stuck in a FTTP dead zone

Hi All,

Our estate was built in 2017 before FTTP was being deployed widely in new-build developments. The estate opposite us has had FTTP for a long time as it was part of an initial early trial/digital scotland rollout.

I have been following the BT FTTP checker and mapping out areas that can or cannot get FTTP and noticed that half of the 'morgan way' estate can get service now.

The DSLAM for our estate is on the roundabout, so those at the very back of the estate have very poor (sub 30mbit) FTTC connections.

We approached openreach and asked for a FTTPoD quote - openreach suggested the black line as a possible route via telegraph poles, with an install cost of £13k (!) which we were not prepared to pay - and it only enabled some properties at one side of the back street rather than taking a more sensible route of enabling the whole estate.

the aggregation node is roughly where the black dot is.

Anyone know how to get openreach to consider enabling our estate? we seem to be the only area locally who does not have access to either virgin or FTTP, as there is a mass-rollout of both which unfortunately all seem to stop before the roundabout on the diagram!

Thanks

diagram - https://imgur.com/F8wBvuN

Edited by deleted (Sun 08-Nov-20 00:29:24)

FTTPoD provides a fibre DP(CBT) roughly at the location of your existing copper DP. Those served by your copper DP can then order FTTP.

Could it be that what you need to investigate is a Community Fibre Programme ?

https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/community-...

Edited by Zarjaz (Sun 08-Nov-20 06:34:49)

Anyone know how to get openreach to consider enabling our estate?

Some people have been successful at having a couple missed houses or a missed street added to an upcoming rollout, before work has started.
I'm not aware of anyone just asking OpenReach to FTTP their estate and getting anywhere.

If it were that easy everyone would have FTTP and nobody would pay for FTTPoD.

There's a very high possibility they will come do your part of the estate sooner rather than later.
It's fully ducted and easy pickings. Cheap and quick to roll out to.

They are doing a considerable amount of retro new build work which is basically revisiting new builds and adding FTTP.
The monthly tracking of the FTTP rollout that Andrew does on this site shows that the retro new build work is a large chunk of what OpenReach are doing and the pace of it is increasing.

Keep an eye on the fibre checker at OpenReach.com to see when your address is planned for FTTP.

If you can get enough people on your estate to put themselves forward for a CFP, then Openreach may proceed on a "demand-led" basis (i.e. no up-front cost). Being a modern estate with good ducting helps too.

99,99999% trying worng trying to do a FOD where there is a large community of premsies especially on a recent new build estate - you should be trying to do all of it via a demand led CFP

fod is normally 99.999% the wrong answer to the wrong question

openreach were not going to do this - instead they were intending to add a telegraph pole at the back of the estate and feed us drops from there with FTTPoD. we currently have underground copper fed down from the top of the estate.

will look at the community fibre partnership as I think we are also eligible for gigabit vouchers.

unfortunately this has now turned out to be very strange.

openreach have enabled the majority of our estate for FTTP now - except both sides of the street at the very end of our development (who are the furthest away from the FTTC cabinet!).

I suspect but have no evidence that this is due to poor ducting, as the end of the development appears to be missing a sensible layout of openreach manholes and some people had to have the estate dug up to add telephone lines.

does anyone know what layout is required to deploy FTTP? do the manholes need to follow a particular pattern for overlay?

due to only 10-15 houses now missing out out of 100+ how do we move forward from here?

Edited by deleted (Sun 12-Dec-21 18:13:29)

In reply to a post by wifigeek:

does anyone know what layout is required to deploy FTTP?

None in particular. If the underground infrastructure isn't good enough, then as has already been said on this thread, Openreach may install poles just to deploy FTTP.

If Openreach have decided that your part of the area isn't commercially viable for them to upgrade, then you may be out of luck; however it's not impossible that your area was missed out by accident. A polite E-mail to the Openreach CEO may be able to get a definitive answer.

In reply to a post by wifigeek:

due to only 10-15 houses now missing out out of 100+ how do we move forward from here?

If it turns out that Openreach have decided not to upgrade your area for commercial reasons, then you may be able to go the CFP route. Expect it to be expensive, unless you're in an area where gigabit vouchers are still available.

We approached openreach and asked for a FTTPoD quote - openreach suggested the black line as a possible route via telegraph poles, with an install cost of £13k (!) which we were not prepared to pay - and it only enabled some properties at one side of the back street rather than taking a more sensible route of enabling the whole estate.

That doesn't make sense. If the estate was built in 2017 then it will be all ducted and they would be using that rather than putting up a series of telegraph poles.

A lot of estates like yours are getting FTTP retro fitted by Openreach because they are what you might describe as "low hanging fruit", in terms of getting as many people connected as quickly as possible for the lowest possible cost. If it is only five years old there should be new ducting to use that is likely to be free of blockages which makes it much cheaper and quicker.

If you are sub 30Mbps you may well be in line for intervention from R100 even though you are in the central belt. What does this say?

https://www.scotlandsuperfast.com/how-can-i-get-it/c...

As other have suggested a community fibre scheme would probably be the right approach if the whole or most of the estate has poor broadband. What happens if you are in line for R100 intervention though who knows.

Edited by jabuzzard (Sun 12-Dec-21 21:54:00)

The "estimates" given by Openreach for FTTPoD often bear no resemblance to the final price you have to pay.

If you are prepared to gamble a non-refundable £250+VAT to place an FTTPoD order, then you may be eligible for the new trial pricing which started on December 1st:

* £1625+VAT if you're within 500m of an existing splitter which covers your property (i.e. they only need to add a new CBT)
* £2650+VAT if you're within 500m of an existing aggregation node, and they need to install both the splitter and CBT.

On top of this you'll be paying a higher monthly fee for the first 12 months, although after this you can recontract with either the same or a different ISP at standard FTTP rates.

Unfortunately there's no way of finding out whether you're eligible short of paying the non-refundable deposit.

In reply to a post by wifigeek:

I suspect but have no evidence that this is due to poor ducting, as the end of the development appears to be missing a sensible layout of openreach manholes and some people had to have the estate dug up to add telephone lines.

Are you saying the developer didn't install a copper/fibre line at all to some properties before they were built and occupied? That makes no sense because its a bit like saying the developer didn't bother installing power cables before people moved in.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

A lot of estates like yours are getting FTTP retro fitted by Openreach because they are what you might describe as "low hanging fruit", in terms of getting as many people connected as quickly as possible for the lowest possible cost. If it is only five years old there should be new ducting to use that is likely to be free of blockages which makes it much cheaper and quicker.

The estate I live on which the developer started building in 2014 had FTTP retro-built back in March this year. It's all ducted and took Openreach's subcontractor 3 days to install the CBT's and FTTP was available to order 2 weeks later.

In reply to a post by wifigeek:

unfortunately this has now turned out to be very strange.

I think its turning out to be not unusual. My situation is as you describe (minus the odd ducting issue). Newbuild, parts of estate fully fibered.

There's an expectation OR will cover 80% of the country by (?) 2025. My money is them telling the government how clever they've been, spent shedloads of cash but its just not worth their while doing the last 20%. Oh, unless you want to pay for that, thank you very much.

You estate and my estate appear to be part of that 20% already. Not in their 'commercial' plans.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

There's an expectation OR will cover 80% of the country by (?) 2025. My money is them telling the government how clever they've been, spent shedloads of cash but its just not worth their while doing the last 20%. Oh, unless you want to pay for that, thank you very much.

Well, yeah, what do you expect them to do? They have to draw the line somewhere. By definition if they're doing 80% it's not worth their while to do that last 20, presumably for financial reasons so some cash would do nicely.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

You estate and my estate appear to be part of that 20% already. Not in their 'commercial' plans.

Their already-announced plans don't cover anything near to 80%. That's to be expected - there's no point planning to a 5 year horizon, when plans that far out can't possibly be accurate. They make detailed plans for the next year or two, where they're actually building or about to build.

But the intention is to cover 80%, and that means the odds are 4 in 5 that you *will* be covered by end of 2026. If you are nearby to existing FTTP, and/or are in an "estate" with a high density of properties, and/or have modern ducting, then the likelihood is much higher. There's a big benefit to Openreach in being able to turn off *all* the copper in a given locality.

Are you saying the developer didn't install a copper/fibre line at all to some properties before they were built and occupied? That makes no sense because its a bit like saying the developer didn't bother installing power cables before people moved in.

that is exactly what I am saying. it may not sound plausible, but the ground workers on site are monkeys and lack of site manager oversight means the end result is a mess.

nobody bothers to do a proper inspection regime/inspect the builds anymore.

Edited by deleted (Fri 17-Dec-21 23:33:40)

That doesn't make sense. If the estate was built in 2017 then it will be all ducted and they would be using that rather than putting up a series of telegraph poles.

Indeed. I got a full survey from OR and this is precisely what the openreach engineer fed back - poles from over the wasteland as its the quickest path to the aggregation node. there may be a closer aggregation node now that the rest of the estate is enabled except my street though.

A lot of estates like yours are getting FTTP retro fitted by Openreach because they are what you might describe as "low hanging fruit", in terms of getting as many people connected as quickly as possible for the lowest possible cost. If it is only five years old there should be new ducting to use that is likely to be free of blockages which makes it much cheaper and quicker.

yeah.. which is precisely what has happened now - except my street

If you are sub 30Mbps you may well be in line for intervention from R100 even though you are in the central belt. What does this say?

https://www.scotlandsuperfast.com/how-can-i-get-it/c...

it says no such joy.. we can get 35mbit down, 5mbit up.

"A superfast connection has been built for your address.
The connection means you can get faster internet speeds. That’ll make it easier to video call loved ones, watch shows online, work from home and more.
"

As other have suggested a community fibre scheme would probably be the right approach if the whole or most of the estate has poor broadband. What happens if you are in line for R100 intervention though who knows.

as majority of the estate except one street is now enabled I suspect there would not be enough interest but might give it a go.

Edited by deleted (Fri 17-Dec-21 23:39:23)

we did do this and paid for the site survey it is sadly where our 13k+ quote came from and the openreach engineer suggested _not_ using the ducts. I might do it again now that majority of the estate is enabled. the checker originally said could not quote.

Edited by deleted (Fri 17-Dec-21 23:41:41)

In reply to a post by wifigeek:

I suspect but have no evidence that this is due to poor ducting, as the end of the development appears to be missing a sensible layout of openreach manholes and some people had to have the estate dug up to add telephone lines.

does anyone know what layout is required to deploy FTTP? do the manholes need to follow a particular pattern for overlay?

It's all on Google Maps. The layout of the Openreach joint boxes/manholes is as expected. The majority is fully ducted with BT66 junction boxes on the front of every home with a pavement.

It looks a little different on a couple of the cul-de-sacs on Forrest Place. They have no pavement. It's a monoblock road with a visible service strip at the front of the gardens.
Not every home appears to have a BT66 though Google Maps isn't the best way to tell.

Edit: correction. Looking again even that's all fully ducted. Openreach covers installed on the service strips on every cul-de-sac, both sides of the street.

Nothing that would stop an FTTP rollout.

Edited by j0hn83 (Sat 18-Dec-21 02:14:32)

Based on that diagram I've looked at the street next to the black and checked the postcode, seems like some can get full fibre, so just seems a bit odd that others can't.

Armadale is on the fibre build list for April 2021-December 2026
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/where-when...

Might be worth getting in touch with Openreach and double check to see if they have plans to expand over or get in touch with your local MSP!

In reply to a post by Bawlk:

or get in touch with your local MSP!

Telecoms are a reserved matter so one for the MP, not MSP.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

In reply to a post by Bawlk:

or get in touch with your local MSP!

Telecoms are a reserved matter so one for the MP, not MSP.

You better tell Holyrood to stop the R100 programme of you think MSP's have nothing to do with broadband availability.

I still see many examples of MSPs involvement having a fair bit success with Openreach.

In reply to a post by wifigeek:

we did do this and paid for the site survey it is sadly where our 13k+ quote came from and the openreach engineer suggested _not_ using the ducts. I might do it again now that majority of the estate is enabled. the checker originally said could not quote.

Given the nature of the replies above which suggest there is nothing wrong with the duct infrastructure on your part of the estate, and that FTTP has now been enabled in the other parts, it would be worth raising again with Openreach via their availability checker enquiry form

Within the enquiry form reason, use the dropdown selection "I cannot get fibre but my neighbours can". You ought to get a meaningful response within a week to ten days. Failing this you could raise with the executive complaints team via the CEO's office.

awesome! will give that a go - thanks

we did this and got this back -

We don't have any plans to upgrade your area right now and the neighbours who are getting fibre have different routing, but we can keep you up to date when things change. To receive any future updates please go to our fibre checker, input your postcode, chose your address from the drop down, then scroll past the availability information and complete the Gigabit Fibre form and we’ll update you once plans change. www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband.



If you want to bring fibre to your property sooner, you could look at the option of Fibre to the Premises (FTTP) on Demand. FTTP on demand is a product which a few select service providers offer, which will give you a full-fibre FTTP broadband, as a bespoke installation direct to your premises. It is available across the UK – even in areas that cannot reliably get FTTC.

I already had a FTTPoD quote from a year or two ago where they wanted to run telegraph poles over wasteland to us at a cost of £13k+ when the ducting exists on the front of the estate. In the same estate 4 or 5 doors down can get FTTP and a manhole exists between them and us.

In reply to a post by wifigeek:

I already had a FTTPoD quote from a year or two ago where they wanted to run telegraph poles over wasteland to us at a cost of £13k+ when the ducting exists on the front of the estate. In the same estate 4 or 5 doors down can get FTTP and a manhole exists between them and us.

Then you are quite likely to be able to get service under the reduced-rate near network trial, which runs until end of May. If you are, the price could come back as £2,620+VAT (example 1, example 2) - or more if a new splitter is required.

However to find out if you're eligible, you'll have to pay the non-refundable £250+VAT survey fee. Desktop quotes are unable to take the near network trial in to account - and desktop quotes are usually way out anyway.

(And if they still decide that they still need to reach you via the poles over the wasteland, then you've wasted the money)

Edited by candlerb (Tue 01-Feb-22 19:44:22)

does the near-network trial cover duct/underground or only overhead?

They don’t discriminate.

Just pointing out that ducted underground cabling is OK but Direct Buried Cables (DIG) is excluded from the trial.

See exclusions in Near Network Trial

Good point (for clarity for other possibly interested readers) but for the OP on a ducted estate built in 2017 then if the other criteria are met, then DIG ought not to be in the equation.

On the other hand, the “civils work” carve-out (in the OPs case telegraph poles) which would be required if they pursued the other route across the wasteland, so could be knocked out on those grounds, even if the other near network criteria are met.