Most insane ECC for a leased line?

Hello All,

We were on track to receive a 'leased line' service from Vodafone in the next few weeks for our rural office, with a 'small' amount of ECC's, we were talking £2-3k which i was happy to accept given our location and where i could foresee the route of the cable taking.

Fast-forward to this morning, i awake to have an email citing that this had been re-evaluated to £35,550 (Ex VAT), and that this needed to be paid near instantly for the project to continue. I'm not sure how they've come to the conclusion now 29 days down the line since i placed the order than it's going to cost 11x more.

Has anyone else got any suggestions on how to handle this? I'm in good mind just to sack it off now and just bond 2/3 FTTC lines together with A&A, rather than argue about ECC's with someone who clearly doesn't want our business.

Edit: I'd add that OR quoted us £13k for an FTTPoD quote at one point, but we ditched that option in favour of the leased line because it was 120 days vs 12-15 months difference.

Edited by Whitehall11 (Mon 01-Feb-21 11:49:43)

Go back to the original order and check what it says. Is there a "re-evaluation clause" and if not, remind them that you placed a valid order with defined charges and you expect it to be honoured.

If they refuse, ask for a breakdown of the charges and a detailed explanation of why they are now demanding the increase.

You may not succeed but tie them up in knots - asking for more and more details. And finally take the business elsewhere.

worth asking what driving that

you said rural exchange

Definitely high, but not insane.

I have paid just over £500k in ECCs for a line (that's one line, not a total for multiple lines) - so you have a long way to go to beat my record (and I am sure there are even higher examples).

It depends how much you need the service!

I'd go for bonded DSL.


That number is nuts.

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

i awake to have an email citing that this had been re-evaluated to £35,550 (Ex VAT),

Were they asleep when they gave the initial quote? would be interested to hear from them why the costs have changed.

Sounds like a route they were possibly intending to use is no longer viable (or perhaps doesn't exist). That sum of money suggests a a large amount of civils works that they didn't foresee until they completed some level of detailed planning.

Is your order directly with Voda or have you gone via a reseller? You may be able to re-negotioate a better deal with another provider.

Just jumped off a call with AM asking for an explanation for the significant cost change - In their words: 'The survey information entered at the beginning of the order was not inputted correctly', with them citing 'major' civil engineering works needed to deliver the service.

When i pushed and asked for the detail on this, they declined to comment saying they didn't have that detail at hand to speculate.

They've escalated it up the chain to see what can be done, but it looks like they've got grounds to change this ECC until any money had been paid.

I've had quotes double that.
It was probably a sales agent that gave you the original figures was reading from a script.
I'd look into FTTPoD again

What bandwidth and bearer was the circuit? Three year deal presumably?

I'd get alternative quote from another wires provider. You never know what OR can pull out the bag (or SSE etc)

Alternatively get the leased line delivered to a more "cost effective" location,where there is potential to use another method, like for example private 60 GHz multi-gig full duplex radio link for the last mile or so.

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

Just jumped off a call with AM asking for an explanation for the significant cost change - In their words: 'The survey information entered at the beginning of the order was not inputted correctly', with them citing 'major' civil engineering works needed to deliver the service.

When i pushed and asked for the detail on this, they declined to comment saying they didn't have that detail at hand to speculate.

They've escalated it up the chain to see what can be done, but it looks like they've got grounds to change this ECC until any money had been paid.

That is THEIR error. You have proceeded in good faith based on the quotation which forms part of the order.

You need to push them to find out the details and how they intend to resolve it with no additional cost to you and in line with the order placed based on their quotation.

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

Just jumped off a call with AM asking for an explanation for the significant cost change - In their words: 'The survey information entered at the beginning of the order was not inputted correctly', with them citing 'major' civil engineering works needed to deliver the service.

When i pushed and asked for the detail on this, they declined to comment saying they didn't have that detail at hand to speculate.

They've escalated it up the chain to see what can be done, but it looks like they've got grounds to change this ECC until any money had been paid.

That is THEIR error. You have proceeded in good faith based on the quotation which forms part of the order.

You need to push them to find out the details and how they intend to resolve it with no additional cost to you and in line with the order placed based on their quotation.

You're dreaming.

They are preliminary contracts subject to a full survey.

It's just the same as paying for an FTTPoD survey is actually placing an order, with a contract signed.
They are still allowed to increase the quote after doing a survey.

Leased line providers aren't going to have contracts where they can't change the ECC's after doing a survey. They would go bust pretty quick.

The OP hadn't even paid!

Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 01-Feb-21 16:44:23)

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

but it looks like they've got grounds to change this ECC until any money had been paid.

This. All day long.

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

Just jumped off a call with AM asking for an explanation for the significant cost change - In their words: 'The survey information entered at the beginning of the order was not inputted correctly', with them citing 'major' civil engineering works needed to deliver the service.

When i pushed and asked for the detail on this, they declined to comment saying they didn't have that detail at hand to speculate.

They've escalated it up the chain to see what can be done, but it looks like they've got grounds to change this ECC until any money had been paid.

That is THEIR error. You have proceeded in good faith based on the quotation which forms part of the order.

You need to push them to find out the details and how they intend to resolve it with no additional cost to you and in line with the order placed based on their quotation.

I feel your sentiment, but it's commercially naive. They will simply walk away from it. They've certainly fudged up, but they wont take a £20K+ loss just to keep a single customer happy.

Different if Whitehall was a major client, a bank, supermarket chain etc with hundreds of thousands or millions of pounds tied up with them other products etc.

It is not naive. There is an request made, and a formal offer to contract was made. The customer (OP) accepted that offer and confirmed he wanted to progress. A contract is then in place. They did not reject his acceptance at the time it was made.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

What bandwidth and bearer was the circuit? Three year deal presumably?

I'd get alternative quote from another wires provider. You never know what OR can pull out the bag (or SSE etc)

Alternatively get the leased line delivered to a more "cost effective" location,where there is potential to use another method, like for example private 60 GHz multi-gig full duplex radio link for the last mile or so.

It is a 3 year, 1000/1000mpbs Symmetrical service - Went with the 1GB circuit, because i thought even if we only ended up needing around half of that, we've got scale for expansion.

The microwave idea was one we had explored originally as we're in quite a rural area, and Surf Telecom have a mast on the horizon, but when we'd explored this option they'd no spare capacity to do a deal with us (well, without significant cost).

SSE do have a similar offer, and looks to be a bit cheaper from what i've done a quick search of, the big thing for us is this symetry of upload / download and it to be installed in a relevatiely quick timeframe, which is mostly why i haven't taken up the FTTPoD service.

I'm not sure who Vodafone currently use as their construction / backhaul for their leasedlines, i'd assume it would be connecting back to somewhere within the BT/Openreach world given where our office is.

Edited by Whitehall11 (Mon 01-Feb-21 17:17:09)

OK you want serious bandwidth.

Unlike FTTP which may or may not be symmetric - a proper leased line will aways be symmetric (discounting certain VDSL based exceptions).

Not sure I'd waste any more time now with VF. They've nailed their colours to the mast. You could try, but doubtful you'd get anything meaningful now.

Tomorrow I'd get the ball re-rolling with some alternative LL quotes. I'll ping over the details of the folks I'm dealing with currently, who have been very good.

Consider dusting off the FTTOoD order - yes it will be a long slog, but as you've found pulling a fibre in the sticks isn't cheap and it wont be fast. When it comes down to it there may be less in it construction time wise between broadband fibre and leased line.

Been a while since I dealt with leased lines and ethernet but I think indicative ECCs are set at KCI2. Only once the order has reached KCI3 are ECCs committed and then a delivery date is confirmed. If the CP has been given a confirmed delivery date that would suggest the order has reached KCI3, but that is something the OP should ask their CP.

Regarding the bonded line option, our business uses multiple lines from A&A bonded via a FireBrick.

We started with 3 x ADSL, then when FTTC became available 1 x 80Mbit FTTC with 1 x 17Mbit ADSL as fallback, now we've upgraded to 2 x FTTC bonded to give 142Mbit down / 38Mbit up. The two VDSL lines are routed via different backhaul providers for extra resilience.

This arrangement just works and A&A support are the best. It's an expensive solution compared to the FTTP that I enjoy at home, but much cheaper than a leased line and offers better resilience.

In reply to a post by GrumpyBadger:

The two VDSL lines are routed via different backhaul providers for extra resilience.

It's an expensive solution compared to the FTTP that I enjoy at home, but much cheaper than a leased line and offers better resilience.

From two DSL providers you'll get some resilience against a comms providers fault further upstream in their network. However downstream the connection from exchange to cabinet willl be non-resilient as would the copper connection from cab to premises.

The cab itself could be a single point of failure. Quite possible for a JCB working down the road to take out all service upstream or downstream of the cabinet or a car to knock out a cab...

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/01/car-cr...

In leased circuit territory, the approach to resilience is to duplicate (and physically diversely route)the paths/circuits. Can be made more resilient by (optionally) taking service from multiple POPs, each backed off via resilient backhaul. All at a price of course.

For small business, using a different technology, like 4G or 5G in conjunction with a cabled service offers more real resilience than a single technology. Most folks are going to reach for their phone/hotspot to get back online

If we assume that a gigabit symmetric service was being taken out of necessity rather than simply a nice-to-have then it's not likely that any bonded DSL or 4G/5G load balanced option is going to provide anywhere near the service required.

I'm kind of surprised that someone's requirements would jump from whatever you're currently getting (presumably FTTC from a distant cabinet) to a gigabit leased line, but it wouldn't be unheard of. If the OP explains their usage then people can make more informed suggestions.

No need to assume, as OP says it above:

“Went with the 1GB circuit, because i thought even if we only ended up needing around half of that, we've got scale for expansion.”

Following on, I’m not sure how familiar you are with recent leased line costs, but there isn’t a simple straight linear cost to bandwidth ratio on a 1 gig bearer. So for example a 500 access on 1000 bearer circuit isn’t 50% of the cost of a 1000 access on 1000 bearer service. Once you’re at the cost of gig bearer there’s little incentive to stay at a lower access speed as the cost uplift is often not existent and the trend therefore is to take the full Gig access from Day 1.

Beyond that I believe the OP is considering FTTPoD which (now given the huge uplift in the ECCs) has a lower capital outlay over leased line - but still has a significant construction time penalty.

Otherwise if you “need” more than several hundred Mbps service, then in the OPs circumstances, there really isn’t much else moderating the “leap” to a gig.

Don't leased lines run straight back to the exchange? They certainly don't use the GEA network, i.e. the FTTC cabinets or the aggregation points that feed the cabinets.

There's also the possibility that the person giving the original quote looked at a map and gave a rule-of-thumb initial estimate, forgetting about the river or motorway in the way.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

Just jumped off a call with AM asking for an explanation for the significant cost change - In their words: 'The survey information entered at the beginning of the order was not inputted correctly', with them citing 'major' civil engineering works needed to deliver the service.

When i pushed and asked for the detail on this, they declined to comment saying they didn't have that detail at hand to speculate.

They've escalated it up the chain to see what can be done, but it looks like they've got grounds to change this ECC until any money had been paid.

That is THEIR error. You have proceeded in good faith based on the quotation which forms part of the order.

You need to push them to find out the details and how they intend to resolve it with no additional cost to you and in line with the order placed based on their quotation.

You're dreaming.

They are preliminary contracts subject to a full survey.

It's just the same as paying for an FTTPoD survey is actually placing an order, with a contract signed.
They are still allowed to increase the quote after doing a survey.

Leased line providers aren't going to have contracts where they can't change the ECC's after doing a survey. They would go bust pretty quick.

The OP hadn't even paid!

It will be covered off in the T&Cs of the leased line order with the CP.

I just found the appropriate clause in my order. It’s pretty unequivocal:

“If, following carrying out the surveys as are referred to at clause 6.6, it is apparent that to enable the Data Services to be provided, infrastructure is required in addition to that which is already in place, then XXX will provide the Customer with a quotation for undertaking such work, and the Customer may either accept that quotation or not accept that quotation. If the Customer accepts the quotation then XXX shall arrange for the work to be carried out to install the infrastructure required and the cost thereof shall be paid by the Customer in accordance with the quotation, which shall be in addition to other costs payable by the Customer. If the Customer does not accept the quotation then either the Customer or XXX may terminate the Contract to provide Data Services and XXX will not be obliged to provide Data Services to the Customer.”

The key point above is “if, following carrying out surveys”.

Doubtless they will claim they hadn’t yet surveyed and so the leaves the option for the OP to accept or drop the order without penalty.

In city or more built up areas they will probably blow to/from a local node and pick up spare fibre going back to the exchange. Won’t necessarily run a new fibre bundle directly from the exchange/POP. But it all depends.

Large ECCs indicate there is no pre-existing fibre nearby to leverage and/or large civils works are needed to bring the fibre to the premises. No surprise for the OP on a remote rural location.

The aggregator my CP uses (Virtual1) has a quoting / planning portal which enables them to see what fibre and node capacity is like in the area. However they still rely on a physical survey to confirm construction costs.

Morning all,

Thank you for your recommendations - Inparticularly, Pheasant for dropping me some details which i've managed to get some kind of ball rolling already this morning so many thanks, just to see what my options still are on a Leased Line.

Our FTTC Cab that we've got at the moment is a BDUK Infill if that gives indication to where we're talking location wise! Simply, we've expanded quite heavily over lockdown and that places pressure on what connections we need to serve our business and the servers that we run from it, and i've come to the conclusion speed is the answer.

As for FTTPoD, it's the construction time length that is of my concern, and it's the beefy upload we're after more than the download i'd say!

Vodafone are still playing hardball and have offered me a means of escape to drop the order with no fees, i do think as someone has already said, they missed off the big hill that is in the way of any known fiber aggregation point that i know of!

If you're at the point where you have expanded and are hosting servers then your best option in the short term might be to look to move the servers to a datacentre to take some of the load away.

I guess you're on a single FTTC line at the moment, what sort of speeds does that give you?

In reply to a post by jpm:

If you're at the point where you have expanded and are hosting servers then your best option in the short term might be to look to move the servers to a datacentre to take some of the load away.

I guess you're on a single FTTC line at the moment, what sort of speeds does that give you?

Currently getting around 70-75 Down / 18 Up on the FTTC so the speed increase need is present.

From a server perspective, i'm looking to get us moved to a local data centre where we can put our own kit in as it's rather custom and we do have off site backup, but i'd be much more comfortable having some strong backup on our side as well, which requires a beefy connection!

If you feel comfortable giving out your postcode / part of your postcode then we might be able to make suggestions. I'm assuming the Vodafone survey was based on an Openreach tail but there may be other networks closer to you.

Also try sticking your address in linebroker.co.uk

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Also try sticking your address in linebroker.co.uk

Good shout, but just for clarity, Linebroker is not an actual leased line comparison website - in the sense that some folks might expect. It's actually the brand name for X.COMM - so actually it's just the one comms provider issuing different circuit prices from various backhaul networks.

An actual comparison website that will send your query to several actual CPs, like for example to Amvia, Focus1, Aspire, etc is leasedline.co.uk

Thought i should give an update as we've made a lot of progress since Monday...

I've managed to strike a deal with SSE for a similar amount we we're going to pay Vodafone, i had no idea they had a POP in the rural Peak District, who'd of thought it! (Also a 55 day lead time, which i think is super!)

They've come back today and offered us much more reasonable ECC's on initial survey and when pressed on if they would jump up to anything like Vodafone, the guy on the phone chuckled and said 'he'd eat his hat' if the survey data was wrong. So finger's crossed! This is for a 1GB Circuit Bearer at the moment so i'm excited to see if we can indeed pull this off!

I have also spoken to A&A about getting a FTTC Backup in addition to our current connection to make sure we're always running, again a very promising sign!

All in all, very happy with how we've got on. Thanks to everyone who gave their insight, and hopefully i won't end up buying a JCB to do it myself.

Out if interest - if you're willing - what sort of fee is a 1GB leased line?

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

Out if interest - if you're willing - what sort of fee is a 1GB leased line?

Roughly talking £500-600 a month of a 3 Year Contract. I always thought it seemed quite steep until you get talking about SLA's and Install times, plus it's supposedly symmetrical speeds. Next thing i need to work out is how we sort out a firewall for all of this.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

Out if interest - if you're willing - what sort of fee is a 1GB leased line?

Cost monthly cost varies *a lot* depending on where you are in the country. Central London its possible to get 1G on 1G leased circuits for less than £350 pcm + VAT. I'm paying less than that for my circuit.

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

Thought i should give an update as we've made a lot of progress since Monday...

I've managed to strike a deal with SSE for a similar amount we we're going to pay Vodafone, i had no idea they had a POP in the rural Peak District, who'd of thought it! (Also a 55 day lead time, which i think is super!)

They've come back today and offered us much more reasonable ECC's on initial survey and when pressed on if they would jump up to anything like Vodafone, the guy on the phone chuckled and said 'he'd eat his hat' if the survey data was wrong. So finger's crossed! This is for a 1GB Circuit Bearer at the moment so i'm excited to see if we can indeed pull this off!

I have also spoken to A&A about getting a FTTC Backup in addition to our current connection to make sure we're always running, again a very promising sign!

All in all, very happy with how we've got on. Thanks to everyone who gave their insight, and hopefully i won't end up buying a JCB to do it myself.

That is good news. Fingers crossed for you this time around!

Welcome to the #second_time_lucky_leased_line_club - I'm the club secretary!

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

Out if interest - if you're willing - what sort of fee is a 1GB leased line?

Roughly talking £500-600 a month of a 3 Year Contract. I always thought it seemed quite steep until you get talking about SLA's and Install times, plus it's supposedly symmetrical speeds. Next thing i need to work out is how we sort out a firewall for all of this.

The DrayTek 3910 would easily meet the bandwidth needs

Thanks Dan