Openreach and Reluctant Factor

Hello

I was wondering if the collective wisdom can provide some ideas. Here are my details.

I'm a homeowner in an Edinburgh Multi-Dwelling Unit in which Openreach is willing to install fttp backbone access, (they'll install to hallway utility cabinets on each floor). There are also other owners in the building who would like fftp access.

Openreach require permission to do the installation and the Factor is being reluctant to say the least.

I have the support of my buildings committee in allowing Openreach access but am unsure if they can override an obnoxious Factor. Any suggestions on how to deal with a fractious Factor?

Thank You

I am guessing this what is called "Leasehold" in England and the Factor is the Freeholders representative.

It is all too common, the refusal to allow access and often without good reason just that they cannot bothered to read and sign the wayleave needed.

Check your lease (or equivalent) and does it have a clause about access to maintain, re-install, repair, update incoming services? That will be one way - can you imagine the furore if he/she refused Scottish Power approval to repair incoming electrical service!

Ask him/her as to why they are being obstructive and point out there is no cost to them. And if the comment above applies throw that at them.

There is a positive spin too: it's a free upgrade to the building which makes it more attractive to future tenants. (But don't let them use that as an excuse to put the rent up now

In reply to a post by bozotklown:

I have the support of my buildings committee in allowing Openreach access but am unsure if they can override an obnoxious Factor. Any suggestions on how to deal with a fractious Factor?

Factors, eh?! They should do what you (the owners) tell them. Have a formal meeting and decide you want FTTC then tell the factor of your decision and to allow Openreach to get on with it. All factors are a pain.

In reply to a post by MHC:

I am guessing this what is called "Leasehold" in England and the Factor is the Freeholders representative.

You guess wrong! The owners of each apartment are the owners of the whole building, they are not leaseholders they are the freeholders. The factor is a person appointed by the owners to undertake general maintenance, stair cleaning etc as well as major works at the direction of the owners.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

There is a positive spin too: it's a free upgrade to the building which makes it more attractive to future tenants. (But don't let them use that as an excuse to put the rent up now

As OP says, they're not renting, they're an owner. It's in Scotland which is a different country with different law and ways of doing things!

It's difficult to suggest a solution. You can try teaming up with your residents (neighbours) of your building and give pressure on the authority especially if there are leaseholder's board meetings.

My area was once planned for FTTP from Openreach and local building housing association (EastendHomes) here in Central London rejected wayleave agreement for both Openreach FTTP and Hyperoptic.

My plan was then reverted to FTTC and I finally got FTTC in October 2019, formerly I was on an Exchange Only Line which, gave me only 12Mbps with constant drop-outs regardless of provider.

For years Openreach Superfast was on a plan. Till this day the next 2-3 buildings near me in Central London still haven't even been upgraded to FTTC and they don't have FTTP as they are part of the same housing association who rejected FTTP wayleave! I feel sorry for them.

The problem is now with the Covid-19 lockdown, it is even more difficult to get hold of your authority as no meetings are taking place. The office is closed.

It is a simple case of having 1-2 people from the management team who are the obstacle to granting wayleave. In my case it is a Technical Services Manager called John Hinds who from the feedback of the Hyperoptic team, he has been hanging up their phone calls to avoid any talk. There is so much bureaucracy and red tape surrounding Fibre. The Housing Estate Manager has no power of his own and speaks on behalf of the Technical Services Manager, I have never managed to get hold of him in person and my emails from the Technical Services Manager have always been ignored.

Anyway, for now I am happy that I have FTTC and get 80/20 but then again, my authority has zero contribution for it and complete disregard for the suffering that I had gone through before that on ADSL. They probably aren't even aware that I now have FTTC, that's how indifferent they really are!

Unfortunately there is currently no UK law and order when it comes to having decent broadband. You can't sue your management team, unless of-course you are some very rich person who is willing to take them to court.

If that is teh case then why is approval needed?

The Factors I have to deal with in Scotland are appointed by te owners for running their properties and estates and are not simple maintenance people or cleaners.

In reply to a post by MHC:

The Factors I have to deal with in Scotland are appointed by te owners for running their properties and estates and are not simple maintenance people or cleaners.

I agree as I thought Factors in Scotland were the same as Property Managers in England who look after the freehold on behalf of the Freeholder. The Factor would still have to take instruction from the Freeholder (or whatever they are called in Scotland) if fibre was to be installed so I would suggest the OP tries to get in contact with them directly if the Factor isn't playing ball.

Edit: corrected a number of mistakes

Edited by deleted (Fri 26-Feb-21 15:41:07)

In reply to a post by MHC:

If that is teh case then why is approval needed?

I don't believe the factor's approval is needed. But factors... Anyone who's lived in a flat in Scotland knows they can be a law unto themselves. They won't do what you ask, they will do what they want. Sometimes they will come into your stair and do what was asked - by the people in the next stair.

There is the slight possibility OP lives in a listed tenement, but by the sound of their description they don't. That would lead to a whole different kettle of factors.

Yes, similar situation to me where I am the leaseholder, (well my parents are). The freeholders are the building management team/housing association. Leaseholder has no say because we don't own the whole building.

There's also that problem where leaseholders don't live in the building but use it to rent out particularly in my case where I live near City of London. That means fewer leaseholders less vocal pressure applied on authority as they live far away in different houses/flats.

This means you've got useless temporary tenants living in the building who will never ever interact with the local authority or attend any such meetings because they know they may quit the place any time soon and move out to another flat.

Because FTTP is not yet a UK tradition like in Europe. Freeholders are reluctant to make an agreement. I'm 90% certain that when the UK FTTP coverage expands further, let's just say above 50% then wayleaves will be granted with greater ease.

People and individual bosses will eventually know the importance of FTTP when they finally recognize and appreciate it themselves! That is when they will grant us wayleave spontaneously. But now they are just treating it like some nuisance rocket science.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by MHC:

The Factors I have to deal with in Scotland are appointed by te owners for running their properties and estates and are not simple maintenance people or cleaners.

I agree as I thought Factors in Scotland were the same as Property Managers in England who look after the freehold on behalf of the Freeholder. The Factor would still have to take instruction from the Freeholder (or whatever they are called in Scotland) if fibre was to be installed so I would suggest the OP tries to get in contact with them directly if the Factor isn't playing ball.

Edit: corrected a number of mistakes

There is no building freeholder in Scotland. The factor, which is essentially the same as an English property management company, is appointed by the property owners are supposed to act in the best interests of the owners in managing the building, and a new factor can always be appointed. Many apartment buildings in Scotland have no factor and just organise things between the owners but of course when repairs come collecting the money can be a challenge, so the right for an appointed factor company to perform repairs and collect the fee is usually written into the title deeds for the apartments themselves.

As the OP is the owner the only real ultimate power he'd have would be to appoint a new more helpful factor which would require that a majority of the other owners are on board. From my experiences in a few different properties in Scotland, just like in England it's difficult to find a decent one and the service often seems to depend on the competence of whoever the individual property manager you get stuck with. We found that by having residents meetings and inviting the property manager along helped push things along as the rep would leave the meeting knowing exactly the feelings amongst owners on different issues, albeit this isn't really possible right now. So perhaps a letter signed by all the owners who want fibre installed along with some supporting documentation from Openreach related to the installation is the way to go?

I wish there was a 'LIKE' button for some of Woolwich's posts above.

As some others have said, the owners need to decide and instruct the factors.
As the OP says in the OP the building committee is supportive.
I think the best way forward is organising a meeting of the owners/residents specifically to discuss this and to decide on a way forward.
(How you're going to do that during whatever lockdown is your problem though ).
Then assuming the meeting is agreeable - and it might need a certain number of owners to agree - get a letter to the factors instructing them to proceed as you desire.

At the end of the day you do have the possibility of replacing the factors. I know it's not easy.

You should probably confirm that the building committee you mention is solely for your building, that is, the one you're concerned about for FTTP.
You'd need to be sure that the people coming to the meeting are the same as those sharing the common charges. You probably know from your regular common charges bills how many and which flats are part of that.

The cynic in me says the factor is reluctant because they are lazy. If they agree they will have some work to do. If they brush it off they don't have any work to do. In doing so they are not complying with the legally binding code of conduct factors in Scotland have to comply with.

It would appear the way forward is to get the building committee to may make a "property factor enforcement order", requiring the property factor to enable Openreach to install FTTP. Failure to comply with such an order without reasonable excuse is a criminal offence in terms of section 24 of the Property Factors (Scotland) Act 2011.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/property-factors-s...

Breaching the code of conduct could lead them to being struck off the register of factors, which would be bad news for them as they could no longer legally act as a factor for anyone in Scotland which would be bad for business.

You say the building committee are on your side which frankly does not surprise me, the last 11 months have laid bare the importance of good broadband, so it's time to give the factor a kick up the backside with a legal boot.

Well finally a law is being passed to resolve wayleave disputes!
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/03/new-uk...
and https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/8939-elecoms-inf...

It was about time and hopefully now we won't have to nag at our management teams to make an agreement happen for FTTP. I'm positively certain that sooner or later an agreement will be granted and installation will follow at least in the next 1-2 years after a wayleave agreement is made.

What makes you think that a the law mentioned has any relevance in Scotland? The TL;DR is that none whatsoever is the correct answer.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

What makes you think that a the law mentioned has any relevance in Scotland? The TL;DR is that none whatsoever is the correct answer.

It applies to all four nations, no?

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefi...

It has because Scotland is part of the UK. So if an implementation like that is made, it applies to the whole of the UK not just England.

Even if theoretically it didn't apply to Scotland, this rule will still follow through as an inspiration.

This law is implemented as of today for all high rise buildings where rogue landlords fail to respond to wayleave agreements!

That law refers to Leaseholders, will it give the same benefit to properties in Scotland where the individual apartments are owned? ie Will it get round the Factor problem?

I hope so.

Cheers!

Definitely covers Scotland:

From: https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/docume... for example.

The committee stage of the Billtook place on 11 February 2020. There were three Government amendments made that related to changing the Court in which Part 4A proceedings would be heard, from the Lands Tribunal, to the First-Tier Tribunal (in England and Wales) and the sheriff court (in Scotland). This was due to resource capacity issues raised in relation to the Lands Tribunal.

Didn't realize they where sidestepping devolution in the guise of it being telecommunications. In general wayleaves are devolved, but clearly Boris and co will never learn.

Boris is Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and runs the UK Government - he is quite entitled to introduce legislation that covers ALL of the UK.

And if you bother to check facts you will find the bill was supported by the SNP and covers England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Its a real shame that this needs to be explained to some on here.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

Didn't realize they where sidestepping devolution in the guise of it being telecommunications. In general wayleaves are devolved, but clearly Boris and co will never learn.

Nothing to do with Boris

“The Bill would amend the Electronic Communications Code (the Code), contained in Schedule 3A to the Communications Act 2003 (as amended).


The Bill would insert a new Part 4A. The new Part 4A would provide a process that telecommunications operators could use to gain access rights (called “code rights”) to multi-dwelling premises for a defined period.

The Bill would apply to the whole of the UK because telecommunications is a reserved power.”

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefi...

In reply to a post by Ancient_Mariner:

That law refers to Leaseholders, will it give the same benefit to properties in Scotland where the individual apartments are owned? ie Will it get round the Factor problem?

I hope so.

Cheers!

Should do.

“Two Opposition amendments were made to the Bill during the Lords report stage:
Amendment 1 aims to clarify that premises occupied by rental tenants and other legal occupants in exclusive possession are within scope of the Bill.

Amendment 3 added a new clause 3 that would require the Government to review the impact of the Act on the Code within 6 months of coming into force.

Government Amendment 2, made on third reading, aims to ensure that operators would not install equipment in an anti-competitive manner and that consumers would not be “locked in” to a single provider.”

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefi...

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

It has because Scotland is part of the UK. So if an implementation like that is made, it applies to the whole of the UK not just England.

Even if theoretically it didn't apply to Scotland, this rule will still follow through as an inspiration.

This law is implemented as of today for all high rise buildings where rogue landlords fail to respond to wayleave agreements!

Not law (an Act of Parliament) quite yet. Has yet to receive Royal Assent before it becomes such. The text of the bill though has been agreed with both Houses of Parliament.

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/2520/news