In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

Just jumped off a call with AM asking for an explanation for the significant cost change - In their words: 'The survey information entered at the beginning of the order was not inputted correctly', with them citing 'major' civil engineering works needed to deliver the service.

When i pushed and asked for the detail on this, they declined to comment saying they didn't have that detail at hand to speculate.

They've escalated it up the chain to see what can be done, but it looks like they've got grounds to change this ECC until any money had been paid.

That is THEIR error. You have proceeded in good faith based on the quotation which forms part of the order.

You need to push them to find out the details and how they intend to resolve it with no additional cost to you and in line with the order placed based on their quotation.

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

Just jumped off a call with AM asking for an explanation for the significant cost change - In their words: 'The survey information entered at the beginning of the order was not inputted correctly', with them citing 'major' civil engineering works needed to deliver the service.

When i pushed and asked for the detail on this, they declined to comment saying they didn't have that detail at hand to speculate.

They've escalated it up the chain to see what can be done, but it looks like they've got grounds to change this ECC until any money had been paid.

That is THEIR error. You have proceeded in good faith based on the quotation which forms part of the order.

You need to push them to find out the details and how they intend to resolve it with no additional cost to you and in line with the order placed based on their quotation.

You're dreaming.

They are preliminary contracts subject to a full survey.

It's just the same as paying for an FTTPoD survey is actually placing an order, with a contract signed.
They are still allowed to increase the quote after doing a survey.

Leased line providers aren't going to have contracts where they can't change the ECC's after doing a survey. They would go bust pretty quick.

The OP hadn't even paid!

Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 01-Feb-21 16:44:23)

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

but it looks like they've got grounds to change this ECC until any money had been paid.

This. All day long.

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

Just jumped off a call with AM asking for an explanation for the significant cost change - In their words: 'The survey information entered at the beginning of the order was not inputted correctly', with them citing 'major' civil engineering works needed to deliver the service.

When i pushed and asked for the detail on this, they declined to comment saying they didn't have that detail at hand to speculate.

They've escalated it up the chain to see what can be done, but it looks like they've got grounds to change this ECC until any money had been paid.

That is THEIR error. You have proceeded in good faith based on the quotation which forms part of the order.

You need to push them to find out the details and how they intend to resolve it with no additional cost to you and in line with the order placed based on their quotation.

I feel your sentiment, but it's commercially naive. They will simply walk away from it. They've certainly fudged up, but they wont take a £20K+ loss just to keep a single customer happy.

Different if Whitehall was a major client, a bank, supermarket chain etc with hundreds of thousands or millions of pounds tied up with them other products etc.

It is not naive. There is an request made, and a formal offer to contract was made. The customer (OP) accepted that offer and confirmed he wanted to progress. A contract is then in place. They did not reject his acceptance at the time it was made.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

What bandwidth and bearer was the circuit? Three year deal presumably?

I'd get alternative quote from another wires provider. You never know what OR can pull out the bag (or SSE etc)

Alternatively get the leased line delivered to a more "cost effective" location,where there is potential to use another method, like for example private 60 GHz multi-gig full duplex radio link for the last mile or so.

It is a 3 year, 1000/1000mpbs Symmetrical service - Went with the 1GB circuit, because i thought even if we only ended up needing around half of that, we've got scale for expansion.

The microwave idea was one we had explored originally as we're in quite a rural area, and Surf Telecom have a mast on the horizon, but when we'd explored this option they'd no spare capacity to do a deal with us (well, without significant cost).

SSE do have a similar offer, and looks to be a bit cheaper from what i've done a quick search of, the big thing for us is this symetry of upload / download and it to be installed in a relevatiely quick timeframe, which is mostly why i haven't taken up the FTTPoD service.

I'm not sure who Vodafone currently use as their construction / backhaul for their leasedlines, i'd assume it would be connecting back to somewhere within the BT/Openreach world given where our office is.

Edited by Whitehall11 (Mon 01-Feb-21 17:17:09)

OK you want serious bandwidth.

Unlike FTTP which may or may not be symmetric - a proper leased line will aways be symmetric (discounting certain VDSL based exceptions).

Not sure I'd waste any more time now with VF. They've nailed their colours to the mast. You could try, but doubtful you'd get anything meaningful now.

Tomorrow I'd get the ball re-rolling with some alternative LL quotes. I'll ping over the details of the folks I'm dealing with currently, who have been very good.

Consider dusting off the FTTOoD order - yes it will be a long slog, but as you've found pulling a fibre in the sticks isn't cheap and it wont be fast. When it comes down to it there may be less in it construction time wise between broadband fibre and leased line.

Been a while since I dealt with leased lines and ethernet but I think indicative ECCs are set at KCI2. Only once the order has reached KCI3 are ECCs committed and then a delivery date is confirmed. If the CP has been given a confirmed delivery date that would suggest the order has reached KCI3, but that is something the OP should ask their CP.

Regarding the bonded line option, our business uses multiple lines from A&A bonded via a FireBrick.

We started with 3 x ADSL, then when FTTC became available 1 x 80Mbit FTTC with 1 x 17Mbit ADSL as fallback, now we've upgraded to 2 x FTTC bonded to give 142Mbit down / 38Mbit up. The two VDSL lines are routed via different backhaul providers for extra resilience.

This arrangement just works and A&A support are the best. It's an expensive solution compared to the FTTP that I enjoy at home, but much cheaper than a leased line and offers better resilience.

In reply to a post by GrumpyBadger:

The two VDSL lines are routed via different backhaul providers for extra resilience.

It's an expensive solution compared to the FTTP that I enjoy at home, but much cheaper than a leased line and offers better resilience.

From two DSL providers you'll get some resilience against a comms providers fault further upstream in their network. However downstream the connection from exchange to cabinet willl be non-resilient as would the copper connection from cab to premises.

The cab itself could be a single point of failure. Quite possible for a JCB working down the road to take out all service upstream or downstream of the cabinet or a car to knock out a cab...

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/01/car-cr...

In leased circuit territory, the approach to resilience is to duplicate (and physically diversely route)the paths/circuits. Can be made more resilient by (optionally) taking service from multiple POPs, each backed off via resilient backhaul. All at a price of course.

For small business, using a different technology, like 4G or 5G in conjunction with a cabled service offers more real resilience than a single technology. Most folks are going to reach for their phone/hotspot to get back online