Moving ONT

Hi guys

I'm thinking of moving my ONT a couple of metres. I've noticed there's a reel of spare fibre inside the CSP - is it as simple a process as reeling some of the spare fibre off the CSP and moving the ONT (which is loosely hung off two screws fastened into the wall)

or is there more to it?

The CSP is directly the other side of the wall to the ONT so only about 40-50cm of fibre between the CSP and the ONT

TIA

Edited by deleted (Wed 11-Aug-21 10:45:50)

The spare fibre is in case there is any issue and the fibre needs to be re-terminated. If you remove that slack by moving it then it could cause issues if you have any problems in future. Technically the ONT is BTs and only they are allowed to move it so I believe you would be in breach of contract - whether that makes any material difference will depend on circumstances and how BT react if they realise it has been moved by you.

In reply to a post by simonh__:

Hi guys

I'm thinking of moving my ONT a couple of metres. I've noticed there's a reel of spare fibre inside the CSP - is it as simple a process as reeling some of the spare fibre off the CSP and moving the ONT (which is loosely hung off two screws fastened into the wall)

or is there more to it?

The CSP is directly the other side of the wall to the ONT so only about 40-50cm of fibre between the CSP and the ONT

TIA

Officially: There is a 'facility' (and charge) to have the ONT moved by Openreach. You could speak with your provider and they would be able to confirm charges. As said everything up to and including the ONT actually forms 'their' side of the network, as such verboten.

Unofficially: As long as you understand the potential downsides, you can actually move them without too much trauma. The main thing is not to bastardise the fibre; overbend it, crush it, or get the ferrule (white tip of the connector) dirty or damaged. I wont go on about SC/APC extension leads as it will probably land me in hot water with the cognoscenti.

Thanks for the replies.

Maybe it's better not to play with the ONT then

But one of these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fiber-Patch-Cable-Single-Si...

and one of these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Axing-1-03-Optical-Cable-Co...

might help me?

Yep that would never work 😉😎

Oh dear that's a real shame

He is, of course, being sarcastic.

But don't buy at those inflated Amazon prices. Couplers are pennies (39p) on fs.com, and cables a couple of pounds.

The cable needs to be single-mode (OS2). However you will first need to find out, from someone who knows, whether Openreach uses UPC or APC connectors.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

He is, of course, being sarcastic.

But don't buy at those inflated Amazon prices. Couplers are pennies (39p) on fs.com, and cables a couple of pounds.

The cable needs to be single-mode (OS2). However you will first need to find out, from someone who knows, whether Openreach uses UPC or APC connectors.

Definitely APC (green).

FS are great, but there is a min delivery charge of around £20. Amazon bit dearer, but usually quick delivery and no quibble returns, should there be any issues.

Yup, APC for PON networks and stuff like RFoG where reflections can cause problems for lots of people, UPC for their ethernet services.

fs.com shipping for a single coupler is £12.00 (I just checked).

Free delivery if you exceed £79, so if you need to stock up on patch panels / CAT5e cables / SFPs etc then it's a no-brainer.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

fs.com shipping for a single coupler is £12.00 (I just checked).

Free delivery if you exceed £79, so if you need to stock up on patch panels / CAT5e cables / SFPs etc then it's a no-brainer.

Swings and roundabouts. I was just thinking for a one off Amazon is usually not too bad. The couplers are sure dear though.

As well as FS, I've bought plenty of gear over the years from EuroDK who are a huge network reseller based out of Latvia. A box of 50 Ubiquiti UFiber labelled SC/APC couplers there is £5.70 (admittedly before VAT) but still around 12p per coupler and shipping is £7.70 if you can wait around 10 days for the post. Obv. bigger orders it makes sense to use a faster shipping method.

Edited by Pheasant (Wed 11-Aug-21 16:31:57)

Another option could be:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284161864987

Not cheap, but quick.

Cheers!

Sheesh yeh someone's whiffed a 'business opportunity' there...😂

Essential parts, from a UK network wholesaler. Delivered total £12.79

https://postimg.cc/pp8J7zRp

Edited by Pheasant (Wed 11-Aug-21 16:48:14)

My experience of those ‘little white boxes’ is that they are pants … high loss central, add to that, folk doing it themselves … getting dirt and bends where none existed previously …..

cue the stream of, “it’ll be alright” posts.

I think this thread highlights how important it is to get the ONT fitted in a place where it can stay for the long haul rather than it needing moving after a short period of time.

I know as time goes on people will move home and won't have a choice (as it will already be fitted) but for me personally a lounge wall is possibly the worse possible place for the end users although possibly the best place for an Openreach engineer to fit it.

I always found RS Components excellent when in business. Their "APC Connectors" page.

(I've no idea if anything there is relevant! Just thought it worth posting another alternative).

Your link won’t open for me Bob.

Hmmm. I'm not sure why.

I just googled
RS Components

Then in their search box entered
APC connectors

The raw link is https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/?sra=oss&r=t&searchTe...
but if that still doesn't work then do as above?

Let me know how it goes please .

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

My experience of those ‘little white boxes’ is that they are pants … high loss central, add to that, folk doing it themselves … getting dirt and bends where none existed previously …..

Not to mention that the eBay product introduces not one but two additional non-spliced joints in the fibre. A pretty poor way of doing it.

How much is typically 'spare' in the Openreach PON loss budget? How long until someone installs one of these which works as it's the right side of borderline, but subsequent work to the Openreach plant eats into the margin, breaking that customer's service...

Strange, opens for me, but nothing shown looks of any use!

Cheers!

In reply to a post by dect:

I think this thread highlights how important it is to get the ONT fitted in a place where it can stay for the long haul rather than it needing moving after a short period of time.

I know as time goes on people will move home and won't have a choice (as it will already be fitted) but for me personally a lounge wall is possibly the worse possible place for the end users although possibly the best place for an Openreach engineer to fit it.

Just out of interest as I am having openreach FTTP fitted next year if the roll out is on time as per what the OR team have been telling me for the last year (still on schedule). Will OR install an ONT in a different room to where the existing MK 5 copper master socket is located (in the lounge) (although there is no copper going to it as a couple of VM engineers decided to cut it when doing a repull), would they be able to put it on the second floor running the cable outside and along side of a gutter if the room is directly above the OR UG feed (by front door).

Do you happen to know how lient they tend to be running a cable along and up a building if its as simple as line of sight and round a VM omnibox. diagram attached below. Applogies for the quality i decided to use google map imagery as they updated it this week. VM omnibox hidden between plants.
Diagram

In reply to a post by RR_The_IT_Guy:

diagram attached below. Applogies for the quality i decided to use google map imagery as they updated it this week. VM omnibox hidden between plants.
Diagram

Sorry I can't answer your main question but I had to reply as I couldn't believe how close up the google street view of your property was.

Edited by deleted (Wed 11-Aug-21 23:29:48)

yeah they can't reverse out as its a private driveway with concealed boulders that literally damage bodywork and tires, it has been done many times by guests and people thinking they can reverse all the way back to the main road. They always try reversing a bit then they admit defeat and come back and turn around as there is only one car at the property and there is space for 3 or 4 at most they go quite far back to turn. which explains how close they are.

The ‘raw link’ works.

In reply to a post by ft247:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

My experience of those ‘little white boxes’ is that they are pants … high loss central, add to that, folk doing it themselves … getting dirt and bends where none existed previously …..

Not to mention that the eBay product introduces not one but two additional non-spliced joints in the fibre. A pretty poor way of doing it.

How much is typically 'spare' in the Openreach PON loss budget? How long until someone installs one of these which works as it's the right side of borderline, but subsequent work to the Openreach plant eats into the margin, breaking that customer's service...

A simple mated connection through coupler and short extension should (don’t try this if you’re a ham fisted herbert) only add 0.3 or tops 0.5 dB to the loss of the link.

Tip hygiene is numero uno, (properly clean your tips kids) especially with the small core size of single mode.


Adding more mated connections beyond that is just stupidity.

*** never look into the end of a connector on a live fibre net, unless you wish to risk suffering long term retinal damage either. ***

Edited by Pheasant (Thu 12-Aug-21 11:13:48)

Depending how handy you are, I'd be tempted to just have the cable exit the CSP on the top of the existing capping and then go up into the porch roof, and penetrate the wall inside the porch. This avoids any holes in external walls where the weather can get to them, and means you aren't running the fibre cable across a doorway.

I wouldn't advise moving the ONT yourself, at least when I checked mine with a specific checker it appears that Openreach have notes on where it was originally installed. Therefore Openreach will know you've moved it if they need to do any repairs or changes at your premises, providing the engineer checks notes I guess.


See this screenshot for what I mean

Looking at that a move of a couple of meters within the same room may be got away with but a move to another room probably not.

But, if extending it with personal purchases that would be obvious if an engineer visited so if anything goes wrong all of that would need to be taken out and it moved back so the engineer doesn't see the fibre extension.

Indeed. Within the same room should be fine, but I doubt another room will work unless it can be defined as the same type of room (e.g. another bedroom on the same floor in my case).

Edited by Ixel (Thu 12-Aug-21 12:38:05)

Tagged to last post

The better option is to pay Openreach to move it (through the ISP). Advice is always helpful but some advice in the wrong hands can cause all sorts of issues and can cost a whole lot more when needing a professional to sort it out.

Edited by deleted (Thu 12-Aug-21 14:35:39)

You get reflections an APC as well. The main thing is the better mating so reduced optical loss. With PON the downstream signal is being split many ways (with Openreach I believe up to 32 ways) so reducing the optical loss is important. With more traditional networking where every connection gets its own fibre (or pair of fibres) then UPC is more than adequate.

Link worked for me.

W7 - Chrome

Note that everything from fs.com comes from Germany or from China via Germany. So you want to be over £79 but under the threshold (about £120 I think) otherwise it can get tied up in customs and the monkeys employed at UPS are not the brightest (your telephone number does not work doh it begins 44 you moron, my 76 year old mother knows what to do there) and it can get stuck for weeks. The problem is fs.com are not charging VAT as they exempt from duty anyway.

Took 46 days to get eight 40Gbps QSFP+'s and four MTP patch cables through customs. But hey the £30 from fs.com each and £250 for the switch vendor ones. Next order of some SFP+ cables over £79 but under £100 just sailed through.

The gift that is Brexit. Never any problems in the past.

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

You get reflections an APC as well. The main thing is the better mating so reduced optical loss. With PON the downstream signal is being split many ways (with Openreach I believe up to 32 ways) so reducing the optical loss is important. With more traditional networking where every connection gets its own fibre (or pair of fibres) then UPC is more than adequate.

Absolute insertion loss (which is what I think you're referring too when you say 'optical loss', correct me if I'm wrong) is basically the same for both end face types. APC through has superior return loss often by 10 dB or more which can be a massive difference.

UPC was traditionally used in LAN applications, as prior to the advent of BiDi's, optical links required a duplex path for Tx and Rx separate fibres- so you basically don't really give a stuff about return loss or reflections.

On analog circuits, CATV etc and also digital circuits that have forward and return bidirectional light on the same fibre core (e.g leased line, WAN comms), you very much do care about return loss and reflections so its typical to see APC specified in these apps. This is exacerbated by the somewhat higher / longer wavelengths used in these applications 1490nm, 1550nm, 1625nm etc. which are more susceptible to reflection.

Edited by Pheasant (Thu 12-Aug-21 17:59:40)

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

Note that everything from fs.com comes from Germany or from China via Germany. So you want to be over £79 but under the threshold (about £120 I think) otherwise it can get tied up in customs and the monkeys employed at UPS are not the brightest (your telephone number does not work doh it begins 44 you moron, my 76 year old mother knows what to do there) and it can get stuck for weeks. The problem is fs.com are not charging VAT as they exempt from duty anyway.

Took 46 days to get eight 40Gbps QSFP+'s and four MTP patch cables through customs. But hey the £30 from fs.com each and £250 for the switch vendor ones. Next order of some SFP+ cables over £79 but under £100 just sailed through.

The gift that is Brexit. Never any problems in the past.

Late December and January/February was a right nightmare to get anything through customs/delivery companies. It's a lot better since.

The worst I had was stuff back ordered in December (and earlier), that was delayed for other reasons, then which got caught in the new rules post January 1.

Edited by Pheasant (Thu 12-Aug-21 17:49:24)

This any help
https://www.premitel.uk/consultancy/expert-advice/ho...

In reply to a post by agkq62:

This any help
https://www.premitel.uk/consultancy/expert-advice/ho...

Same ones as on fleabay linked above no?

The issue with those is that they introduce multiple mated connections in that adapter box. It is not necessary at all as they claim. In fact it probably makes matters worse as you are introducing several potential places for contamination and also insertion loss of mated couplers is one of the worse things in a fibre link.

The best and easiest thing is to simply order a green SC/APC (simplex) single-mode coupler and an SC/APC simplex fibre patch lead (green connectors with yellow sheath) of the length required, no more and no less.

Carefully disconnect the fibre connector going into the ONT, connect it to one side of the new coupler. Take the patch lead from its bag, carefully remove the protective cap, connect it into the other side of the coupler. Take the other end, remove its protective cap and plug it into the ONT.

That is literally all there is to it. 20 seconds.

All yours for £12.79 delivered in 2 days from Comtec (one of the largest indy network and cabling wholesalers in the country).

Edited by Pheasant (Thu 12-Aug-21 19:41:28)

You're right... it didn't work...

No sooner had I unplugged the fibre from the ONT, there was a knock on the door... three OpenReach officers took me away. A ten hour interview under caution and I'm in the magistrates tomorrow morning. My solicitor says with an early guilty plea, some good mitigation and a lenient judge I may only get ten years inside. Because my wife ordered the cable on Amazon, it's a joint enterprise, so she's looking at a ten stretch too.

What's more, when we are finally released we're going to have to rebuild our house as the laser beam from the fibre has burnt the house down.

Don't try and move your ONT at home kids.

Dang. I'll bake you a cake. 😎😂

I thought the same looking at the premitel page too, not sure why there's all the faff with the extra joins and the box.

I should add the only reason I was looking at the premitel website was for research because someone I once knew who told me their distant relative's neighbour moved their ONT (not in the UK I should add).

it was a shade under £20 on Amazon, ordered yesterday, arrived today and even included a little isopropyl alcohol swab kit.

If was doing loads of these I'll probably shop around a bit, but for a one off when something needs doing like, yesterday, then Amazon's a no brainer

😂

So for 2M you would need about 7 turns on the larger diameter inside the CSP.
Do some measuring in the CSP and count the number of turns .

On Mine .
If my math's are correct from the Green SC-APC connector = 5Turns = 1.6M and the incoming fibre 6 Turns = 1.4M * Note there are two different diameters used.
With the 'Splice' held in the LH area clips, keep away from that !..

You would Only uncoil the Fibre that goes to the green ONT connector.

My installer said (off the record) that he had put extra in the CSP if I wanted to move the ONT