Hyperoptic "PIA"

Hyperoptic are currently provisioning their service in our building and my contact there said we're being connected to a near live building, rather than the exchange.

I always thought they used EAD, but going between sites suggested to me they are using PIA which I've heard they are starting to.

After questioning that, I was told:

We connect to live buildings as well as exchanges, it just depends on location and what is most efficient for the site. It is both PIA and EAD, as the PIA licence allows us to use Openreach’s duct network but it is still an EAD connection.

I'm not sure if those concepts are compatible, and having provided access to Openreach to bring fibre to the basement and spoken to the engineers it seems to be a standard EAD connection. They said it's a 1Gb Ethernet link and the A-end marries up in the exchange. They also provided a (standard?) ADVA FSP 150-GE102Pro which I wouldn't assume they do for physical infrastructure access only.

So I guess my questions are:

- Could Hyperoptic have a special license that gives them "PIA", but Openreach provide it through their existing EAD infrastructure?
- Why would Hyperoptic connect to another site if the fibre has to run to (through) the exchange anyway?
- As an aside, is a 1Gb link going to be sufficient for 40-50 units?
- For a customer-to-customer connection, is the fibre terminated and switched in the exchange or spliced through (i.e. could Hyperoptic change the link speed between the sties by substituting the Openreach terminating hardware)?

An ADVA FSP 150-GE102Pro is the standard method of terminating a 1Gb EAD bearer circuit from Openreach.

PIA is simply an infrastructure (duct and pole) sharing rental agreement.

If Hyperoptic already have a nearby building with an EAD service connecting that building to their core network - then PIA allows them to run their own physical dark fibre cable within Openreach ducts etc to reach that service (and their exiting equipment).

It could well be faster and/or more cost effective than running a new second dedicated EAD service to the new building, even if they upgraded the existing EAD bearer (for example to 10 Gbps with matching NTE)

Edited by Pheasant (Sun 15-May-22 11:06:16)

Openreach came and installed a "property of BT" labeled 12 fibre cable from a nearby node/footway box to Hyperoptic's rack (with the ADVA).

What does it suggest they've done in this case? Ordered a 1Gb EAD between sites with no PIA involved?

Sounds like a standard EAD install.

There would be no PIA involved for that particular EAD service as Openreach 'own' their own ducts etc. Hyperoptic would have simply ordered a new EAD service, which has been provisioned by Openreach. No PIA specifically needed there.

However Hyperoptic may still use PIA if they want to install their own physical fibre connectivity using said duct (and/or pole) infrastructure - nothing to do with the EAD service per se. As opposed to digging their own trenches, laying their own ducts, footway chambers etc etc.

Edited by Pheasant (Sun 15-May-22 11:35:12)

In certain locations it does seem as if Hyperoptic are trying to use PIA to move away from EAD to avoid the £2500/year/circuit charge for using it to aggregate FTTP. I've seen them pulling cables through Openreach ducts nearby to an apartment complex that they already serve - I imagine they were aggregating multiple 1Gb EAD services and the additional charges for aggregation would have been substantial.

In reply to a post by Cockroach:

- As an aside, is a 1Gb link going to be sufficient for 40-50 units?

As long as no-one orders the gigabit package it should be okay. As soon as that happens probably not if the expectation is full speed all the time.

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

As long as no-one orders the gigabit package it should be okay. As soon as that happens probably not if the expectation is full speed all the time.

I don't think anyone should expect full speed all the time on a consumer service, but I know of 4 flats which intend to upgrade to 1Gb. Hyperoptic said they constantly monitor capacity and upgrade it when consistently reaching 70%. Will have to see what that looks like in practice.

In reply to a post by Cockroach:

I don't think anyone should expect full speed all the time on a consumer service, but I know of 4 flats which intend to upgrade to 1Gb. Hyperoptic said they constantly monitor capacity and upgrade it when consistently reaching 70%. Will have to see what that looks like in practice.

This explains the occasional complaint regarding relatively slow speeds at peak times relatively soon after new buildings have been commissioned. This is especially problematic on upstream where it's way easier to fill your entire bandwidth all the time.

In reply to a post by jpm:

In certain locations it does seem as if Hyperoptic are trying to use PIA to move away from EAD to avoid the £2500/year/circuit charge for using it to aggregate FTTP. I've seen them pulling cables through Openreach ducts nearby to an apartment complex that they already serve - I imagine they were aggregating multiple 1Gb EAD services and the additional charges for aggregation would have been substantial.

Me too. Even without the charge for aggregating FTTP it makes far more sense to have a 10G feeding multiple buildings than a 1G or two from each, both from the point of view of cost and that of customer experience.

In reply to a post by jpm:

In certain locations it does seem as if Hyperoptic are trying to use PIA to move away from EAD to avoid the £2500/year/circuit charge for using it to aggregate FTTP. I've seen them pulling cables through Openreach ducts nearby to an apartment complex that they already serve - I imagine they were aggregating multiple 1Gb EAD services and the additional charges for aggregation would have been substantial.

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

Me too. Even without the charge for aggregating FTTP it makes far more sense to have a 10G feeding multiple buildings than a 1G or two from each, both from the point of view of cost and that of customer experience.

Just for the benefit of the OP as he may not be aware. Last year Openreach introduced (a not very popular with AltNets) surcharge where EAD circuits were being used for the AltNet to aggregate FTTP service.

Here is the ISPReview news article and the updated Openreach briefing.

If Hyperoptic were using PIA at this installation , then it wouldn’t be Openreach providing the cable or the NTE , the idea of PIA is that the Alt Net puts their own kit in OR infrastructure, if OR provided it, then it’s an ordinary installation .
This situation appears to be an ordinary EAD , A end in the exchange, but you can have an ordinary EAD , with the management end ( the A end ) in a non Openreach building, the building with the existing service can be both a B end for its primary connection to the ‘exchange’ and an A end for the circuit to the new building , the new building being the B end of that circuit that originates in the ‘first’ building.

FWIW , any new circuit that links two non OR buildings , doesn’t have a fibre that runs directly from the first building to the second building , the fibre at the second building goes back to an exchange and from the exchange to the first building , even when the two buildings are next door to each other and a short path exists between the two….if a fibre was provided by OR that went directly between the two buildings , and the ‘renter’ of that fibre stopped paying for it , the circuit would continue to work even though it wasn’t being paid for , OR would physically have to intervene in the external network to break down the circuit in these circumstances , running it through the exchange means in the event the circuit isn’t being ‘rented’ anymore , it can be broken down( ceased ) easily in the exchange .

Edited by Iniltous (Mon 16-May-22 20:40:26)

Yes I agree, think I noted in post 4, that’s it’s a standard EAD install with no PIA 😀

I've been with hyperoptic for nearly 10 years now - in my experience the gigabit package is rarely gigabit as the last mile fibre is often 1 gig, so you basically get 1gig - (sum of all usage in the apartments). So at 3am you'll probably get 1gig cos noone else is doing anything, otherwise at normal times its likely to be quite a bit slower (500meg or so).

This may have improved recently, I haven't bothered with the gigabit package for many years (still nothing really demands it and you get massively limited by peering/your wifi/hard drive speed etc).

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Just for the benefit of the OP as he may not be aware. Last year Openreach introduced (a not very popular with AltNets) surcharge where EAD circuits were being used for the AltNet to aggregate FTTP service.

Here is the ISPReview news article and the updated Openreach briefing.

Thanks. I had seen that, but what I understood from Guidance note 5 is that it doesn't apply when the EAD is only serving one building, even if it's broken down into MDUs (which I guess is probably the case for most of Hyperoptic's sites). Not that it's really my problem if they need to pay Openreach an extra £2,500 / year. Though, it would probably rule out the possibility of upgrading to 10Gb EAD for 40-50 properties if a £10,000 surcharge applies.