkies, but the equipment issue at the exchange is probably very real. You shouldn't need to have a 2nd line installed just to move from TT to sky.

Unless you have a good offer from sky I'd say ditch the provision.

Is it possible this a full VDSL2 cabinet issue i.e. while a migration does not need a free port when all ports are full this stops the migration process.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Is it possible this a full VDSL2 cabinet issue i.e. while a migration does not need a free port when all ports are full this stops the migration process.

I agree. I wish they�d use proper language though so people understand what is being said. Clearly we are not talking about �Sky�s equipment� here, and they are just confusing their own customers by saying that.

There is an outside chance that Sky has congestion issues and is waiting on a move from a 1 Gbps handover link to 10 Gbps handover link, but impossible to know from the vague language used.

If it is a VDSL2 cabinet issue then that should show up when looking on https://my.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/adsl.htm (use Address Checker) enter a postcode and select the correct address from the subsequent list.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

There is an outside chance that Sky has congestion issues and is waiting on a move from a 1 Gbps handover link to 10 Gbps handover link, but impossible to know from the vague language used.

That isn't Openreach's problem so shouldn't trigger an order being kicked back by them. Entirely down to Sky I believe. Openreach's switch will just briefly buffer then drop traffic.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

There is an outside chance that Sky has congestion issues and is waiting on a move from a 1 Gbps handover link to 10 Gbps handover link, but impossible to know from the vague language used.

And it's unlikely that ordering a second copper line, rather than taking over the Talktalk one, would make any difference in that case.

In reply to a post by Taras:

Personally I think the "Sky can't take over the TT line" is one of porkies, but the equipment issue at the exchange is probably very real. You shouldn't need to have a 2nd line installed just to move from TT to sky.

Unless you have a good offer from sky I'd say ditch the provision.

Potentially, I know I shouldn't have to have a 2nd line - I declined the offer twice as they kept pushing that as the solution. I think the exec/complaints team have got bored of my issue and struggle to find the root cause.

I was adamant they sort the takeover properly from TalkTalk, but after 4 weeks I've given up and just want to switch. I can't stand TalkTalk's poor network.

To give more context, the original order made on 11th November was progressing OK for a week. Apparently I was going to be put on Sky's new SOGEA network (where the phone goes to VoIP). It fell down after a week, when some idiot at Sky cancelled the original order - after I asked them to put me on the Black Friday deal which should've just been a billing change. Instead they cancelled the order and re-did it entirely.

Ever since that 1st SOGEA order was cancelled, I complained and escalated it to the Exec team - since then they've had every order rejected by Openreach's system. Apparently stating there is still an order pending on my line. We repeated this process 4 times, before they said the only option was to get a 2nd line. From what they explained, there excuse was 'teething issues' between Sky's order platform on the SOGEA product and Openreach's end.

The current chap I'm speaking to reckons TalkTalk have a hold somewhere when the 1st order was cancelled. But I'm not sure whether to believe this or not. He said the proof in the pudding would be when I ask TalkTalk to terminate my service and they hit an issue, as apparently this hold will stop them cancelling the line as well? Who knows........

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

There is an outside chance that Sky has congestion issues and is waiting on a move from a 1 Gbps handover link to 10 Gbps handover link, but impossible to know from the vague language used.

If it is a VDSL2 cabinet issue then that should show up when looking on https://my.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/adsl.htm (use Address Checker) enter a postcode and select the correct address from the subsequent list.

I can't give you any more detail than what I've expanded on above, that is the best I've heard from Sky's mouth on the issue.

BT's DSL checker states FTTC and SOGEA availability is 'Available' - not waiting list etc.

In reply to a post by CarlTSpeak:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

There is an outside chance that Sky has congestion issues and is waiting on a move from a 1 Gbps handover link to 10 Gbps handover link, but impossible to know from the vague language used.

That isn't Openreach's problem so shouldn't trigger an order being kicked back by them. Entirely down to Sky I believe.

Correct.