Fibre v Coax

For anyone who's interested here are the stats for an FTTP v HFC connection from NW London.

FTTP - Community Fibre. Gig connection. Very lightly loaded.

--- www.bbc.net.uk ping statistics ---
29 packets transmitted, 29 received, 0% packet loss, time 35121ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 1.461/2.315/2.768/0.249 ms

(The time is high as I'm using an Edgrouter which has very long latency period before it starts pinging)

Virgin Media - HDC. 108 Meg link - lightly loaded.

--- www.bbc.net.uk ping statistics ---
44 packets transmitted, 44 received, 0% packet loss, time 43170ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 13.475/15.214/22.678/2.223 ms

Kind of predictable slam dunk for CF. Virgin DOCSIS access tech. isn't really in the same ballpark.

What would be interesting is a comparison of Openreach FTTP vs CF - in the same approximate location - not John o' Groats vs London ...

Me Me! Yes, I am VERY Interested! Please Pardon my ignorance, where can I Buy some of that Community Fibre stuff, and how many arms and legs does it cost?

Location GU15

Former VM 100mbps sub 10ms to bbc.co.uk and easily usable video + audio chat with my Grandchildren and their parents. I was Happy as Larry except for the need to contact retentions every year and renegotiate the price. When they ran out of ideas, I emailed their CEO, asking why new subscribers are more important than old Loyal ones, his "assistant replied with a cookie-cutter answer to a totally different question. I cancelled.

Currently: 300+ ms "alleged" 30/4 mbps guaranteed??? from "NowBroadband & Calls only" version of NowTV (no, i do not have a set-top box, which confuses their support robot, just a Sky NR-801 toy stripped-down "modem"). Only suitable for text chat, audio IF it hasn't rained for a few days. Seriously, when the so-called modem stays up for more than a day or two without rebooting, the ground outside, and the damaged cabinet? have had a chance to dry out. Those reboots make it very difficult to use the TBB monitor as "our" IPV6 number often changes. Don't tell me we are now running out of IPV6 numbers? Surely not?

VM's DOCSIS may be a little less than perfect, but I for one miss it! It worked. Without all the faffing about needed with the Openreach/Sky alternative.

Is this CF thing available at my location? How can I find out?

Cheers & 73
Martin G8EAD

@Pheasant : Fair comment. What I can tell you from past experience is that their DOCSIS modem worked well enough.

Send me a box of "CF" and a one year subscription to VM and I will happily comparison test them for you 😉

Where in GU15 ?

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Kind of predictable slam dunk for CF. Virgin DOCSIS access tech. isn't really in the same ballpark.

What would be interesting is a comparison of Openreach FTTP vs CF - in the same approximate location - not John o' Groats vs London ...

Also a comparison to Virgin's FTTP would be cool

Thanks
Dan

Community Fibre are pretty much within the M25/London only (so far) that I'm aware of.

Sadly, as Pheasant says CF is only within Greater London.


It's worth looking on the TBB map and seeing what else is available. Most parts of the country are going to be waiting on the OR FTTP rollout.

In reply to a post by Martin_G8EAD:

@Pheasant : Fair comment. What I can tell you from past experience is that their DOCSIS modem worked well enough.

You'll be on the same Virgin Media network area as I am, linked to the Guildford head end. Given this was originally an NTL/CableTel area, I see quite a high take up of VM services, so I have assumed OR and any altnet will have us at the end of the queue.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

You'll be on the same Virgin Media network area as I am, linked to the Guildford head end. Given this was originally an NTL/CableTel area, I see quite a high take up of VM services, so I have assumed OR and any altnet will have us at the end of the queue.

I see the opposite. In an area where Openreach have lost business to Virgin Media then there's a very good business case for deploying FTTP to claw back customers and gain incremental revenue.

On the other hand, in the areas where Openreach has no competition, there's far less of a business case to install FTTP. In those areas, the people who will take up FTTP are exactly the same people who are already paying Openreach for their [censored] copper network. A few customers will upgrade to ultrafast when the opportunity arises, but the majority will take the cheapest 40/10 service - and be paying hardly any more than they did before.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I see the opposite. In an area where Openreach have lost business to Virgin Media then there's a very good business case for deploying FTTP to claw back customers and gain incremental revenue.

I agree, I think we're going to see a lot of Openreach overbuilding VM as a priority. A cursory and unscientific look around London on the TBB maps shows that most areas where OR FTTP has been built to cover large areas (rather than new build / FTTPoD) also have VM.

Community Fibre seem more interested in areas not served by VM - but it's a smaller sample size and not really possible to draw conclusions from.

Edited by ft247 (Mon 01-Feb-21 17:59:27)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I see the opposite. In an area where Openreach have lost business to Virgin Media then there's a very good business case for deploying FTTP to claw back customers and gain incremental revenue.

In Sussex there are a few towns (pop. around 50k) with no VM, whom only have VDSL. I see Gigaclear already digging the streets. No sign of Openreach. VM have also commented they "might" be interested in developing as a Project Lightning location. Whereas in Hampshire two towns that have VM and VDSL, have no signs of any activity from OR or any alt net. (pop. around 90k).

Maybe it depends on the size of the town?? If 100k or more, more likely to have take up per home passed?

More likely just that Openreach can't build everywhere at once.

Last I heard, their aim was 15 million properties by 2025, and 20 million by mid-to-late twenties (out of about 30m properties total in the UK).

In reply to a post by candlerb:

More likely just that Openreach can't build everywhere at once

Of course, and hence they have to prioritise. I would hope towns with only Openreach copper are ahead of towns with VM, but I suspect its driven more on the expected return on investment calculations, than the competition availability.

High end GU15 1RU

I recall the original coax pull was bad and replaced with a better grade (thicker). Ex CableTel.

I am currently enjoying great wifi courtesy of, and inpatient in an NHS hospital in Guildford... so my NowTV subscription needs to be cancelled or paused.

Thanks for the "reminder".

@Zarjaz high numbered end of GU15 1RU .

In reply to a post by danielhyde:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Kind of predictable slam dunk for CF. Virgin DOCSIS access tech. isn't really in the same ballpark.

What would be interesting is a comparison of Openreach FTTP vs CF - in the same approximate location - not John o' Groats vs London ...

Also a comparison to Virgin's FTTP would be cool

Thanks
Dan

Virgin don't do FTTP, they do RFoG, which is the same DOCSIS system delivered over a fibre cable, which goes in to a media converter on the outside of the house, then is coax to the superhub as normal.

In any case, here are some ping logs from this morning on a Gig1 SH4 HFC connection, and a 500m SH3 RFoG connection.

https://imgur.com/a/5W8eE3E

Technically it actually *is* FTTP, as in it fits the definition of fibre to the premises....

However Virgin Media FTTP uses neither of the 'typical' PON related architectures (GPON, NG-PON2 or XGS-PON etc.) nor for that matter Point-to-Point (usually 1Gbps or 10Gbps BiDi ethernet) FTTP network designs typically used by either Openreach or any of the other Altnets.

Instead they use DOSCIS 3.1 via RFoG and essentially media convert (using Vector Technologies, Boostral 610 or 711 modems) at the premises to back to coaxial for both their Hubs/modems and for set top devices.

Virgin New Build Handbook (Developers Guide) on p.27 sums their HFC and FTTP network:

Virgin Media HFC and FTTP Network Comparison

Virgin Media FTTP on a New Build Site

Virgin Media New Home Pre-Wire for FTTP

You are a long way from your cabinet .... 1970’s direct in ground cabling abounds round there.

Not far from you at all.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Technically it actually *is* FTTP, as in it fits the definition of fibre to the premises....

However Virgin Media FTTP uses neither of the 'typical' PON related architectures (GPON, NG-PON2 or XGS-PON etc.) nor for that matter Point-to-Point (usually 1Gbps or 10Gbps BiDi ethernet) FTTP network designs typically used by either Openreach or any of the other Altnets.

Instead they use DOSCIS 3.1 via RFoG and essentially media convert (using Vector Technologies, Boostral 610 or 711 modems) at the premises to back to coaxial for both their Hubs/modems and for set top devices.

Yes, ok, technically a fibre does reach the premises. However I would not put RFoG in the same category as PON or Ethernet FTTP technologies, mostly due to the latency.

The rest of what you said just repeats what I said

It's an important distinction, in as much with fibre running directly to the premises gives them far great flexibility to change the active devices at the greatest depth in their network - be that with DOCSIS 3.1 or in future DOCSIS 4 media converters or for that matter they could in theory actually adopt any other technology - they could even deploy a PtP or PON network if they desired.

The latency bogeyman that can plague them with HFC and earlier versions of DOCSIS could be mitigated with alternative traffic queuing strategies available in D3.1 (e.g. active queue management) and media acquisition in low latency docsis (LLD3.1)

Edited by Pheasant (Mon 22-Mar-21 08:53:14)

I still think the biggest reason HFC/RFoG kind of sucks is that it's not really in the same category, it's as much about delivery of TV services as it is Broadband.

It's possible to run GPON over the same fibre, this would be the future imo, but VM won't do it as they don't want any product offering differences vs HFC.

Honestly. VM are dead to me now, so many massive customer services issues, and a poor product. Thankfully CityFibre will reach me soon.

At least RFoG eliminates the potential for area-wide SnR issues, but yeah it can't solve congestion. Presumably the lasers are a different wavelength to GPON so they could overlay a better technology if they wanted to at a future date.

Pushing glass all the way to the premises with RFoG gives them a N+0 architecture (no amplifiers between the node and home) - a lot more capability to actually deliver stuff like full duplex DOCSIS and a literal pathway for symmetric 10G service, without all the inherent issues that would present on the present N+1 to N+10 topologies they have on HFC.

DOCSIS certainly isn't dead yet. They're pushing ahead with the next generation...Distributed Access Architecture, Flexible MAC Architecture, Remote-PHY and Coherent Optics.

https://www.cablelabs.com/on-the-path-to-10g-cablela...

By carving up and decentralising many of the key (but quite limiting) DOCSIS headend functions deeper into the network. They are in effect re-inventing DOCSIS from a central/shared entity to a distributed or switched/dedicated medium...

Note that VM can stay with RFoG for TV but choose something like EPON for broadband, all delivered over the same fibre. Obviously the ONT and hub 3/4 will have to be replaced, but that's no big deal.

Yes they could indeed, run side by side, ala hybrid PON. This is a older paper, but an interesting read.

HFC Transformation To FTTP: The role of RFoG, PON and Hybrid Solutions

Personally I don't believe VM would jump to the 'either' option in the UK. Think they have to much vested in D3.1 and they will continue the DOCSIS path for the foreseeable. But down the track who knows, having glass at the premises gives a huge scope.

Looking at that, if I where VM then I think the first step would be to remove a whole bunch of L3 cabinets, and wire all my L4 cabinets back to L2.5/3 with fibre.