CFP questions

Openreach say no plans, pay us with CFP if you want FTTP.

Its an urban area so no gigabit vouchers. Before I email the CFP people at OR, what sort of cost have people been seeing? There are a couple of hundred houses in my urban estate, all new with ducts and FTTC. The lucky ones have 70 Mbps, lots 40, plenty 30. A dozen actually have full fat gigabit FTTP...

Edited by Woolwich (Wed 20-Jan-21 16:29:19)

Really depends - The more houses, the lower per mile cost is the basic formula offer.

Openreach will cover their commerical scope costs, so if on the border of plans already or within their existing remit.

We've got a CFP progressing at the moment with 116 properties at a £58k cost to the community with the remaining costs being covered by OR. This is for a rural CFP which means it's stringing fibre around 3/4km from the AG Node.

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

We've got a CFP progressing at the moment with 116 properties at a £58k cost to the community

What sort of speeds do these houses have now? I guess for £500 they're going to want to see a real improvement. My concern is plenty people near me already have 70 - 80 Mbps...

STOP PRESS: Turns out OR do have plans to build in a couple of streets. I can't work out their planning decision. So now there's fewer houses, so greater cost?

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

We've got a CFP progressing at the moment with 116 properties at a £58k cost to the community

What sort of speeds do these houses have now? I guess for £500 they're going to want to see a real improvement. My concern is plenty people near me already have 70 - 80 Mbps...

STOP PRESS: Turns out OR do have plans to build in a couple of streets. I can't work out their planning decision. So now there's fewer houses, so greater cost?

We have 2 Cabinets - 1 main one and 1 infill, which delivers mix of speeds from 80 - 5 mpbs, so this CFP scheme is designed to fix that and offer 1gbps to all of these properties.

If OR already have plans in place it may make your cost cheaper, since they're already planning works and any spine works, but of course it's all subject to survey. Theres no harm in signing up via the website and getting a quote.

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

Theres no harm in signing up via the website and getting a quote.

How many other neighbours do you need as a start, to make it worth getting them to quote? (I know its at least one other, but at this point are they just looking at your street or do you say "I think some folk in the next street night be interested too"?

I don't think anyone nearby has anything lower than 30Mbps.

Edited by Woolwich (Wed 20-Jan-21 18:05:06)

Before Covid came along you would have been best knocking on doors and finding out who was interested and willing to contribute and then creating your list of properties from that. I really don't know the best way now.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

Theres no harm in signing up via the website and getting a quote.

How many other neighbours do you need as a start, to make it worth getting them to quote? (I know its at least one other, but at this point are they just looking at your street or do you say "I think some folk in the next street night be interested too"?

I don't think anyone nearby has anything lower than 30Mbps.

The approach i took was to get a few parties interested and then we put in the details for the whole village just to see what the cash amount would be. OR then put a bigger list of houses together that was on the route to my village and subsequently increased the amount they would cover.

Once we got the quote, i did a mailshot to all 116 houses and we got a good response level on the OR demand led scheme

seeing if you got a local residents association , community , town facebook page and see what response you get that way

Probably irrelevant numbers considering it will vary wildly by location, but I opened a CFP query about six months ago to look at the costs of providing FTTP to five properties in a suburban location, all on underground ducted feeds and it came back at £15k

Edited by jpm (Wed 20-Jan-21 21:32:33)

Yes, people occasionally moan the local Facebook. I really don't want to start something if the answer is going to be a couple of grand. Aren't vouchers worth £1500 and then its whatever - £500? - on top. So with no vouchers it might be £2000. That's not an amount I can put my hands on right now and I guess most others would be in the same situation given the situation.

That's the trouble, not knowing the price of an unknown length of string. Or, if you have to ask, you can't afford...

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

I really don't want to start something if the answer is going to be a couple of grand.

How will you know if you don't try????

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

Yes, people occasionally moan the local Facebook. I really don't want to start something if the answer is going to be a couple of grand. Aren't vouchers worth £1500 and then its whatever - £500? - on top. So with no vouchers it might be £2000. That's not an amount I can put my hands on right now and I guess most others would be in the same situation given the situation.

That's the trouble, not knowing the price of an unknown length of string. Or, if you have to ask, you can't afford...

And equally, if you apply for a CFP and provide a list of people who would take FTTP if it were available, Openreach might turn it into a "demand-led" scheme and/or add it to their existing rollout you have found.

You have to be in it to win it.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Openreach might turn it into a "demand-led" scheme and/or add it to their existing rollout you have found.

Tell me more about how/when/why OR might decide not to take our cash and make a CFP "demand led". Need to know this stuff to be in a position to explain to the neighbours.

Hi

I submitted a CFP scheme last year for my street and the next one as none of the village has FTTP. I wanted to keep it fairly small and it was 60 houses in total and with some door knocking and mailshots from Superfast South Yorkshire I managed to get 30 houses prepared to sign up ( most of the houses were getting 30Mb max ).

BT OR came back with a initial quote of £201k "gap" to cover the 30 houses so we had a shortfall of 150k after the vouchers were taken into consideration. That meant it was a non starter as would have meant over 3k contribution per person, I never even bothered asking.

After a long chat to the BT OR Rural Engagement Manager overlooking the scheme we discussed submitting a quote for the entire village to see what it came out at. I then sat plugging away getting all the postcodes for the village and sat on the portal and added every one, 721 in total.

Surprisingly when they came back to me the quote was £460k "gap" to enable the entire village, the cost property had dropped a lot.

So, we decided this was worth a try and it went back to BT and due to the size of it has now been picked up as a demand led scheme. There is a further 30%uplift added to the above figure now taking it to 598k as BT are effectivly taking on the risk and there is no CIC required and BT are assisting with the marketing side also.

So looking at the above I need around 400 out of the 720 houses to take it up ( assuming residential only ) to hit the figure.

We are at the stage now of gaining approval from the DCMS regarding the vouchers and then the website should be live in a couple of weeks.

That will be when the real hard work will start. Its not going to be easy as door knocking isnt really an option now but I am going to give it my best shot

In reply to a post by tikka69:

There is a further 30%uplift added to the above figure now taking it to 598k as BT are effectively taking on the risk and there is no CIC required and BT are assisting with the marketing side also.

I didn't realise this happened, so there are pros and cons to it becoming demand led.

That’s really useful insight and feedback for those folks looking into something like this. Thank you for sharing and good luck with it

In reply to a post by tikka69:

BT are effectivly taking on the risk and there is no CIC required

"CIC"?

Still trying to get my head around this. You have a demand led CFP, so OR think its worth doing. But you still need the community to pay, in your case via government vouchers? If that's correct, what't the difference between a plain CFP and a demand led one?

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

"CIC"?

CIC means Community Interest Company

A company who can sign contracts with Openreach

Community Interest Company.

Its for when your wanting to run a CFP with BT ( not demand led ) and its a legal entity they can deal with as far as I know.

It hasnt come to that for me now as the scheme has bee changed to demand led so one is not required, however this adds an uplift to the cost of 30% to be reached.

The idea is if we reach the target number of households it will cover the gap cost 100%, therefore no outlay will be required from anyone as the vouchers will cover it. This is the same whether its demand led or not.

I am not sure with a demand-led scheme if you can make up the difference or not if you dont reach your target, I would guess not. You have so long to reach your target ( around 3 months from what I can make out ) or it doesnt happen.

Edited by deleted (Thu 21-Jan-21 11:01:00)

hmmm

interesting view point

In reply to a post by Fastman3:

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

I really don't want to start something if the answer is going to be a couple of grand.

How will you know if you don't try????

hmmm

interesting view point

Is it? I thought my response was common sense.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

And equally, if you apply for a CFP and provide a list of people who would take FTTP if it were available, Openreach might turn it into a "demand-led" scheme and/or add it to their existing rollout you have found.

You have to be in it to win it.

Does there not have to be vouchers available for OpenReach to make it a demand led CFP?

I thought the point of demand led CFP was OpenReach take the risk that enough vouchers would be claimed to cover the community contribution.

There's no vouchers to claim if it isn't rural and everyone already receives very good FTTC speeds.

Edit: https://www.openreach.com/RGC

Edited by j0hn83 (Thu 21-Jan-21 11:57:30)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

I thought the point of demand led CFP was OpenReach take the risk that enough vouchers would be claimed to cover the community contribution.

I have seen several posts about demand led and OR taking a risk but I am confused where the risk is as I thought the CFP didn't progress without enough vouchers being pledged so to add 30% uplift for a bit of marketing is taking the [censored] if I understand it correctly.

Edit: Thought about this again and I think the risk is if the property owners don't meet the criteria of the voucher scheme after the infrastructure is installed so the vouchers become invalid.

Edited by deleted (Thu 21-Jan-21 12:11:48)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

There's no vouchers to claim if it isn't rural and everyone already receives very good FTTC speeds.

This is where I'm stuck. Not rural so no vouchers. Very good FTTC speeds? I'm on 39Mbps. Depends on your definition, or maybe HMG's* but it's not even good for what we need according to me!

* His/Her Majesties Government, for those - like me - who don't know all the TLAs.

I'm currently going through the CFP process, originally targetted 10 properties in my postcode only (all rural, below 30Mbps). OR expanded the project to cover 58 properties with the additional 48 ish already receving 40-60Mbps+.

The cost came back as £44k but OR said this would be demand led and the target was set at £58k.

We've just got to the stage where we can register on the OR website and pledge vouchers. So far, I have 5 residents in my postcode that have registered. As we're in Kent we can access the £7k vouchers - So with these vouchers we're already at 59%. I've still got to let the other 5 residents know that they can now register (they're aware of the project) but I'm hoping another 3 will register which will cover the bulk of the cost.

The only issue now is that our REM has advised that the £7k voucher fund (KCC top up) is running low. If this does run out or does not get extended then it is likely this project will be abandoned as I don't fancy the chances of getting pretty much all the residents registered (especially when a large portion of the village already has decent speeds available).

With regards to the 'Risk' part with demand led, AIUI, as there's no contract in place some residents may decide not to take the service when the infrastructure is in place, therefore OR foots the bill - that's why there's a 30% increase in build costs for demand led projects.

I have had a reply today for my CFP for our area of Market Harborough which is not part of Openreach's commercial plans.

We had 64 houses that showed an interest and these were logged with them, But in the quote Openreach want to enable FTTP for all 115 houses plus 15 commercial premises this quote has come to £39,000 so works out around £368 per property.

This seemed a bit high to me as we are a 2017 built area with full ducting and are 230metres from the main aggregation node, Which Openreach are currently adding fibre to another estate over the road from us as part of commercial plans
As we live in a town I do not think that we can get any grants or vouchers even though we no other alternative suppliers in our estate and most peoples broadband is around 40-55Mbps due to the cabinet being put right at the edge some 100 metres from the nearest house .

Myself and others are going to try to put a package together to see if we can raise this money and are hopeful that maybe a couple of residents who are business owners will contribute larger amounts as they had previously asked about FTTPOD

Edited by flagrag28 (Thu 21-Jan-21 18:23:15)

Well at the risk of getting shot down (again). I'd say you've got a bargain and should grab it with both hands and run!

(Coming from FTTP on Demand land here.....).........

In reply to a post by flagrag28:

We had 64 houses that showed an interest and these were logged with them, But in the quote Openreach want to enable FTTP for all 115 houses plus 15 commercial premises this quote has come to £39,000 so works out around £368 per property.

Focusing just on the price per property its a good price.

In an ideal world every property would pay £368 but realistically not every property will or be able to contribute so it will certainly be more than that in the end, BUT by how much???

Dect- This is the issue that we are going to face that not every household is going to want to pay £300+ to get FTTP I have also contacted Three of the commercial properties that Openreach included but they are not interested as they already have their own 1Gbps dedicated leased lines installed.

So I think that we may have to look at the cost being spread by 50 hoses which then makes it around £750 per house. This is of course unless a couple of residents whom had looked into FTTPOD would be prepared to cover say 10k each this would bring the price down and they would still be saving 20k each on the quotes that they have been given.

There was a little annoyance last night on our residents Zoom call and it took a lot of explaining on why Openreach are installing FTTP to the estate opposite fed from same aggregation node as part of a commercial rollout but they want us to pay 39k towards it

I often hear "why them and not us" but its a commercial decision by Openreach so what can you say or do.

I can't see those two properties who have already enquired into FTTPoD stumping up £10k each and to be honest I don't think it would be fair expecting them to do it. The problem is all 115 houses plus 15 commercial premises will get FTTP enabled regardless of who ultimately pays the money. I think if you can get 50% to pay around £700 you will have done well.

Edit: Make sure you know about any VAT liability as I have heard some say they had to pay VAT on top although my personal experiences there was no VAT required.

Edited by deleted (Fri 22-Jan-21 11:03:03)

In reply to a post by flagrag28:

There was a little annoyance last night on our residents Zoom call and it took a lot of explaining on why Openreach are installing FTTP to the estate opposite fed from same aggregation node as part of a commercial rollout but they want us to pay 39k towards it

How did you explain that? Did you get info from OR to help?

Your position is interesting to me. I'm in a similar estate, modern (all less than 5 years old) and ducted. No commercial properties though. A few houses have FTTP and there are plans for another street. But not most. Bizarre. So I guess the cost for us would be much the same, perhaps a little less than you. If I was in your scheme I think you'd get £300 from me. £750? That's going to be a bit of a push.

So what happens when 50 houses cough up £750 each. Do the other 50 odd who don't pay still get the chance to order FTTP?

In reply to a post by dect:

I often hear "why them and not us" but its a commercial decision by Openreach so what can you say or do.

Vote Labour.

We will establish British Broadband, with two arms: British Digital Infrastructure (BDI) and the British Broadband Service (BBS). We will bring the broadband-relevant parts of BT into public ownership, with a jobs guarantee for all workers in existing broadband infrastructure and retail broadband work.

Oh, sorry, that ship has been sunk.

[ Thank you for enjoying this light departure from the current discussion, please don't bother to take it too seriously or sidetrack this important thread. :) ]

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

I think you'd get £300 from me. £750? That's going to be a bit of a push.

£750 is still a good price considering what other are still having to pay for FTTPoD, agree not everyone can afford it or is willing to pay that price for broadband but as you're here I would discount the latter.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

So what happens when 50 houses cough up £750 each. Do the other 50 odd who don't pay still get the chance to order FTTP?

The answer is yes they do

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

Vote Labour.

We will establish British Broadband, with two arms: British Digital Infrastructure (BDI) and the British Broadband Service (BBS). We will bring the broadband-relevant parts of BT into public ownership, with a jobs guarantee for all workers in existing broadband infrastructure and retail broadband work.

Oh, sorry, that ship has been sunk.

[ Thank you for enjoying this light departure from the current discussion, please don't bother to take it too seriously or sidetrack this important thread. :) ]

Its in my trash already

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

In reply to a post by dect:

I often hear "why them and not us" but its a commercial decision by Openreach so what can you say or do.

Vote Labour.

We will establish British Broadband, with two arms: British Digital Infrastructure (BDI) and the British Broadband Service (BBS). We will bring the broadband-relevant parts of BT into public ownership, with a jobs guarantee for all workers in existing broadband infrastructure and retail broadband work.

Oh, sorry, that ship has been sunk.

[ Thank you for enjoying this light departure from the current discussion, please don't bother to take it too seriously or sidetrack this important thread. :) ]

Oh gosh! There's plenty of other outlets for that stuff, don't think its appropriate for here tbh.

Many a good friendship has been spoiled by politics

Thank You for others peoples input, Myself and another resident are putting together all the facts before doing the full presentation to the whole estate. Openreach are supposed to be providing some slides and information on benefits that FTTP will bring.

I have a feeling at least one resident will donate 5-10k as he is putting it through his business as he is working at home and has saved over 10k in train fares. Also we have a couple who both work for Sky sports and are doing remote tv production from home and they are using around 500 GB a day so they are keen for upgrade.

It was difficult to explain to some of the doubters about why others are getting in now for no cost but we are not and I know one person will now not pay anything on a matter of principle. I also expect others will say that they will wait until we fall into commercial plans but based upon what I have been told that will not be until 2022 possibly 2023

depends on your point of view

say 1000 people decice to do the same as without any validation that there is appetite- what do think might happen to your application and when do think you might get a response

or a 1000 people as an example asked your business to provided a quote just for fun of it you might take a different view

In reply to a post by Fastman3:

say 1000 people decice to do the same as without any validation that there is appetite

Who said anything about asking for a CFP quote without checking if there is any local appetite for it? please do not put words in my mouth.

I simply encouraged the poster to consider starting a CFP for their area rather than sitting there wondering what the outcome might be.

Edited by deleted (Fri 22-Jan-21 22:31:48)

All the best