Fibre is certainly on it's way

Been some roadworks near to where I work for a couple of weeks or so and today they have dug up at the side of the cycle path and have ditches across the cycle path, they have covered them, so people can still use the path.
The fibre don't seem to be buried very deep at the side of the path and only in mud, I fear that the tree roots will get to it eventually, and I hope what ever they put the fibre into is waterproof because it floods there when it rains as the council can't be bothered to clean the drains.
So yes it seems like they are getting on with it, it is about time this city had fibre to be honest

and I hope what ever they put the fibre into is waterproof because it floods there when it rains as the council can't be bothered to clean the drains.

Water ingress doesn’t affect fibre like it does copper.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Water ingress doesn’t affect fibre like it does copper.

That is true, but what about any boosters they stick in the link there? I also still think that the trees roots will do something to the fibre, there are a lot of trees there, on the left-hand side the fibre is being laid.

But as I said, it will be nice for people who need the faster speed, I never thought I would see the day, I don't know if the exchange have anything to do with them digging there, I have no idea if a non-BT fibre company even touches the exchange., it just seems to be a strange place to be digging, it is a pretty large hole where they started
Link to photo here,not great as it was very dark, I was coming home from work at 10pmish.

I dont think anyone will be putting active equipment in a sub surface duct. Active equipment, if used here, is going to be in a surface mounted cabinet or structure. PON equipment i.e. not powered , is going to be in subsurface structure like a joint box, or surface mounted.

There's no 'boosters' as such with (Openreach based) FTTP - the network is completely passive. That's why its called a PON - Passive Optical Network.

The only electronics are in the headend exchange and in the small white (ONT) box inside the premises.

The rest along the way is just protected glass fibre, splices, splitters and connectors. None of which are powered much less have any electronics inside.

Cheers to both of you, I am not all that clued-up on fibre, no need to be as i thought we would never have it here, I will have to read a bit about it.
I thought that above a certain length there would need to be some sort of system to boast it, even light will fade after a certain distance.
I never thought about more cabinets, I wonder where they will put them.

This is not Open reach, it is a company called Zzoomm, they put a box on the wall outside, which is I presume is the ONT, then they put two hub type things indoors.

I hope they have made a better job of the covers on the bike track today as I am on late, so coming back home at 10pm, and it is pretty dark there.

Zzoomm is an alt net (alternative network provider). They run their own fibre infrastructure, rather than use for example Openreach's.

It looks as though they use a direct-burial system - that is the micro ducts that will have the fibre bundles blown down them are buried directly in the verge/footpath without a surrounding protective external duct. This is faster and cheaper than installing a network of rigid ducts and chambers - and then running blown-fibre micro ducts inside these ducts.

The box on the outside wall will be a splice or connection point, between the external cabling and the internal building cabling. The ONT basically a 'fibre modem' will be installed internally where there is power available (and it is out of the weather).

Unprotected tubes shallow buried will get damaged and fill with water and later block with silt. In my view it has always been a mistake to build on the cheap and nasty.

I realise that Zzoomm runs their own fibre infrastructure, like virgin and gigaclear.

i had a look at some videos, one of them showing open reach installation, they use a drop cable and the video I saw had the cable going into a box indoors, which is a Gpon terminal and then that is going to a plusnet router. I read that GPon is just a faster version of a PoN, the splitters was in the ground under a cover.

So Zzoomm box on outside is not active at all? The unit they are using on the inside for the connection from the fibre is a Smart/Rg SR400ac, which looks like a normal router, in fact it says router on the instructions and there is also a second one of these installed where even the customer want, so they have good Wi-fi all around the house
If I go for it, I will have one up here in the computer room, then I can connect my computer, printer and NAS directly to the lans on it, save having the network switch I have here.

It is all pretty interesting, I like learning about things like this, i set up a 10Gb/s network at a friends house a few weeks ago and that was a learning curve, used fibre for that, that was fun learning about SFP+ and transceivers and not all transceivers will work with all systems. But we got there in the end, and now she can access her NAS at the speed it is supposed to be access or as good as you can get. Just a shame that most things are still 1Gb/s.

So I learnt something I hope from the couple of videos I have watched, I hope.

Thanks for the info.

Right just an add on to this post, I have been having a look at the zoom website, this is what they say "A little grey ‘Wallbox’ will go on the outside wall of your property and a black ‘Fibre connection box’ will go on the inside of your property. You may want these boxes to be discreet so think where you’d like them to go." then I presume an Ethernet cable will go from the black box to the router.

Also on the street it is not a cabinet, this is also from their website, "We may need to dig a trench. Our Full Fibre network is currently built to the boundary line of your property, you can see this by looking for a small black box in the pavement with ‘Zzoomm’ on it. The first thing our engineers need to do is connect your home to the black box in the ground. This may involve digging a small trench through your front garden (don’t worry we’re neat). But just think, do you have a rosebush you want us to avoid? Or some buried pets? If you can see the black box you can see what route we may take, and you can discuss your options with our engineers when they come to install your service."

Edited by zyborg47 (Tue 02-Feb-21 11:33:20)

In reply to a post by partial:

Unprotected tubes shallow buried will get damaged and fill with water and later block with silt. In my view it has always been a mistake to build on the cheap and nasty.

If I leave early enough for work and I see them and think about it, I will have a chat with them, that is if they want to.

i just wonder where they are going to put the cabinets in the street, if they put them close to BT own cabinets, then mine is a fair distance, unless they put them under the road.

i must admit, when I saw a video of them installing a fibre to someone property, i did think the fibre was a bit close to the surface, they dug a bit of lawn up and then put the fibre just under it and put the lawn back down.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I realise that Zzoomm runs their own fibre infrastructure, like virgin and gigaclear.

i had a look at some videos, one of them showing open reach installation, they use a drop cable and the video I saw had the cable going into a box indoors, which is a Gpon terminal and then that is going to a plusnet router. I read that GPon is just a faster version of a PoN, the splitters was in the ground under a cover.

So Zzoomm box on outside is not active at all? The unit they are using on the inside for the connection from the fibre is a Smart/Rg SR400ac, which looks like a normal router, in fact it says router on the instructions and there is also a second one of these installed where even the customer want, so they have good Wi-fi all around the house
If I go for it, I will have one up here in the computer room, then I can connect my computer, printer and NAS directly to the lans on it, save having the network switch I have here.

It is all pretty interesting, I like learning about things like this, i set up a 10Gb/s network at a friends house a few weeks ago and that was a learning curve, used fibre for that, that was fun learning about SFP+ and transceivers and not all transceivers will work with all systems. But we got there in the end, and now she can access her NAS at the speed it is supposed to be access or as good as you can get. Just a shame that most things are still 1Gb/s.

So I learnt something I hope from the couple of videos I have watched, I hope.

Thanks for the info.

PON is the basic network standard / architecture. It comes in different flavours including GPON (what Openreach use). Although GPON is inherently an asymmetric standard, there is a faster, symmetric flavour too.

Other providers here in the UK are using next generation XGS-PON which is XG for 10 Gbit/s, S for symmetric so 10 Gbps in the upstream and downstream paths. Some like London based Community Fibre are already delivering 3 Gbit/s symmetrically to residential customers who want it and full 10 Gbits/s symmetric for business customers.

Openreach have trailed XGS-PON but not rolled it out (yet). They could do so without replacing any fibre etc 'in the ground' as the same fibre network will happily run GPON and XGS-PON and can rollout and operate both standards simultaneously as downstream and upstream the wavelengths for GPON and XGS-PON don't overlap.

Also fair to point out that other FTTP alt net providers have decided not to use PON technology at all to deliver their services.

Some like Gigaclear use a more 'traditional' point-to-point (PtP) architecture which is more or less LAN derived.

PtP based FTTP is quite a different beast to Openreach style GPON based FTTP. PtP architecture requires more "active" infrastructure at the providers side, because it is "star" based requiring a one for one active pluggable for each customer. Typically they will provision this in a distributed fashion with the active equipment serving customer housed in nodes/cabinets, in similar fashion to FTTC/VDSL.

Note that PON is a "tree-and-branch" based topology, taking the fibre all the way back to a head-end exchange (not necessarily the local exchange for copper services). No active gear other than in the customer premises.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I thought that above a certain length there would need to be some sort of system to boast it, even light will fade after a certain distance.

The losses in single-mode fibre are low. GPON networks (with passive splitters) can achieve distances of around 20km from wherever the headend is. Point-to-point optical networks can go much longer in a single span.

Openreach can reach most properties directly from a head-end exchange. To serve ultra-remote properties, they do occasionally use a "subtended headend" which is basically a mini-OLT sitting in a cabinet.

I would expect Zzoomm to place their optical line termination equipment somewhere within the footprint that can reach all the properties directly.

Where they put what cabinets ??? This is FTTP. No cabinets.

"at a friends house a few weeks ago "

With covid restrictions this may well have been illegal.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Where they put what cabinets ??? This is FTTP. No cabinets.

This is an altnet (Zzoomm) we're talking about.

I've seen both Cityfibre and Gigaclear cabinets: they are passive, unpowered cabinets. I don't know what Zzoom do.

+1 There is danger to presume that FTTP automatically => GPON (or XGPON or XGSPON)

There's a good comparison article for PON and PtP architectures here:
https://www.ppc-online.com/blog/fiber-to-the-premise...

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I would expect Zzoomm to place their optical line termination equipment somewhere within the footprint that can reach all the properties directly.

Stand to be corrected, but having done a quick search it appears that Zzoomm use XGS-PON (and Adtran ONTs)

Yep, lots and lots of Cityfibre cabs on our estate, seems to be at junctions of 2 or 3 streets, although I've not really taken a proper survey

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

+1 There is danger to presume that FTTP automatically => GPON (or XGPON or XGSPON)

There is also a presumption that GPON => no cabinets. This isn't true; Cityfibre are GPON, and they do use cabinets.

Yeah they've got to put nodes (splices, splitters and aggregation points) somewhere - either tuck it into a UG chamber or put it above ground in a cabinet (or up a pole). Got to go somewhere.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Where they put what cabinets ??? This is FTTP. No cabinets.

This is an altnet (Zzoomm) we're talking about.

I've seen both Cityfibre and Gigaclear cabinets: they are passive, unpowered cabinets. I don't know what Zzoom do.

they have something in the street as they say look out for black covers.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Stand to be corrected, but having done a quick search it appears that Zzoomm use XGS-PON (and Adtran ONTs)

Er? something else to read up about

In reply to a post by broadband66:

"at a friends house a few weeks ago "

With covid restrictions this may well have been illegal.

Oh well,

Hahaha. Have a light bedtime read of the link I posted above that explains the differences between PON and PtP.

Then have a read of what's coming down the pipe in a few years...

https://www.lightwaveonline.com/fttx/pon-systems/art...

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Hahaha. Have a light bedtime read of the link I posted above that explains the differences between PON and PtP.

Then have a read of what's coming down the pipe in a few years...

https://www.lightwaveonline.com/fttx/pon-systems/art...

LOL, bedtime, no, but I will have a look later, I got to do some stuff today, so will be busy for a lot of it.
Thanks

What do you mean "Oh well"?

You're one of the idiots that is endangering others.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I've seen both Cityfibre and Gigaclear cabinets: they are passive, unpowered cabinets. I don't know what Zzoom do.

The Gigaclear cabinet that I am connected to is certainly powered.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

What do you mean "Oh well"?

You're one of the idiots that is endangering others.

You're making huge assumptions.

I bet you're 1 of the idiots that approaches people in supermarkets due not having a mask on.

Visiting a friend does not necessarily mean a rule breach. It's rude of you to assume it is.
There are different rules in the 4 Nations of the UK. They aren't all the same as England and it's ignorant to assume otherwise.

I visit my friend every 2nd day.
He's shielding. As he lives alone he's allowed to join my bubble. That's exactly what we've done.
Twice I've had comments when entering his house by self righteous [censored] like yourself who need to mind their own business.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Where they put what cabinets ??? This is FTTP. No cabinets.

This is an altnet (Zzoomm) we're talking about.

I've seen both Cityfibre and Gigaclear cabinets: they are passive, unpowered cabinets. I don't know what Zzoom do.

they have something in the street as they say look out for black covers.

CityFibre apparently using Hellerman Tyton as a supplier for their outside plant cabinets etc..

All the gear in the photos here is passive splice trays and connector blocks. No active gear as its all GPON and in future XGS-PON.

https://www.cityfibre.com/news/hellermanntyton-signs...

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I've seen both Cityfibre and Gigaclear cabinets: they are passive, unpowered cabinets. I don't know what Zzoom do.

The Gigaclear cabinet that I am connected to is certainly powered.

Am certainly no expert on their network, but it would stand to reason that some Gigaclear cabinets (possibly further upstream) are powered to support ethernet active gear such as these IP-MSAN units from DZS:

https://www.dzsi.de/en/gigaclear-relies-on-keymile-f...

Other cabinets further downstream (closer to the customer) may be passive junctions for splices or aggregation style nodes

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

You're making huge assumptions.

I bet you're 1 of the idiots that approaches people in supermarkets due not having a mask on.

Visiting a friend does not necessarily mean a rule breach. It's rude of you to assume it is.
There are different rules in the 4 Nations of the UK. They aren't all the same as England and it's ignorant to assume otherwise.

I visit my friend every 2nd day.
He's shielding. As he lives alone he's allowed to join my bubble. That's exactly what we've done.
Twice I've had comments when entering his house by self righteous [censored] like yourself who need to mind their own business.

Do you have to be so nasty? Everyone knows Adrian is in England not Scotland like your good self.

Edited by deleted (Wed 03-Feb-21 22:35:22)

You need to check your covid rules. Similar bubbles are permitted in England.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

You need to check your covid rules. Similar bubbles are permitted in England.

Still doesn't change the fact that you are being nasty for no good reason

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

You need to check your covid rules. Similar bubbles are permitted in England.

Still doesn't change the fact that you are being nasty for good reason

Fixed that for you.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

You need to check your covid rules. Similar bubbles are permitted in England.

Still doesn't change the fact that you are being nasty for good reason

Fixed that for you.

You know you aren't suppose to quote other peoples posts and change the wording in them to mean something totally different.

You may know your Broadband stuff j0hn83 but you are a [censored] [censored]

Edited by deleted (Wed 03-Feb-21 22:58:42)

The Gigaclear box I have at home is made by a company called Genexis. It uses a proprietary protocol to communicate to the cabinet which I assume contains equipment made by the same company.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

The Gigaclear box I have at home is made by a company called Genexis. It uses a proprietary protocol to communicate to the cabinet which I assume contains equipment made by the same company.

Looks like they make just the premises side network termination gear:
https://genexis.eu/products
What’s the model of the box?

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

The Gigaclear box I have at home is made by a company called Genexis. It uses a proprietary protocol to communicate to the cabinet which I assume contains equipment made by the same company.

The street cabinet may or may not contain powered equipment. It could just be where cables are joined or spliced, or where cables are connected to passive splitters.

There are big incentives to avoid powered equipment outside of the headend POP. There's the ongoing cost of maintaining a powered connection, and of periodic safety maintenance, and the higher risk of outage.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

https://www.cityfibre.com/news/hellermanntyton-signs...

Looks like a green Openreach cabinet. How can you tell if its OR or CityFibre? Do CF 'brand' their cabinets?

In reply to a post by broadband66:

What do you mean "Oh well"?

You're one of the idiots that is endangering others.

Really? You know nothing of my relationship with this person, or about if we are in a support bubble.

I have more chance of catching this virus at work or while out shopping., than going to sort out a network for someone.
That is all I am going to say on the topic, a[part from mind your own business.

Oh yeah, just to make you even more angry, I went shopping today with another friend.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

CityFibre apparently using Hellerman Tyton as a supplier for their outside plant cabinets etc..

All the gear in the photos here is passive splice trays and connector blocks. No active gear as its all GPON and in future XGS-PON.

https://www.cityfibre.com/news/hellermanntyton-signs...

Zzoomm uses Hexatronic UK, who ever they are.

The person I spoke to said the fibre is buried 4 meters down, that is a fair depth, but that could only be where I have seen them digging, I presume they have to be pretty deep there. I asked him how long it will take to cover the whole city he said 3 years, I said I could be dead by then. He laughed.
That is a fair bit of time, but I wonder if that means the outskirts as well, he said they should be up where I am in the next 6 months or so, i still have to wait anyway.

4 metres? I doubt it - if they were digging out and laying at that depth very specialised plant would be needed.

In reply to a post by MHC:

4 metres? I doubt it - if they were digging out and laying at that depth very specialised plant would be needed.

Maybe a decimal point missing. 0.4m is more likely, even that would be good going.

For anyone that wants to know, there is some information about the Gigaclear street infrastructure at https://gc-production-s3.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/...

When fibre was laid past my house, they cut down about 120-150mm, smashed through drains, put their duct in, backfilled (not much) then 20mm of tarmac badly laid and that was it.

They won't be burying anything 4m down. The only thing 4m deep is a typical BT manhole which they may be using. The ducts between manholes are usually pretty deep, commonly over a metre in order to keep the big cables out of harms way.

The new guys are building very shoddily. Tubes are unprotected, very shallow and vulnerable to damage.

I stumbled across a typical Virgin Lightning build here at around 50mm. These tubes will be cut by anyone with an angle grinder lifting the asphalt

https://www.flickr.com/photos/curlycom/50342683387/

The box is a Genexis Hybrid Live Titanium. It has a CATV and a telephone connector neither of which I can use. I ordered the service in Feb 2013 and it first worked in April 2015. There is nothing in the menus to let the user change the telephone settings.

When I was connected neither my Cisco SPA112 or Gigaset N300IP would connect to VOIP providers, but strangely CsipSimple pn my mobile would work. A clever person from Voipfone was able to get the SPA112 to connect after I gave him remote access. He changed some obscure setting. I also complained to Gigaclear. A lady there changed the router remotely and ever after that the N300IP has worked.

I also don't see anything about the box I have on the Genexis.eu website. I suspect that they may have changed their product range.

The cabinets is full of cards each of which has several fibre cables going to it. It took someone a week to attach the tails to the incoming fibre cables. I remember a trench being dug for the incoming power supply. On the side of the box there is a little window so that the electricity meter can be seen and read. I was told that the box is connected to an upstream box by 6 fibres.

The person I spoke to said the fibre is buried 4 meters down,

Really ? Sounds like twaddle to me. Buried so deep two average people stood on each other’s shoulders wouldn’t appear out of the trench ???? It seems ridiculous.

Edited by Zarjaz (Thu 04-Feb-21 16:55:00)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by MHC:

4 metres? I doubt it - if they were digging out and laying at that depth very specialised plant would be needed.

Maybe a decimal point missing. 0.4m is more likely, even that would be good going.

The one I asked said 4metre, and then he shouted at the bloke on the JCB thing, and he came back with 400, 400 what?
400cm would be 4 metres, 400mm would be 40cm, but surely that would not be deep enough.

In reply to a post by partial:

They won't be burying anything 4m down. The only thing 4m deep is a typical BT manhole which they may be using. The ducts between manholes are usually pretty deep, commonly over a metre in order to keep the big cables out of harms way.

The new guys are building very shoddily. Tubes are unprotected, very shallow and vulnerable to damage.

I stumbled across a typical Virgin Lightning build here at around 50mm. These tubes will be cut by anyone with an angle grinder lifting the asphalt

https://www.flickr.com/photos/curlycom/50342683387/

The exchange is not far from where they are, and I presume there are a lot of BT cables to go down there, but surely they would use ducts already there, so no need to dig?

I presume they know what they are doing after all they have done this in another town.

I would love to know more, but I really don't want to trouble them.


Hit that fibre hard enough with that spade and I expect it would break.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The person I spoke to said the fibre is buried 4 meters down,

Really ? Sounds like twaddle to me. Buried so deep two average people stood on each other’s shoulders wouldn’t appear out of the trench ???? It seems ridiculous.

I thought it was a bit deep and to be honest the trench I saw the day before did not look anywhere near deep enough, see my posts above

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by MHC:

4 metres? I doubt it - if they were digging out and laying at that depth very specialised plant would be needed.

Maybe a decimal point missing. 0.4m is more likely, even that would be good going.

The one I asked said 4metre, and then he shouted at the bloke on the JCB thing, and he came back with 400, 400 what?
400cm would be 4 metres, 400mm would be 40cm, but surely that would not be deep enough.

400mm on a pavement sounds right, certainly for Openreach if not ZZoom

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

... nested quotes trimmed ...

Maybe a decimal point missing. 0.4m is more likely, even that would be good going.

The one I asked said 4metre, and then he shouted at the bloke on the JCB thing, and he came back with 400, 400 what?
400cm would be 4 metres, 400mm would be 40cm, but surely that would not be deep enough.

400mm on a pavement sounds right, certainly for Openreach if not ZZoom

Slightly shallower. See the Street works guidelines page 10.

http://streetworks.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/11...

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Slightly shallower. See the Street works guidelines page 10.

http://streetworks.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/11...

Thanks for the link

No worries. It’s a handy reference. At least that’s where the gear is supposed to be

In reply to a post by dect:

400mm on a pavement sounds right, certainly for Openreach if not ZZoom

Looking at some videos on you Tube about Zzoomm, it looks about 400mm.

I have been looking at some reviews, while Zzoomm is only in one town at the moment, most of the reviews are good. Some complain about the routers that are used, to be honest I have never heard of an Adtran SmartRG 400.
We will see what happens, even if by some miracle it does come here in six months, I will still be in contract with plusnet until January next year, according to the email I had when I started this contract, the price will rise to £35.98 a month, from the £23 I am paying now. We will see what Plusnet can offer me when the time comes, but I will certainly not be paying £35.98. 12 months is a long time, even if it doesn't seem like it and anything can happen, I may not even be living here then.

I do not really need the speed, which is why I will see if Plusnet can do a better deal when the time comes. but saying all of that, I am still interested in the technology and how it is done and for households that have a few people in, I am sure fibre will be good for them.

I think Bt is also going to put Fibre in around here at some point.