Universal Service Obligation

Hello, I am hoping that someone may be able to help with a question or two.

1. We are a group of 4 eligible houses under the USO and we have received a FTTP quotation. (no 4G is available)

2.. We might prefer to use the voucher scheme and possibly include another 3 properties which are not USO eligible. Can anyone please explain whether our only alternative to the USO route would be the Community Broadband Scheme when it re-opens and could Openreach simply say that in response to any such approach they have other priorities and refuse to quote. If so, would this also apply to any other supplier- Cerberus for example?

in case it is relevant

3. We are not included on any pre 2026 roll out plans for fibre and a search of our postcode says that we cannot order fibre.

4. We are 2.5 miles from the village exchange which is fibre enabled with FTTC available in the village but not to us due to distance and because we are in any event exchange only lines.

many thanks

In reply to a post by Munrobagger:

Can anyone please explain whether our only alternative to the USO route would be the Community Broadband Scheme when it re-opens and could Openreach simply say that in response to any such approach they have other priorities and refuse to quote. If so, would this also apply to any other supplier- Cerberus for example?

The FTTPoD route will cost you more. The CFP process could easily take 6 months or more to quote, and it *still* might cost more.

Cerberus won't refuse to quote: they will happily quote for a set of linked FTTPoD orders. But it will almost certainly be far more expensive than your USO quote. For one thing, there is a separate £500 commissioning charge from Cerberus and another from BT Wholesale, *per property*. That's on top of what Openreach charge for FTTPoD. You won't have the £3,700 per property deduction that your USO quote should have. And you'll also have to pay a higher monthly charge for the first 12 months.

In short I'd say: if the USO figure you've been quoted is anything near acceptable, and you can get the vouchers to go with it, then take it. Leave the other 3 houses which are not USO-eligible to their own devices.

When your service is installed, then the other 3 houses can order FTTPoD on their own. They might even benefit from the near-network pricing, if the current trial is extended.

Many thanks, I realise that it could be worse but the USO quote is such (five figures per property) that the project probably will not go ahead so it might be worth a try. Vouchers cannot be used with a USO quote and £7000 per business and £3000 vouchers are in theory at least available which will amount to the same or more than the £3400 subsidy. If we can add more properties that are not USO eligible that would actually produce a greater contribution but yes I know that there are other costs going the alternative route. I did also wonder whether different departments might come to different figures and we might strike luckly! The four houses are very lose together in a rural hamlet

To get some context, what is the USO quote per property to get FTTP installed?

Well, if the USO quote is so high you can't afford it, then you have nothing to lose by trying the other options. It will cost you £250+VAT to get a quote for FTTPoD. £3000 per property vouchers will lose at least half in the FTTPoD excess costs; about £1200 inc VAT per property for the connection charges, and about £300 - £450 for the higher monthly rental for the first year, on top of the fact you're paying "business" prices.

(Aside: I notice Cerberus have made their FTTPoD rental fairer: it's now only 50% on top of their standard FTTP pricing. Previously it was 100% on top)

We tried a CFP for our road here: it took over 6 months to get to a price, and then the price was also sky high - despite the fact that I'd already had FTTPoD installed and there's a splitter at the end of the road!

£38k plus Vat including 3 x£3400. If all 4 went for it that would reduce by another £3400. Hence around £10k per property which not everyone would pay which would leave more to pay for me. I suppose we would ask Openreach to open their crowdfunding option so that each of us could say how much they would be prepared to commit to pay. Many thanks once again

Are there any other networks operating vaguely in your area that voucher funds could be pledged to?

I don’t think there any harm necessarily in getting an FoD quote, if you don’t mind paying the survey fees.

Realistically however (near network trial pricing aside) I would hugely doubt it to be be vastly less than the quote you have been provided. Given that the average FOD floor price was around £8K before near network pricing, gives you a gauge of where the absolute best case minimum is likely to be…so you could be burning survey fees just to have that certainty that it’s actually far more expensive.

I doubt that very much but will have a look, thanks. Am discounting Elon musk's satellites for now!

I suspect, as you say, that I am better pursuing USO. It is possible that 2 barn conversions currently used as holiday lets in the hamlet could be registered as separate addresses thus increasing eligible properties to 6. If all 6 properties registered their interest in USO that would produce 6x £3400 towards the cost but unless 6 were also then used as the cost per property which would then be less than £5000 allowing any one to demand it, that would still leave a big bill (but admittedly £6800 less than before) as not all properties would, in reality, want to order the service even though all 6 had registered an interest.

I would have thought the liability for council tax that would come about as a result of registering as new properties would offset any advantage as far as additional USO income. You'd be better off claiming to be sole traders to get the business voucher value, you could all become consultants or something.

I fact Cerberus tell me that BT says FOD unavailable to us so that leaves USO only (or perhaps the Community Broadband scheme when it reopens although BT might well not be prepared to do this either). but thanks very much for your help.

In reply to a post by Munrobagger:

I fact Cerberus tell me that BT says FOD unavailable to us

Three possible reasons I can think of:
1. You are not in an FTTC cabinet area
2. You are not in an FoD-enabled exchange area
3. Your properties are not single dwelling units

If it's case 1, there is supposed to be a coverage expansion trial which started on 19th March - see here.

Cases 2 and 3 are still exclusions though.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Three possible reasons I can think of:
1. You are not in an FTTC cabinet area
2. You are not in an FoD-enabled exchange area
3. Your properties are not single dwelling units

Is there such a thing as 2, for anyone under category 1?**

FoD is available on any exchange that native GEA-FTTP is available. Openreach sell it nationally, which should mean so do BT Wholesale.
I don't think there's a single Head-End exchange that doesn't have some GEA-FTTP.

Any property connected to an FTTC enabled PCP should in theory have FoD available, MDU's excluded.
I've come across individual properties that are excluded from FoD but never heard of an exchange that isn't "FoD enabled"***

*** By that I obviously mean NGA/Head-End exchanges.
All FTTC/FTTP/FoD comes from larger Head-End exchanges.
There are smaller rural exchanges with no FTTC, therefore no FoD, but that's not the point I'm making.

Edited by j0hn83 (Sun 24-Apr-22 12:21:22)

In reply to a post by Munrobagger:

I fact Cerberus tell me that BT says FOD unavailable to us

That's probably as vague an answer as you could get.

Who's BT? BT don't sell FoD. Do they mean Openreach or BT Wholesale?

I would be asking why it isn't available.

There certainly are non-FoD exchanges:

Cabrach for example.

Pulling the text:

Address TELEPHONE EXCHANGE , LOWER CABRACH, HUNTLY AB54 4EL on Exchange CABRACH
ADSL Products Downstream Line Rate (Mbps) Upstream Line Rate (Mbps) Downstream Range(Mbps) Availability Date
WBC ADSL 2+ Up to 8 -- -- Available
WBC ADSL2+ Annex M Up to 8 Up to 0.75 -- Available
WBC Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available
Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available
Other Offerings Availability Date
ADSL Multicast Available
Exchange Product Restrictions Status
FTTP Priority Exchange N
WLR Withdrawal N
SOADSL Restriction Y

The exchange is not in a current fibre priority programme

WLR is currently available at the exchange

SOADSL is restricted at the exchange

FTTP is not available.

And not even FTTC! And there are more.

In reply to a post by MHC:

There certainly are non-FoD exchanges:

Cabrach for example.

That isn't a Head-End/Handover/NGA exchange.
There are obviously smaller, rural exchanges with no FTTC, therefore no FoD.

No FoD comes from a non NGA exchange
Like FTTP and FTTC, FoD only comes from a Head-End exchange.
Cabrach's parent exchange no doubt has some FTTC/FTTP.

FoD has 1 requirement for availability, that a line is connected to an FTTC enabled PCP.
It has a few exclusions for availability, including MDU's.

I didn't think it was necessary but I'll edit my post above to clarify that I mean Head-Ends (where the FoD actually comes from) and those who actually qualify for FoD (connected to an FTTC enabled cabinet).

That's interesting. We are single dwellings and the exchange has fibre BUT we are exchange only lines which I suspect is the issue as therefore not connected to a cabinet. Other houses in the nearby village have FTTC from the same exchange. So looks like we could try again later. The expansion has obviously not reached us yet.

In reply to a post by Munrobagger:

BUT we are exchange only lines which I suspect is the issue as therefore not connected to a cabinet.

That's the issue. Exchange only lines are (currently) excluded from ordering FoD.

Openreach were supposed to be expanding coverage beyond the FTTC cabinet footprint on 19th March 2022 but my understanding is that was delayed and/or cancelled.
They are now consulting on dropping the FoD product altogether.

I'm assuming FoD doesn't show as available on the BT Wholesale checker and you just took a chance with Cerberus?

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by candlerb:

2. You are not in an FoD-enabled exchange area

Is there such a thing?**

I wondered that too, but I simply repeated the wording directly from the article on ispreview.co.uk, section headed "FoD Coverage Expansion".

The official briefing unfortunately is password-protected (whereas the near-network trial isn't, oddly)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

** FoD requires a line be connected to an FTTC enabled cabinet.

Not for the purposes of the expanded coverage trial though.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Not for the purposes of the expanded coverage trial though.

The coverage expansion wasn't a trial but a permanent change.

My understanding is that the coverage changes that were due to be implemented on 19th March were to be cancelled, though that may not actually be the case.
I was told that back in late January/early February so may well have changed. They are now consulting on dropping FoD completely so who knows.

Has anyone any indication if they want ahead with the coverage expansion?

Edited by j0hn83 (Sun 24-Apr-22 12:29:31)

No it doesn't show on the Broadband Availability Checker as available but other numbers which are connected to the cabinet at the same exchange do show as available.

I hadn't realised that the advertised change from 22 March had been delayed or binned.

Things seem to be changing all the time but if we want fibre in the next 5 years I suspect that USO is the only way to go. We could bring down the quote still further by including another house down the road which i am pretty sure is on the same cluster as us but its speed is supposedly just over 10mbs. I actually doubt this very much but the occupant is elderly and has a phone line only and no broadband so it is difficult to check.

I now have a Universal service Obligation quotation for around £4300 which I am going ahead with.

My house is rural and 150m from the road.The fibre, according to the USO team will be laid to the boundary of my property and the ISP I choose is responsible for the onward connection to the house.

Questions if anyone can please help

1. Is this right? If so is this what actually happens in practice? Currently the copper cable finishes at a box immediately outside my house ie 150m from the road/lane and is in ducting from there. The copper then goes on to service other houses and will I assume have to remain in place for those who do not order fibre

2. If the fibre to my premises cannot use the ducting used for the current copper line I will need a 150m trench if Openreach really does stop at the lane. Can the ISP charge for this and any there any who don't or who have a fixed charge irrespective of what is involved.

Many thanks

Just as a wild-card - do you have line of sight to any properties in the village which have good FTTC available?
If so have you considered a point-to-point wireless link from there?
I have used point-to-point wireless link in the past, and while it has higher latency than FTTP, it is somewhat cheaper to install!
Of course you'd need to come to some arrangement with someone in the village to have FTTC installed there, but some of your £10k saving might help with that.

In reply to a post by Munrobagger:

I now have a Universal service Obligation quotation for around £4300 which I am going ahead with.

My house is rural and 150m from the road. The fibre, according to the USO team will be laid to the boundary of my property and the ISP I choose is responsible for the onward connection to the house.

Think of it another way, if they was to go the extra 150m then the quote would be higher than the £4300. Once the hard bit is done and you have it to your boundary you can speak with an ISP and if they want to add extra charges for extra ducting then you can consider doing or arranging the ducting yourself if the ISP costs are too high.

Edited by deleted (Tue 14-Jun-22 12:02:47)

How sure are you that your existing copper is in a duct? If it's direct buried then either you or a contractor will be digging a long trench unless you fancy paying ECCs on the final installation.

Many thanks, yes have that at present relay to point to poin micro broadband ISP but it relies on the goodwill of others and I cannot rely on it being there forever plus it is more expensive monthly and not as fast

Sure, point taken, but I was wondering if that is what happens in practice. The current copper connection is in a box immediately outside my house ie 100m from road and it runs on from there to 3 other properties. The service is advertised as fibre to the premises not fibre to site and the detailed USO service conditions "Premises" is defined as a Customer's residence or place of business.

Yes pretty sure is ducted. I pursuaded BT to put it there having dug the trench. This was around 20 years ago. I am hoping to avoid doing that again! and as i say in another post / reply "Premises" is defined as a customer's residence or place of business in the USO Service Conditons and directions.

Munrobagger

OR will provide it to the 'Kerbside CBT' (pole if overhead) when you order it from an ISP they will provide the final 'drop' to the house. If this is ducted they will use that, if not the ISP may have to agree ECCs which may be passed onto you.

If you are sure there is an existing (BT) duct it shouldn't cost you anything more. If it is direct buried you may like to obtain some duct and provide it yourself, plus a draw rope..

You should be able to find both the location of the CBT and what OR are calling the Property boundary from the USO team. The fibre from the CBT should be under 450m at max. ( not straight line distance)

My understanding is that the USO cost includes the drop to the premises but there haven't been many provided yet and the team planning them in your locality may not be used to thinking about the last drop yet. as that is only thought about for ordinary FTTP provides when an order is taken.

Thank you very helpful do you know where the fact that the last drop is supposed to be covered by the USO is written down?

Have to look through the USO documentation, But it is the cost to provide the service and without the last drop you have no service. Longest standard CBT to CSP is 450m so under that should be free.

You need to find out where OR are providing to on the boundary edge and where the CBT is. Fibre normally runs direct (one piece) from the CBT to the CSP so I do not know what they would terminate on at the property boundary if this is not the CBT..

I'd try and negotiate whatever you are paying for FTTP provision under the USO to include the fibre delivered to a CSP on your property. It sounds really messy to be enabling the closest chamber to you and leaving a substantial distance still to cover.

Worst case scenario is you pay the USO charge and then are hit with ECCs, slightly better is you enter into weeks of complaint handling within BT. If there's an opportunity to get this addressed now then that would be my preference.

My understanding of a USO order was that it was a service you were ordering - e.g. an FTTP product of whatever speed you picked, rather than a contract with Openreach, so I can't see how the order could even complete without ending up with a connection in your house.

Edited by jpm (Tue 14-Jun-22 17:02:41)

Just to update anyone looking at this thread. Openreach are following the route of the existing copper and planning to put the CSP on my property as jpm suggested. install should be H1 2023, so there is no issue about the new service stopping at the boundary of my property as suggested by the BT call centre.

Having been through the process (where they could not get away with simply offering us a 4G router due to no reception) key points for me were

1. Get as many eligible properties on the cluster (ie group of eligible properties) to register their interest. Mere registration of interest (not an actual order) produces a contribution of £3400 towards the total build cost and in our case brought the overall cost to below £5000 per eligible property that had had registered an interest. Less than £5000 entitles any one property to order FTTP and Openreach then have to build it even if only one property places an order. All figures are ex VAT.
2. All households or business premises in the cluster area are entitled to register an interest even if they have no current service or even if they are not on the Royal Mail. in my case this included self contained business rated holiday homes which were not on the Royal Mail data base. Have a google of UPRNs (Unique property identification numbers). Not every UPRN number will be a house or business but there may well be some that BT/Openreach have not written to or identified regarding USO which are eligible.