Openreach Exchange Closures

We've seen Openreach announce that 4,600 exchanges will close.


Is there a list of which ones anywhere?

Only the 1st 100 due to commence in the next decade
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/12/openre...
Going to be a long program

Quite a few central and suburban London exchanges in that list. That's going to be some programme. Good luck to them

I can’t get my head round it anyway, as BT own the exchanges, not Openreach. I can’t work out if it’s BT or Openreach leading this.

If Openreach switch off their kit that doesn’t mean the exchange closes. I can tell you that in a lot of those exchanges most of the kit in there has nothing to do with Openreach.

Some of these exchanges have recently built metro nodes where the EE masts connect to amongst other things....

They are actually leased

In theory openreach could exit a building and leave anything else behind.
With wlr going in a few years and the local loop rapidly moving to fibre that doesn't leave a lot behind bar ethernet (more fibre) and some legacy private service kit that is openreach responsibility.
Everything else is either BT Group or OLOs.
Giving up all that floor space may be enough to make it worth while and then let rest follow to close the building and hand it back.

Sorry yes I know they’re leased, but frequently forget that.

BT Group is the one leasing back the sites. Not Openreach, so if you think of it that way my question still stands. I’m intrigued who is leading this vacation.

In reply to a post by witchunt:

In theory openreach could exit a building and leave anything else behind.
With wlr going in a few years and the local loop rapidly moving to fibre that doesn't leave a lot behind bar ethernet (more fibre) and some legacy private service kit that is openreach responsibility.
Everything else is either BT Group or OLOs.
Giving up all that floor space may be enough to make it worth while and then let rest follow to close the building and hand it back.

Yes exactly, I imagine Openreach pays a rental on the space to BT Group, it must work that way. So even if Openreach move out they’re still saving on their budget.

I’m seeing the same list though in the wider group which is making me wonder if actually it’s not Openreach leading this anyway. Who knows!

Edited by _Icaras_ (Wed 20-Jan-21 11:56:37)

There are some interesting names in there!. I can foresee that some will be taken out when they come to the detail.

Sth Kensington will be interesting as BT have already closed at least 3 exchanges into it. So it hosts 4 exchanges and covers a large areas of West London. .

Icarus

Accounting wise buildings are badged to OR . Most usages are OR products mandated by OFCOM, (LLU, Backhaus, Cable ties, etc.) so it is only Metro/Core nodes that the space is rented by BY Wholesale. .

In reply to a post by kitcat:

Icarus

Accounting wise buildings are badged to OR . Most usages are OR products mandated by OFCOM, (LLU, Backhaus, Cable ties, etc.) so it is only Metro/Core nodes that the space is rented by BY Wholesale. .

LLU products aren't OpenReach products.
LLU kit is owned by BT Wholesale and the other LLU operators.

The space LLU equipment takes is rented/leased by BT Wholesale, Sky, Talktalk etc.

In reply to a post by witchunt:

Only the 1st 100 due to commence in the next decade
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/12/openre...
Going to be a long program

There are a few exchanges on that list that were the busiest in the world for private wires in their day, the likes of DC5, DC10, AC15, Fig 1, Fig 2 and Fig 6 circuits which I assume have long since gone now.

john83

The Products taken are all from OR, colocation space etc and they are all Regulated and Mandated by OFCOM. The space is all OR's the rents are paid at regulated rates to OR.. Some buildings do not have any OR kit in these are Badged to Wholesale but they are few and far between. ( They have no MDF or local access in).

I read your comment as the LLU falls under OR so no rent of space.

I see you were making a point that some buildings are leased to BT Wholesale rather than OpenReach.

I view in flat mode and there was no quotes on your post. Reading it again without the context of the post your were replying to i would make the same assumption.

Indeed - but beyond that first 100 - which other ones?

That's it for now.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

john83

The Products taken are all from OR, colocation space etc and they are all Regulated and Mandated by OFCOM. The space is all OR's the rents are paid at regulated rates to OR.. Some buildings do not have any OR kit in these are Badged to Wholesale but they are few and far between. ( They have no MDF or local access in).

This is interesting. Some of those buildings listed I know well and the majority of kit inside is BT, not Openreach. MUAs are surely BT’s areas though? And can be vast in size.

Edited by _Icaras_ (Thu 21-Jan-21 08:46:53)

In reply to a post by heathrow:

Indeed - but beyond that first 100 - which other ones?

Im not sure you’d see an announcement soon on that. As I read it’s simply a “consultation” for now, and they’ve given themselves the best part of 10 years to action it. The talking and planning could take some years.

However given their lease deadline, they may decide to accelerate the process of this first 100 (depending on the complexities involved). The majority or indeed all of the 4600 may well be done earlier than the deadline they’ve announced for the first 100, based on the intimation is that closure of the 98% remainder *could* be accelerated. Still its a massive programme of work - close to 500 exchanges per year if they really want out by 2031.

Legacy telcos around the world would be undertaking similar programmes, as last mile delivery technology undergoes huge transformational change

Icarus

BT kit as in PSTN will supposedly all be gone by 2025, ( Great for scrappies!)

BT ADSL kit is also on the way out with a push to FTTC / FTTP in the same timescales. BT Retail is trying to supply all BB over FTTC / FTTP where it is available which will be most if not all these sites.

Only EO lines to be addressed to remove all ADSL, which certainly happened in Chelsea when it closed

Only BT kit left is PC and metro/core. PC in London are mainly ethernet / fibre and most are no longer with BT. Just the Metro/core to sort which can be done as the existing kit goes obsolete over the next 5 years..

PC?


Presumably with PSTN switch off all the System X/Y kit goes in the bin?

Private circuits.

Presumably with PSTN switch off all the System X/Y kit goes in the bin?

If they cant sell it on to some developing country then there is going to be some scrap value . Must be some gold contacts and copper that can be recovered. Maybe other valuable metals.
Must be a few tons of steel and aluminium in the racks and cable trays.

Edited by witchunt (Thu 21-Jan-21 17:52:36)

Can't imagine many banana republics queuing up for that. Most have developing countries with minimal fixed line infra have jumped straight to mobile and Voip...but you never know.

Ass the scrappie says, how much does it weigh.

There will be some demand for the old equipment - mainly for spares.


The electronics will certainly be recycled and the metals extracted - BT will see some revenue but the processing costs are high. The big revenue stream will come as they recover the large underground cables which can be pulled out in tong lengths and sold on for the copper. Various estimates around for the value of the copper although most are based on new prices rather than scrap.

Presumably the way to address EO lines is to stick a couple of cabinets outside the exchange?

In reply to a post by heathrow:

Presumably the way to address EO lines is to stick a couple of cabinets outside the exchange?

FTTC (ie cabinets on street) and FTTP are fed from the same fibre network originating from a GEA Headend exchange. This is not likely to be your “local” exchange, which serves the EO lines. It’s a common misconception.

In reply to a post by heathrow:

Presumably the way to address EO lines is to stick a couple of cabinets outside the exchange?

Yes.
They even do (or did) this on smaller exchanges without fibre services.

It really is the best/easiest place to install a new cabinet. All the copper meets there anyway. There's usually power. If no fibre for miles, there's usually ducting linking the exchange to the Head-End.

It's only useful for Exchange Only lines close enough to the exchange though.

I'm not sure how much FTTC is being installed now.
The preferred upgrade for EO lines will be FTTP if possible.

Most of the exchanges that make sense to put an FTTC cabinet outside will probably have 1 by now.

witchunt

Under 'normal' circumstances the scrap value is positive for BT, scrap merchants pay BT quite well to remove it from site. at odd times scrap value drops ( pandemic) and this is not true, at others it goes through the roof and it is a veritable gold mine!

I would think that the ADSL kit is also worth quite a bit due to the increased rare earth content certainly the original generations were when they were replaced in 2012-2015.

Done by sample assay, generic weight and then scrap frims bid for the pleasure of removing it. Can be done by auction highest bid wins or in a big programme spread out to use all the capacity.

When BT did the first major recoveries it used ALL the specialist scrap capacity in the UK. Then had to spread the programme so the scrap merchants could cope ( depressed the price as well!) .

Usually they are spread around the streets as this gives
a, better speeds and
b, you can't have that many cabinets in one place.

Many London exchanges have 1000s of EO lines so a lot of Cabs required.

Chelsea was a trial of sorts for this when is was closed.

Indeed. Like any good farmer knows, you don't take all your scrap to the merchant when the price is low, you sit on it and wait.

Obviously London is a special case in terms of density, but do you know how was it tackled in Chelsea? Presumably the old exchange doesn't have a carpark full of FTTC cabs.

Well Chelsea exchange as it was didnt have a car park at all. Its was in a residential road so that was a non starter.
The cabs are scattered around as you'd otherwise expect.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

Icarus

BT kit as in PSTN will supposedly all be gone by 2025, ( Great for scrappies!)

BT ADSL kit is also on the way out with a push to FTTC / FTTP in the same timescales. BT Retail is trying to supply all BB over FTTC / FTTP where it is available which will be most if not all these sites.

Only EO lines to be addressed to remove all ADSL, which certainly happened in Chelsea when it closed

Only BT kit left is PC and metro/core. PC in London are mainly ethernet / fibre and most are no longer with BT. Just the Metro/core to sort which can be done as the existing kit goes obsolete over the next 5 years..

There’s a lot more BT kit other than Metro/Core in large exchanges though. As I say MUAs have all sorts in there.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by heathrow:

Presumably the way to address EO lines is to stick a couple of cabinets outside the exchange?

Yes.
They even do (or did) this on smaller exchanges without fibre services.

It really is the best/easiest place to install a new cabinet. All the copper meets there anyway. There's usually power. If no fibre for miles, there's usually ducting linking the exchange to the Head-End.

It's only useful for Exchange Only lines close enough to the exchange though.



I'm not sure how much FTTC is being installed now.
The preferred upgrade for EO lines will be FTTP if possible.

Most of the exchanges that make sense to put an FTTC cabinet outside will probably have 1 by now.

Certainly this has happened in rural areas. Here's Dawes Green exchange in Surrey - a glorified shed. Swing the camera around - spot the FTTC cabinet https://www.google.com/maps/uv?pb=!1s0x4875e5c80daf5...

(I'm old enough to remember when DG had 3 digit numbers - mid 1980s before Dorking went digital)


The Seven Stars pub nearby is quoted a minimum rate for FTTC of 74 Mbps..

Edited by heathrow (Sat 23-Jan-21 16:06:08)

Think about it:

a) At the group level, BT has the Telereal leases expiring in 2030. You'd expect rents to shift up.

b) PSTN switch off in 2025 means that you need a lot less space - all the PSTN kit goes. FTTC/P lines will be parented off handover exchanges. Only ADSL/SOGEA lines will still run to those exchanges.

c) For small rural exchanges there's unlikely to be third party kit in them...


So many exchanges are now irrelevant,

One question though - how does OR/BT handle lines which are ADSL based - i,e not served by FTTC and not FTTP?

heathrow

BT is moving away from ADSL, it is no longer promoted for non EO lines on the BT site and they try to only provide it on EO lines where there is no choice.

Where they close an exchange ( a la Chelsea) and provide FTTC cabs across the area the EO ADSL customers are moved to the equivalent package via FTTC (or FTTP).

Once PSTN is turned off this is even easier as you do not need to move the Cu pairs to another exchange just do an AO transfer in the new cab and cut the copper. This is far cheaper than having to run new cables to a distant exchange site!

A lot of MUA kit is LLU so not BT equipment,

There was a lot of old PC kit that is no longer in use, but it is all mixed up with working circuits at present. With the race to ethernet it is assumed that this will all be gone by 2025. The fun is finding the 1 working circuit that has been forgotten about usually a Utility monitoring line or alarm circuit!

I understand that - but what's the plan for very long lines which are miles from either the cabinet or the exchange?

In reply to a post by kitcat:

A lot of MUA kit is LLU so not BT equipment,

The big LLU players are already moving people over to FTTC (e.g. Talktalk charges the same for both). I think the assumption is that in a few years they won't want to run their own ADSL kit any more, as the small number of users won't justify the cost of the exchange hosting and backhaul.

In reply to a post by heathrow:

I understand that - but what's the plan for very long lines which are miles from either the cabinet or the exchange?

I presume these are currently getting below USO speeds (10 Mbps). Therefore they'd look at USO solutions: possibly 4G, possibly FTTP. By 2025 geographical 4G coverage should be much higher than it is today, and several Starlink-type services may be available.

In the long term I don't see any operator maintaining in-exchange DSLAMs to provide ultra-slow DSL to a handful of lines.

Very slightly off topic (?), but is the a USO for a telephone service, especially for those who live far from their nearest exchange and can't have broadband? All they want is a phone line, in other words a POTS.

There are plenty of places where mobile coverage is poor, so not an option.

I am thinking of when the PSTN service closes.

Cheers!

There, there is still a USO for a phone service.

In reply to a post by MHC:

The electronics will certainly be recycled and the metals extracted -

Of course, electronics comes under the WEE regulations.

As for exchanges disappearing I'd imagine like most things, their use has evolved. Once you needed a big room for a computer, now they really are miniscule. OR/BT usage isn't any different. Size matters. I would be surprised if the bean counters don't look at building costs all the time. Nothing special about exchanges.

But maybe what popped through my letterbox is a sign of why there will be a speed up of exchanges vanishing. Although I get 78Mb/s (FTTC), I see the 7 villages around these parts are to get FTTP (up to 1Gb options) with VOIP (if you need a phone) as the option for making calls. TBH I haven't made any calls via copper in years. Like ADSL, its old tech. And new equipment etc tends to be smaller, leaner.

How will that phone service be provided with PSTN closure?


4G?

heathrow

Most of these will have AIO cabs or FTTP provided. Those already miles from the exchange are likely to be provided with 4G service to meet USO and the voice will also run over the data path is required ( usually when someone wants a POTs only). In reality the voice is already over the data on 4G for the mobile service.

But most of the exchanges to close early on are big (valuable) city centre exchanges so they don't have lines miles from the exchange or cab. (The first 100 are all big city or London sites). The small rural ones are only likely to go when all lines are already FTTP / FTTC post 2030 they are also not worth much as only cost less than £1000 year in rent.

Heathrow

Yes, where there is no FTTC / FTTC the USO voice will be over Mobile. The BT VOIP system was being designed to use exactly the same call control as the mobile last I heard. So the service is agnostic to the transmission medium.

Telecoms is really no different to computing and the long term shift was to miniaturisation and now more recently to virtualisation. Voice ‘switching’ once a very physical thing requiring actual physical hardware can all be done in software often hosted elsewhere or virtualised itself. So the physical space and footprint required shrink massively.

At the same time the move to converged IP everything and smart personal devices, the general model has shifted from centralised to distributed or “peer-to-peer”. Voice and video is packetised and streamed and can be transported, stored, duplicated and manipulated like any other stream of data.

Finally the shift away from (lots of) copper to (a tiny relatively, fraction of aggregated) fibre in the last mile really means that a plethora of small local exchanges aren’t required. One exchange site can now serve a physical area covered by a dozen smaller exchanges.

I think a few of you are guilty of thinking far too much about BT as a residential broadband company only.

There’s tonnes of stuff going into exchanges and already there that has nothing to do with residential broadband or really even broadband. Large city centre exchanges especially so. You’d be surprised what connects into these exchanges, what’s on the rooftops etc, maybe you aren’t aware of what a lot of the kit is, but I am and it’s going to cause havoc to close some of the exchanges, really is.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

A lot of MUA kit is LLU so not BT equipment,

....and a lot of MUA kit is not LLU.

Edited by _Icaras_ (Sun 24-Jan-21 21:28:25)

The rooftops either have microwave links or macrocells for mobile networks.

BT faces the challenge that the Telereal leases end in 2030 - and no doubt the rents will reset upwards.

It starts to get very expensive - particuarly for exchanges which are in high value areas. I'm sure clearing an exchange isn't easy.

Particularly if mobile operators dig their heels in on code powers.

There’s more than what you’ve mentioned on the rooftops actually, and more going on rooftops soon.

In reply to a post by _Icaras_:

There’s more than what you’ve mentioned on the rooftops actually, and more going on rooftops soon.

Oh do tell

Haha, nah you’re ok. I have a job to keep.

In reply to a post by _Icaras_:

Haha, nah you’re ok. I have a job to keep.

Spy Gate

Reminds me of all the talk about the BT Keybridge House building in SW8 and what actually went on in there

There was another building in the City, the doors were locked, rubbish in the entrance, windows had 1cm of grime and it looked unoccupied.

To get in, you went into the adjacent building, up to the 5th floor, found the sandwich/coffee machine and went through the door of a cleaners cupboard tucked away to one side. Then you could go down to the 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 1st and basement - Ground was unoccupied to keep the outward appearance.

In reply to a post by MHC:

There was another building in the City, the doors were locked, rubbish in the entrance, windows had 1cm of grime and it looked unoccupied.

To get in, you went into the adjacent building, up to the 5th floor, found the sandwich/coffee machine and went through the door of a cleaners cupboard tucked away to one side. Then you could go down to the 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 1st and basement - Ground was unoccupied to keep the outward appearance.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AyS5cHO6JN0

Sounds like quite a lot of exchanges. Last week I was on the 2nd floor but locked in an area that I couldn’t get out of without going up to the 6th floor using the stairs, through an abandoned office, to the other side of the building and then down the stairs to the ground. I’m sure Zarjaz can relate!

Most of the exchanges are in a terrible state.

I wouldn't want to tread on the rotten roof. Leaking and damaged from where the heating has been removed. It's only the asbestos, cobwebs, undergrowth and accumulated rubbish holding most of them together..

Sounds like a dodgy landlord hasn't been keeping on top of the upkeep and maintenance...

Who needs a roof?

http://www.lamont.me.uk/capenhurst/original.html

A friend of mine who worked at Capenhurst at the time said the staff there were amused by the numbers of BT vans which ysed to go there,

Cheers!

Everything is outsourced. The building maintenance is done by CBRE, and they’re rubbish.

In reply to a post by Ancient_Mariner:

Who needs a roof?

http://www.lamont.me.uk/capenhurst/original.html

A friend of mine who worked at Capenhurst at the time said the staff there were amused by the numbers of BT vans which ysed to go there,

Cheers!

Interesting! And I’ve read about that building before. But if the rumours are correct it was a government tower tapping BT’s microwave link. So there wouldn’t be BT vans anywhere near it. I’m sure the BT vans were in Capenhurst due all the time due to the poor quality of the network round there.

Anyway-you’re all reading a bit too much into what I said!

Edited by _Icaras_ (Mon 25-Jan-21 21:09:09)

In reply to a post by _Icaras_:

Anyway-you’re all reading a bit too much into what I said!

OK Mr Bond

Keybridge house was great. Disappear down the ramp , 2 sub level car parks, a storage tunnel. Mezzanine floors. Huge canteen on the 10th floor with a great view across the Thames. Even had a bar until the early 90s. Short walk to the Queen Anne if you fancied that sort of thing.
Some people outside must have thought we were all spies on our way to the MI5 building underground.
Little did they know part of it was occupied by a bank.

Edited by witchunt (Tue 26-Jan-21 09:17:09)

Never really got to use any of the facilities in Keybridge house sadly, Most of the time I was there during the night to pick up maintenance kits and/or stores.

It was a building lost in time. Looked grotty as a run down council estate on the outside, not much better inside, but was a real mystery tour going round it. So many hidden rooms. Baynard house was similar.
Looked like it never went past privatisation, perennially stuck in the early 80s.

In reply to a post by witchunt:

Baynard house was similar.

I remember Baynard House fondly from my days working for BT and with Faraday opposite and Dominant House where the Salvation Army is now Queen Victoria Street was a busy road for BT buildings.

Edited by deleted (Tue 26-Jan-21 16:14:06)