ONT question

If you plug a laptop directly into an ONT, would you be connected to the internet?

Is this a trick question....?

Yes - presuming there was an active ISP service and if your ISP was using say PPPoE you had the necessary PPPoE client running on the laptop to authenticate yourself.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

If you plug a laptop directly into an ONT, would you be connected to the internet?

To expand Pheasant's answer slightly: you *could* get connected to the Internet that way, but it it will probably not happen automatically. Depending on your ISP, there may be manual configuration required to configure your laptop's ethernet port in the same way as the WAN port on the ISP's router.

* The connection may use either IP/DHCP or PPPoE. If it's IP/DHCP and you're lucky, simply plugging it may "just work". However even then, some ISPs also require some special DHCP options to be set. For those which use PPPoE, you'll need to enable a PPPoE client, and you'll need to know the correct username/password to use.

* In addition to this, the connection may or may not require VLAN tagging. If it does, you have to configure a subinterface with the correct tag. (And some ISPs use "vlan 0" - i.e. priority bits only - which not all clients support)

In short: plugging in a laptop to the ONT and *not* getting connected to the Internet, does not prove that there's a problem. More likely you have just not configured the laptop correctly.

If you can specify which ISP you're using, other people can probably give you the correct configuration for that ISP.

Trick question: NO
Active ISP: Yes
PPPoE: Yes
What would you suggest as an PPPoE client?

The reason I asked is because I suspect that the ISP supplied router is faulty and in the absence of another router, I wanted to check thee was actually a service on the fibre. The ONT has all green lights.

The service was only installed yesterday; initially the PON light was on but following extra work by Openreach skillset externally, it went out.

Now when you plug in the router it shows there is no internet suggesting the right logon credentials have not be entered. Re-entered them but no joy.

The other odd thing about the router is that when hardwiring my laptop into the router, the taskbar icon remains as a globe but ipconfig reports I have a DCHP address and i can at least logon to the router where it states I have no internet connection.

Have checked out the ethernet link cable between the ONT and the WAN port and that looks fine to me.

Router is ZYXEL VNG8623-TSOB V5.50 (ABPM.5)C0

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/al...

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Trick question: NO
Active ISP: Yes

I think that's "Maybe" at this stage, as there may be a provisioning fault. Anyway, which ISP?

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

PPPoE: Yes
What would you suggest as an PPPoE client?

Windows, macOS both have built-in PPPoE clients. Linux almost certainly too (I don't have a Linux desktop to hand to test with)

Testing this way does give you some additional clues. Using Wireshark or tcpdump on the ethernet link, you can see whether your PPPoE discover (PADI) packets are being sent, and whether any responses are coming back (PADO). Nice overview here. Then if PPPoE is established, you'll be able to see if the PPP session itself establishes, and if not, what the problem is (e.g. bad username/password).

However, unless you've successfully configured this to work with the specific ISP previously - including the correct VLAN tagging if required - then *not* getting a PADO response doesn't necessarily mean a problem with the ISP.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Router is ZYXEL VNG8623-TSOB V5.50 (ABPM.5)C0

Is this an ISP-supplied and pre-configured router, or one that you have provided yourself?

If it's supplied and pre-configured, then another approach is to put a managed switch between the router WAN port and the ONT, and configure a mirror port on the switch to send a copy of all WAN->ONT and ONT->WAN packets. Then you stick a laptop running wireshark or tcpdump on that port, so you can see the packets being sent and received.

However, in this situation, the fact that the link doesn't come up by itself is good enough to raise as a fault to the ISP. You may have a green light, but either Openreach or the ISP may not have correctly configured the traffic path.

That reads like a provisioning issue / incomplete install.

You're best off in the first instance following up with the ISP on Monday if the router does not come online by then.

Testing using a laptop/own PPPoE client is all very well, but you may be wasting your time if its not fully provisioned...end up chasing your tail over something out of your control.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Trick question: NO
Active ISP: Yes

I think that's "Maybe" at this stage, as there may be a provisioning fault. Anyway, which ISP?

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

PPPoE: Yes
What would you suggest as an PPPoE client?

Windows, macOS both have built-in PPPoE clients. Linux almost certainly too (I don't have a Linux desktop to hand to test with)

Testing this way does give you some additional clues. Using Wireshark or tcpdump on the ethernet link, you can see whether your PPPoE discover (PADI) packets are being sent, and whether any responses are coming back (PADO). Nice overview here. Then if PPPoE is established, you'll be able to see if the PPP session itself establishes, and if not, what the problem is (e.g. bad username/password).

However, unless you've successfully configured this to work with the specific ISP previously - including the correct VLAN tagging if required - then *not* getting a PADO response doesn't necessarily mean a problem with the ISP.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Router is ZYXEL VNG8623-TSOB V5.50 (ABPM.5)C0

Is this an ISP-supplied and pre-configured router, or one that you have provided yourself?

If it's supplied and pre-configured, then another approach is to put a managed switch between the router WAN port and the ONT, and configure a mirror port on the switch to send a copy of all WAN->ONT and ONT->WAN packets. Then you stick a laptop running wireshark or tcpdump on that port, so you can see the packets being sent and received.

However, in this situation, the fact that the link doesn't come up by itself is good enough to raise as a fault to the ISP. You may have a green light, but either Openreach or the ISP may not have correctly configured the traffic path.

To answer the questions posed here:
ISP: Cloudscape Connect
Source of router: Supplied by ISP preconfigured BUT ....
Logging onto the router, it is necessary to change the default password (Which I did and did a screenshot with the new password shown). Router reboots but doesn't allow me to log back in with either the new or old password, So had to reset the router back to factory defaults, Great back into the router with the same steps taken. This time new password OK. Went to supply the ISP logon credentials only to find they were already present and correct.

You said "You may have a green light, but either Openreach or the ISP may not have correctly configured the traffic path" - I concur, and it seems that a dialog between Cloudscape and Openreach is currently under way, I think I will take a back while they do their magic.

This thread is an example of asking the question you're *actually* trying to get an answer for, rather than asking around the problem.

The thing that goes through my mine is, if there was an issue and the engineers had to do some work on in the splitter node to get it to work has your CBT port be wrongly connected to a different splitter (if there was more than one in the splitter node).

If I'm barking up the wrong tree please don't shoot me down.

Email cloudscape support now, sometimes they answer on a weekend/out of hours even though they list support as being office hours only. Was with them for 3 years and found them excellent.

In reply to a post by dect:

The thing that goes through my mine is, if there was an issue and the engineers had to do some work on in the splitter node to get it to work has your CBT port be wrongly connected to a different splitter (if there was more than one in the splitter node).

I don't think you'd get solid green unless the ONT has successfully registered to the OLT.

This implies the problem is somewhere backwards from the OLT: cablelink, backhaul, ISP session termination etc.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I don't think you'd get solid green unless the ONT has successfully registered to the OLT.

This implies the problem is somewhere backwards from the OLT: cablelink, backhaul, ISP session termination etc.

You make a good point, it was just strange that the OP originally had a problem that required remediation by Openreach engineers on installation day and also an issue between the OLT and the ISP. How unlucky can you be?

Edit: Thinking about it don't the Openreach engineers as part of closing the job down force a remote test of the service from OLT to ONT so another nail in my suggestion.

Edited by deleted (Sat 16-Jul-22 18:55:16)

You said "You may have a green light, but either Openreach or the ISP may not have correctly configured the traffic path" - I concur, and it seems that a dialog between Cloudscape and Openreach is currently under way, I think I will take a back while they do their magic.

Good plan. If the ONT is correctly registered onto the PON that really is as much as the Openreach engineer can /could do for you on install day.

As noted by @candlerb full end-to-end connectivity requires your ISP to correctly configure their "pipe" which runs over the Openreach "pipe" - this may require additional work between them and Openreach or indeed just on their own systems.

Sometimes its all ready to go and as soon as the ONT connection is up, everything comes up ready. Sometime not and a bit more of a wait can be expected.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

You said "You may have a green light, but either Openreach or the ISP may not have correctly configured the traffic path" - I concur, and it seems that a dialog between Cloudscape and Openreach is currently under way, I think I will take a back while they do their magic.

Good plan. If the ONT is correctly registered onto the PON that really is as much as the Openreach engineer can /could do for you on install day.

As noted by @candlerb full end-to-end connectivity requires your ISP to correctly configure their "pipe" which runs over the Openreach "pipe" - this may require additional work between them and Openreach or indeed just on their own systems.

Sometimes its all ready to go and as soon as the ONT connection is up, everything comes up ready. Sometime not and a bit more of a wait can be expected.

Just for the record Openreach have responded by saying:
The order was routed to the wrong CBT and also had an incorrect address.
The correct address updated of xxxxx to the correct NAD and CBT along with the ONT SN that was fitted.

The supplied ISP pre-configured router had credentials set for different customer!

How unlucky can one person get?

Openreach have requested the ISP to place a new order. That's been done but I don't think the issue will be sorted in a matter of days.

The original order was placed nine months ago and has had 13 abortive visits to get the service in. What we found is that you could not order FTTP unless you had a copper based line installed first to be able to quote the landline number for the FTTP order.. Over this period, Openreach did supply a fish tank and tubing to be installed on our own land. As it was a new build they insisted that that the name of the property was registered with the local council which in turn created a new postcode.

Just this last hurdle (I hope) to jump over. This is a very rural location so very fortunate to be getting FTTP.

Whoa what a saga! Did I read that right - 13 abortive visits from order placement - what went wrong on all those visits!?

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Openreach did supply a fish tank and tubing

Interesting choice of words.

Gallows humour perhaps?! 😎

I presume he meant a quadbox chamber of sorts and some lengths of 54/56 duct conduit

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I presume he meant a quadbox chamber of sorts and some lengths of 54/56 duct conduit

I thought the same, mine are often full of water but never seen any fish in them yet

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Whoa what a saga! Did I read that right - 13 abortive visits from order placement - what went wrong on all those visits!?

Yes that is right.

The property is a new build at the end of a private road. At the start of the construction, a caravan for the the foreman to supervise the works from, was brought onto site. It had a telephone installed requiring two new chambers for an underground service along the side of the road, From the end chamber, the cable was directly buried to feed into the caravan. As you enter the gated private road, on the public highway, there is a telephone pole. From there 13 properties get there service by underground ductwork into each property.

About two years ago, 74 properties were included in a Demand Led Community Fibre Partnership where each had to pledge to have a FTTP service once it was installed and all got a voucher from DCMS valued at either £1500 or £3500 - this included the Caravan. As the build progressed, there was no longer a need for the caravan and it was removed with the telephone line being ceased. The end of the cable would have get covered over by the foundations to the new build.

Eventually all properties in the scheme were advised that they could order a FTTP service from their chosen ISP but when we went to order the service, the newly named property on the site was not showing FTTP as being available, but it could be installed to the non-existent caravan.

Ridiculously, to be able to order FTTP, you must have a working copper based phone service. Duly order and the first of many Openreach engineers turned up expecting to liven up the end of the directly buried cable that formerly served the caravan but by then this was an impossible task with the end of the cable under the house foundations,

It was obvious to us that to get a phone service, there was a need to extended the service from the final chamber on the side of the road into the new build. Many Openreach engineers turned up expecting to find a pole to install an overhead connection into the property. Why they thought that, I have no idea. Meanwhile and unfortunately, heavy machinery went over the chamber causing extensive damaged making it entirely unusable.

All previous visits were by Kelly's but on the 8th visit, it was actually an Openreach engineer who turned up. They saw what the problem was and said it was up to us to repair the damage if we wanted to avoid hefty charges from Openreach. They would however provide a new plastic chamber and sufficient underground ducting to reach the new build, Offer accepted and the items turned up as visit number 9. Carried out the necessary ground works. Visit 10 saw Kelly's turn up again, but they didn't have enough multicore cable to do the job. Visit 11 and at last we had a copper based phone service.

Tried to order FTTP but the new house name continued to show that FTTP was not available for the new build, only to the non-existent caravan. Openreach said to the ISP to place an order against the availability shown for the caravan. Eventually Openreach turned up to do the job (visit #12) but the newly fitted ONT displayed a red LOS. They returned the following day (visit #13) and the LOS lamp was extinguished. However the router indicated no internet service.

Openreach then stated that a new order had to be placed against the name of the new property. There won't be a visit #14 because all necessary tasks will be carried out remotely and they are committed to do the job on the 21st July. Locally it will be necessary to change the logon credentials for the broadband service within the router. So it's looking good for a go live date tomorrow. Well let's hope so.

I claim the prize for the most number of visits to get a service up and running but I guess ny story can be topped by others.

Edited by trolleybus (Wed 20-Jul-22 19:38:26)

With pure 20/20 hindsight, it sounds like a lot of aggro could have been avoided if at the time the initial chambers were installed to serve copper to the construction caravan a proper underground connection should have been made all the way to the new dwelling. This may have also avoided the caravan being listed on the demand led FTTP proposal docs, rather than the permanent dwelling, which no doubt confused matters when it came time for the “real” FTTP connection to be ordered.

The last hurdles for incorrect circuit to PON allocation for the service and incorrect ISP logon cred’s were I suppose needless hassle, but they happen from time to time.

Oh well I guess you’re almost there now. Good luck for the next 24 hours!!

I always recommend to self builders that even if they have a caravan on site at the initial stage of development they refer to it with the same name that the new property will be called as this prevents the issues you have had.

Edited by deleted (Wed 20-Jul-22 22:27:16)

In reply to a post by dect:

I always recommend to self builders that even if they have a caravan on site at the initial stage of development they refer to it with the same name that the new property will be called as this prevents the issues you have had.

Naming a new build property is not a case of selecting something to your liking and starting to use it immediately. There are various registration processes to go through which can, and do, take an inordinate amount of time bearing in mind what you would like is often rejected by the local council. You then have to think of another name you would like to use and go through the loop again; and often it is not before the sixth suggestion put forward that it is accepted.;

Then getting even a temporarily line installed is a difficult enough process if the property, or whatever, is not listed in the PAF database. When you want to crack on with the build and have an old caravan converted into a site office to oversee matters, you can't afford to wait while due processes of the new name of the property goes through the system.

There were unusual circumstances for us as simultaneously the site/caravan was earmarked to have Ultra-Fast Broadband included in a scheme which opened up the can of worms that we experienced. Normally the new line gets shifted into the new build with no issues.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Naming a new build property is not a case of selecting something to your liking and starting to use it immediately. There are various registration processes to go through which can, and do, take an inordinate amount of time bearing in mind what you would like is often rejected by the local council. You then have to think of another name you would like to use and go through the loop again; and often it is not before the sixth suggestion put forward that it is accepted.

Fully aware of the process, personally I've never had the issue and I've done it several times now, maybe the difference between us is we prepare differently.