Virgin's FTTP

Is Virgin's FTTP real FTTP or just a heated up hybrid cable system?

I'm seeing them cable up streets previously without Virgin. The roadworks sites mention "superfast fibre to the home expansion" however in some streets they are deploying in Openreach ducts (including the distribution point so no street cabinet as far as I can see).

Last time I asked about Virgin bargepoles were mentioned so maybe it doesn't matter how it works - or not....

Interested none the less.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

Is Virgin's FTTP real FTTP or just a heated up hybrid cable system?

A bit of both as I understand it.

On the one hand, it's real FTTP in the sense that the fibre does run all the way to your home. Then there's a box on the wall which converts it to copper, which you could argue is no different from an ONT.

On the other hand, it's still running DOCSIS using radio-frequency-over-glass (RFoG). So it's just a bog standard cable TV system, modulated to go over fibres instead of coax, and converted back to coax at the very end.

Long term, this fibre infrastructure *could* be converted to XGS-PON or similar. But short to medium term, it's still a cable TV network with the same limitations.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

Is Virgin's FTTP real FTTP or just a heated up hybrid cable system?

Have a search through for RFoG (Radio Frequency over Glass). Virgin Media use this to cable up new properties and it converts the signal back to coax at the home, so that VM can still sell the same TV 6 and Hub 3 / 4 / 5 cable modem / router, as they want to supply national services that don't depend on the physical wiring in the ground.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

But short to medium term, it's still a cable TV network with the same limitations.

There should be one advantage over the regular coax cable network, which is that the coax network is pretty sensitive to noise. If you lurk the virgin community forums, or have had virgin over coax yourself, you'll know that keeping signal levels from the street cabs in check is a delicate balancing act of changing the "tap" at the cab and installing attenuators at the client end, being outside of spec means random disconnections and that can be variable to weather and atmospheric conditions! The RFoG setup should be immune to all of that and be lower maintenance to VMO2 and a better end-user experience.

The biggest disadvantage of getting Virgin Media via RFoG is that you are still lumped with their CPEs, which are by all accounts complete trash.

Removing RF interference in the local segment is useful, but there's no way around their support.

In reply to a post by jpm:

The biggest disadvantage of getting Virgin Media via RFoG is that you are still lumped with their CPEs, which are by all accounts complete trash.

I see this often, but as a former VM user I have to say the equipment isn't that awful. Yes, the later hubs (3 & 4) are missing some basic functionality like changing the router's address and subnet, but for most users they are alright, and you still have the option of running in modem only mode. Their support is also pretty good once you get past level 1, it's just that getting past level 1 involves posting to the forum and waiting a long time, the on-ground techs are decent. The bigger problems are at the network layer (latency) and the way they take the p*ss out of their userbase with twice-a-year above-inflation price increases. Still, at least those increases gave some users like myself an out to a much cheaper altnet FTTP provider!

In reply to a post by phoenixw:

The bigger problems are at the network layer (latency) and the way they take the p*ss out of their userbase with twice-a-year above-inflation price increases.

and in coax areas the 30+ year decaying hardware, which means despite the on-the-ground techs doing everything they can you still get disconnections in hot summer days. Still waiting for a true FTTP ISP to arrive. The Hub 3 on 200Mbps service is pretty good in modem mode, you can essentially ignore it

Edited by jchamier (Mon 04-Jul-22 17:35:53)

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

Is Virgin's FTTP real FTTP or just a heated up hybrid cable system?

FTTP comes in many flavours. Virgins FTTP is real FTTP in as much as it's Fibre To The Property.

Currently their FTTP is almost exclusively RFOG (radio frequency over glass) which is a DOCSIS signal over the fibre.
They are in the process of upgrading that to XGS-PON but I'm unaware if much (or any) of it is actually live.

It's no less FTTP than Openreach's GPON is though. Both are full fibre, with a set amount of available bandwidth shared between a set amount of users.
That amount of bandwidth is the limiting factor, the exact same as with GPON.
It can be argued that GPON is better than RFOG but they are both very much FTTP. Just as you can argue that GPON isn't as good as point to point fibre.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

Is Virgin's FTTP real FTTP or just a heated up hybrid cable system?

I'm seeing them cable up streets previously without Virgin. The roadworks sites mention "superfast fibre to the home expansion" however in some streets they are deploying in Openreach ducts (including the distribution point so no street cabinet as far as I can see).

Last time I asked about Virgin bargepoles were mentioned so maybe it doesn't matter how it works - or not....

Interested none the less.

Their long term game plan is to move to XGS-PON, but it’s only been trialled in a very limited fashion.

Project Lighting is all RFoG which although is technically fibre into the home (or actually outside wall) - there is still coax into the NTE/cable modem - isn’t really comparable to PON or point-to-point FTTP deployments because it is still architected on a TV distribution historic approach to carrying data traffic - ie. DOCSIS - rather than native data - ie xPON or Ethernet.

At some point VM02 will transition from RFOG to XGS-PON - quite possibly running both simultaneously on the local segment.

Edited by Pheasant (Mon 04-Jul-22 22:09:46)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

But short to medium term, it's still a cable TV network with the same limitations.

I had a scan of Wikipedia for DOCIS and first impressions were it is capable of faster symmetric connections than Virgin offer.

But no matter, I'm sticking to my slow FTTC, no chance of taking VIrgin. Not so much the dangers warned of here (of which I already heeded when getting a new service at the office.) I need a fixed IP and a decent upload. As far as I can see their business service gets me a fixed IP but its only ever a 60 MB upload, even on the gigabit connection. That's £60 + VAT which is not really competitive nowadays. Unless you have no choice. I don't. But I choose not to!

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

At some point VM02 will transition from RFOG to XGS-PON - quite possibly running both simultaneously on the local segment.

There's some info about their FTTP trial here:
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2022/05/virgin...
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/12/virgin...

Even then it's unclear whether they used XGS-PON in the trial, and if so, what equipment they used at the customer side (do they have an IPTV solution waiting in the wings?)

All it really says is that they plan to upgrade to a full-fibre network which is 10G XGS-PON "capable". Any strand of single mode fibre is XGS-PON capable, but you still need to deploy new equipment at the customer side and the cabinet side.

Edited by candlerb (Tue 05-Jul-22 09:56:11)

I can’t get your second link to open on my phone, but the following ISPR story from December 2021 makes it pretty clear it’s XGS-PON. Not that it’s any great shakes these days…XGS is pretty much de rigeur for any aspiring altnet…25G or 50 GPON now that would be a more impressive claim to fame 🤣

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/12/virgin...

Yeah I agree, is it only shocking to me that CityFibre aren't deploying XGS-PON yet on a large scale?

https://cityfibre.com/about-us/our-network

"Plans to upgrade this to XGS-PON are already underway as part of our continuous Full Fibre Network evolution."

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I can’t get your second link to open on my phone

Copy-paste error: fixed now.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

but the following ISPR story from December 2021 makes it pretty clear it’s XGS-PON

I don't think so. "VMO2 have a plan to upgrade those HFC areas to symmetric speed FTTP broadband by the end of 2028" is not the same as "VMO2 are actively deploying XGS-PON right now"

So far, the only thing I *know* they're deploying is RFoG (if anyone has seen a VM XGS-PON deployment, please correct me).

The question then is: when they upgrade existing HFC deployments to fibre, will they go RFoG there too, or will they go straight to XGS-PON? And in the latter case, why aren't they using XGS-PON for the green-field fibre areas? Otherwise they're going to have to do a separate RFoG to XGS-PON upgrade there too.

Same article:

“ Last month we reported that Virgin Media (VMO2) had begun trials in three cities to test their UK plan for upgrading existing Hybrid Fibre Coax (HFC) based network areas with Fibre-to-the-Premises (FTTP) broadband – using XGS-PON technology (here). The good news is that we now know the names of those three locations.”

So the trial is XGS-PON in Wakefield, Stoke and Salisbury across some 50K premises.

Further down;

“ VMO2’s former Director of Infrastructure Engineering & Delivery, Mathew Tully, has just been named Director of Mustang FTTH at the same operator, which he confirms is the official project name for the operator’s FTTP upgrade programme: “Mustang is Virgin Media O2s full fibre rollout of its existing 14 million homes by the end of 2028 … It’s a significant challenge, and I will be building a team to deliver throughout 2022, ahead of completing the programme in 2028.””

So Project Mustang is the strategic change programme, to move off HFC/DOCSIS in its entirety, and based on XGS-PON tech.

Project Lightning (running since 2017) is a parallel programme delivering existing DOCSIS service using RFoG. It’s an evolution rather than revolution. Tactical is perhaps a better way of describing it.

There will be transition and crossover between Lightning and Mustang, but where and how, that isn’t covered in any of those articles.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

So the trial is XGS-PON in Wakefield, Stoke and Salisbury across some 50K premises.

I did wonder why we got all new Virgin streetcabs around this area of Stoke, most are mini cabs (~50cm wide, green or grey) similar to the green LilaConnect/VXFIBER cabs for their active optical network, with special streets getting larger grey and yellow cabs. I imagine having a rapidly growing active optical network on their turf taking their customers spurred them into action!

Yep. The cabinets are mostly POP-A inverted nodes. VMO2 did the maths and noted that the cost difference between building the next cable standard, DoCSIS 4, and going to XGSPON wasn't very big.

The parent company are doing some of this in other countries too but to a lesser extent, not all the country, due to the network construction there.

In reply to a post by phoenixw:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

So the trial is XGS-PON in Wakefield, Stoke and Salisbury across some 50K premises.

I did wonder why we got all new Virgin streetcabs around this area of Stoke, most are mini cabs (~50cm wide, green or grey)

So I'm not in any of those cities but I think (didn't look closely) I've seen a couple of new small Virgin cabinets. The area they are in has existing Virgin cables. But other streets they are in are virgin Virgin areas. (I'll get me coat.)

How could I tell if they're installing PON or DOCSIS?

FWIW (or did I already say?) Virgin are using Openreach ducts (PIA) and also putting their splitters (or whatever they are) in the OR pavement holes. So they're not putting Virgin cabinets in all streets.

I'm on the VM 1Gbps FTTP. It was installed in an area where the previous cable company were unable to get their infrastructure build started in time and was delaying the build of a housing estate. This was 1996~1998.

Roll on to 2022, out of the blue or the fright of BT & City FTTP being installed, VM managed to build a FTTP network on the estate where i live. I had contacted them in 2010, 2015, 2020 ish as part of the "cable my Street" project and they did come out but each time said it was not cost effective to build.

2022 they used Openreach PIA to install the fibres.

Well, i signed up and 3~4 months ago it went live. I moved from a sky fttc connection, which i must admit was very stable.

I have had more brief outages in the past few months than i did with several years of fttc and also 3 years of Relish 4g.

Speed wise, i put the VM Superhub 4 into modem mode as the speedtests were saying i was getting about 300Mbps over wifi and also on the LAN.

I bought a TP Link Archer AX6000 which i now get about 600Mbps on wifi and Lan.

Speeds using the built in samknows tester on the superhub says i am getting 1.1Gbps speeds.
Using the build in tester on the Archer AX6000 says i am getting 600Mbps.

Who knows? The good points Its currently cheap. An 18 month contract which is £36 for the 1Gb connection as long as i took out a SIM with o2 for £10 & 10GB data. I upgraded to 100GB data, so the whole lot for £50.

Will be gong to Cityfibre when their network is installed and my contact expires.

my iphone 13 gets a max of 600Mbps speedtests. I get over 900Mbps using 5G in some areas.

Would be good to see a decent speedtest result on my phone or Lan. Maybe one day.
Also a bit [censored] that they say ou will get a 1.1Gbps connection but supply a 1GB Ethernet port.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

In reply to a post by phoenixw:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

So the trial is XGS-PON in Wakefield, Stoke and Salisbury across some 50K premises.

I did wonder why we got all new Virgin streetcabs around this area of Stoke, most are mini cabs (~50cm wide, green or grey)

So I'm not in any of those cities but I think (didn't look closely) I've seen a couple of new small Virgin cabinets. The area they are in has existing Virgin cables. But other streets they are in are virgin Virgin areas. (I'll get me coat.)

How could I tell if they're installing PON or DOCSIS?

FWIW (or did I already say?) Virgin are using Openreach ducts (PIA) and also putting their splitters (or whatever they are) in the OR pavement holes. So they're not putting Virgin cabinets in all streets.

wish they would hurry up and start dishing out hub 5s with the 2.5GbE port but in the mean time i just Balance RR the hub 4 in modem mode with OPNSense, sometimes have to wonder if the extra electric cost is worth the extra speed mind lol

https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/e0f37a45-0a69-416...

In reply to a post by acpsd775:

wish they would hurry up and start dishing out hub 5s with the 2.5GbE port but in the mean time i just Balance RR the hub 4 in modem mode with OPNSense, sometimes have to wonder if the extra electric cost is worth the extra speed mind lol

https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/e0f37a45-0a69-416...

Once you get the new Hub 4 firmware that'll put an end to using a LAG as you are. Make the most of it while you can.

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

In reply to a post by acpsd775:

wish they would hurry up and start dishing out hub 5s with the 2.5GbE port but in the mean time i just Balance RR the hub 4 in modem mode with OPNSense, sometimes have to wonder if the extra electric cost is worth the extra speed mind lol

https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/e0f37a45-0a69-416...

Once you get the new Hub 4 firmware that'll put an end to using a LAG as you are. Make the most of it while you can.

well that sounds about right for VM supply you with something that's not fit for the job and then remove a work around weather official or not thats bee working at least for me well over a year, then just tell you well you can get all your speed if you use the hub in router mode, yet most people on that package would be customers wanting modem mode.

any idea where to see what firmware version im currently on cant seem to find anything obvious to see which version im on now im sure it used to show it under General Configuration

Edited by acpsd775 (Fri 15-Jul-22 19:23:22)

Is there a guide showing how to enable this ?
edit - just found this:-
https://tech.msh100.uk/virgin/networking/2020/10/17/...

Edited by Mitchy_mitch (Sun 24-Jul-22 12:49:15)

that's what i saw when they first posted it, but i do it via OPNSense, H4 in modem mode 2 cables from hub to my OPNSense box in a balance RR interface (2x intel Gbit ports) then my LAN is a intel 10Gbe port into a switch, when i first set it up i used PFsense and a intel 2.5Gbe card as at the time OPNsense didn't have support for the 2.5Gbe card.

Striping traffic across 2 VM hub ports...from the same good chap that brought you Better Internet Dashboard

https://bidb.uk