Expecting new FTTP, how much CBT capacity is deployed?

Hi all, new to this forum and have found much useful information, hoping you can all help me with a query.

I currently have a good FTTC service with BT - I'm only about 100m from the cabinet, and speedtests generally show around 70/18 Mbps. But, I'd always like better, and it looks as though FTTP might be coming our way soon.

I met some Openreach employees in the lane to the rear of our flats a few weeks back who told me they were looking for the best place to install new telegraph poles, which they thought would be for fibre distribution. I now see that OR has roadworks planned in the lane for the end of October for "2X POLE PROVIDES on C/way" (from Roadworks Scotland website).

My question is regarding how much fibre capacity they are likely to install. My understanding from reading the various guides and posts on this forum is that they will put a CBT at the top of each pole, and this typically has 12 connectors, each supporting a single end-user. However, these poles will be servicing just over 100 flats, so that would lead to capacity constraints pretty much instantly.

Is it possible that they will put multiple CBTs on each pole? Or can the fibre from the pole CBT be split again at a distribution point closer to the individual flats?

For background, I live in a tenement flat in Glasgow. The block I am in is 4 storeys, and split into about 7 "closes" (as we call them around here) - each close is a door to a shared stairwell that has 2 flats on each floor. So, 7 closes each with 8 flats, for 56 flats per block - and the lane where the poles are being placed runs between two such blocks, so ~112 flats in total.

The existing copper connection runs from a duct at one end of the lane and then snakes along the back of the block connecting to multiple 'black boxes' (which I presume are some sort of copper distribution points), roughly one per close, from which telephone cables then run to individual flats. I am wondering if there may be additional similar fibre distribution points on the back of the block splitting the fibre again for each close?

If there isn't some way of getting many more fibres from these two poles then I'll need to make sure I get my FTTP order in super quickly once it goes live!

Thanks in advance for any insights.

Openreach will plan capacity for one CBT port per customer premise (UPRN). In the case of large blocks of flats this could mean one or more CBTs per block, which could be mounted on the outside of the block or inside, depending on what's negotiated with the owner. This is all decided by the network planners.

OR's strategy is eventually to retire the whole copper network, so they *have* to install sufficient capacity to cover all existing copper services being migrated to fibre. So don't worry about having to be the first to order.

At the other end of the spectrum of possibilities: if the landlord refuses permission or doesn't answer requests, you may get missed out of the current FTTP rollout completely. You'll just have to wait and see!

potterer

Some blocks of flats are being served by Poles to run the fibre to a CBT on the block. then into the flats. This would then indicate 1 8 port CBT per 'close'

If this doesn't occur with your site you are correct there will be a problem. A single pole will be unable to cope with 56 Fibre drops even if they are spread over both blocks to even out the strain in one direction. It is possible to provide 5 12 port CBTs on a pole and this is likely to be done 1 at a time to fulfill demand but the strain from the drops is very likely to cause a problem if fully used.

It looks like a planning issue in that a planner has thought of the first stage of rollout but not ensured that the design can cope with a full rollout!

Witchunt may like to comment if he sees this thread.

Have Openreach started rolling out their new CommScope made Novux HST range of CBTs? these new CBTs are not limited to a single fibre per port as the Corning ones are.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

At the other end of the spectrum of possibilities: if the landlord refuses permission or doesn't answer requests, you may get missed out of the current FTTP rollout completely. You'll just have to wait and see!

It's a Scottish tenement so there's no landlord. Flats aren't on a leasehold as in England. Each flat owner owns the building along with the other owners. If the OP isn't an owner but is renting and even if the actual owner doesn't respond there will be enough other owners voting to see FTTP installed. Its all in the missives!

Thanks for all the replies. It sounds like the two poles will be a limitation unless there's scope for further fibre splitting, possibly mounted on the building's external wall?

I've also just found out that Cityfibre are building out in our area in the same time frame - there are some paint marks at all the front doors in the street, and they have roadworks scheduled from October through January.

Seems like FTTP is like buses - you wait years and then two come along at once. Looks like we could soon have Cityfibre in the front and Openreach in the rear, as it were.

And @Woolwich has it right - no leaseholders here, it would just need a majority in each close to get permission for any works on the building fabric.

Thanks again, and I will update when works start.

A 3 way bracket mounted to the pole can take 3 x 12 port CBTs. But wall mounted CBTs would possibly be a more suitable solution and save a lot of time later on.

Edited by witchunt (Thu 29-Sep-22 21:06:03)

In reply to a post by witchunt:

A 3 way bracket mounted to the pole can take 3 x 12 port CBTs. But wall mounted CBTs would possibly be a more suitable solution and save a lot of time later on.

But 36 separate cables, if they all pull in roughly the same direction, would be a high pole load. Hence my suspicion that the CBTs will go elsewhere.

They may be using the pole just to bring a fibre uplink. They could even give each block its own splitter node, in which case one 4-strand fibre cable could serve 128 properties.

I guess you'll just have to wait and see what the planners have designed.

If you see some of the fibre builds, with multiple PIA networks all mounting their own equipment on the same poles you can see pole loading is going to be an issue. In this case external mounted CBTs maybe better option as it removes the whole issue of loading and pole top capacity.

Edited by witchunt (Fri 30-Sep-22 18:18:16)

Sounds like the best solution would be one 8-way CBT per close, mounted on the rear wall. That would need ~7 fibre runs from each pole.

Is there any info on how many fibres run to each pole, and what the "fan-out" can be?

potterer

7 Fibre runs from a pole would be no problem even n if they are all in one 120 degree spread..

In reply to a post by kitcat:

It looks like a planning issue in that a planner has thought of the first stage of rollout but not ensured that the design can cope with a full rollout!

Witchunt may like to comment if he sees this thread.

Are all the Openreach planners based off-shore (India)?

Is there a local team that does any review / audit / checking or does it simply go out to build for expediency, before any issues like this are discovered?

Pheasant.

Not in a position to say on where the teams are based, but I believe some teams are based in this country. Whichunt may have more up to date info on location. Surveyors should have picked up the potential when they looked at the pole locations..

Until the CBTs are put up we do not know what has been planned and are making assumptions of worst case, ( one CBT on each pole) it may all be planned for 100% coverage with the CBTs going on each close and the Poles just for the fibre access. Both designs are possible from the info we have been given by the OP.

Thanks kitcat

Potterer

We are also in the middle of a rollout and the planning appears good for 100% take-up.

I have just had a look at the blocks of flats, each now has a CBT attached to the wall about 3m up with enough ports to cater for each flat. Most of the Pole fed houses have enough CBT capacity to cater for 100% of the existing drops.

I am keeping an eye on the exception which is an overloaded pole with 48 plus drops to houses and flats connected to it. (Some will be obsolete). Last week the old ceramic isolators were removed leaving a birds nest of wires. The flats have already been catered for as above allowing fr the future removal of three of the multi pair cables.

Talking to the group of OR workers and contactors gathered around the base they are going to try to place 3 CBTs if they can find room when up there. and are hoping that the number of workers is below 36! (The area has Virgin already) The OR engineers said the limit is meant to be 30 drops but there are so many they couldn't count from ground level! always losing count at somewhere over 40! . They were also wanting to connect 2 fibre cables in addition for the two CBTs they had just installed on a subsidiary pole and were worried about adding extra strain on the pole.

I am waiting with interest to see what the final solution they come up with is.

Have to wait for another day, they got the fibre cables up but there is not enough room for the CBTs so they are going back to the planners..

Edited by kitcat (Tue 04-Oct-22 13:35:15)

Thanks kitcat, that's very interesting. Roadworks for the poles are scheduled for 21-24 October (which I've just realised is over a weekend) so I'll update this thread after that.

I don't know if that first piece of work will literally just be installing poles (there are no poles at the moment), or if they will run fibre to poles at the same time. I will try and have a chat with the OR workers and see if they have any further info on deployment plans.

potteerer

Most likely just the poles, it will be a different team to run the fibre. Quite likely a team to put duct to the poles first, then the CBTs will be fitted with fibre tails, and at some point fibre put in the ducts back to an aggregation/splitter node. Then they will splice all the bits together.

So likely at least 4 teams with likely more than 5 visits. Plus quality checks.

Potterer

They have now been back and managed to fit two 12 port CBTs so must be hoping that 24 is enough with the offloads they have done for the flats. I think this will be OK as quite a few of the drops are multiple to the same single dwelling. (We have two as does the neighbour even though we now both only use one). Waiting for spicing to be done now.

So, an update. In short, we seem to have fallen at the first hurdle.

I arrived back from a trip to Ireland at the weekend, expecting to see the new poles - but nothing. After a few chance discussions with neighbours, it transpires that Openreach engineers were indeed in the lane on Friday, with a hole dug and ready to erect the first pole, when they were interrupted by a neighbour. She pointed out that the hole they had dug was in the garden belonging to her close (shared by 8 flats), and no-one had given permission for the pole to be erected. Apparently the OR team were very polite, said there had clearly been a mistake by the survey team in neglecting to establish ownership, filled in the hole and left.

I'm keen to get this moving again as quickly as possible. Assuming I can persuade the neighbours that the pole is "a good thing" (tm), does anyone know how we go about contacting Openreach to get them back?

They will want a signed way-leave from the property owner (possibly also proof of title)- can you get that arranged?

Might be easier said than done.

Fairly certain I can get the various owners to agree to sign a wayleave (I've spoken to about a third of them already), the question is how do I engage with Openreach to progress things - I suspect they've assumed that the lane is Local Authority property and preoceeded on that basis, but it's actually collectively owned by all the flat owners.

From the OR website here - https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/obtaining... - it suggests we should contact the "case handler", but we've no way of knowing who that is, and I can't find much else on the website.

Not quite the right form (but unless others here can pick up the baton..) fill in your details in this form. Include the pole number stamped on the pole, the postcode and all the relevant details regarding the works.

Explain that this is an existing Openreach undertaking / works - not a chargeable customer work request.

Thank Pheasant.

As it happens, I just bumped into the Openreach/Morrisons team in the lane. We were joined by the neighbour who objected to the drilling on Friday - she is basically point-blank refusing to give permission for the pole on the grounds that it and the cables will be an eyesore.

To be fair, the OR team were very friendly and are now going off to look at other options - potentially using some existing ducts to get the fibre to one end of the buildings and then following the existing copper cables along the rear of the flats. They did say they thought the ducts might be blocked, but were going to check "Orion" for details (I'm guessing this is some database with cable/duct information?). They'll come back to us with an update in the next week or so.

It's a bit annoying that this will delay fibre availability, but I can't see any other way forward at the moment.

I did manage to get some more details from the OR team on my original question regarding CBT deployment. The plan is to have one CBT per close, so each one servicing 8 flats - they didn't plan to have any CBTs at the top of the poles, they were purely for getting the fibre to the closes.

Fingers crossed🤞

In reply to a post by potterer:

As it happens, I just bumped into the Openreach/Morrisons team in the lane. We were joined by the neighbour who objected to the drilling on Friday - she is basically point-blank refusing to give permission for the pole on the grounds that it and the cables will be an eyesore.

And we wonder why our energy bills are so high and economic growth is so low compared to other countries who actually have a liberal approach to planning laws for infrastructure (be that energy or telecomms).

In reply to a post by Whitehall11:

liberal approach to planning laws for infrastructure (be that energy or telecoms).

Everyone should have the right to complain/object to planning regardless of what the planning is for. A pole today, a 10,000 new home development tomorrow on your doorstep.

An update after a delay of 8 months or so.

OR were (eventually) good to their word, and contractors were here last week - they excavated the lane to unblock the duct and have now run fibre along the back walls of our tenement, following the existing copper cable. There is now one CBT per close, some with 8 connectors and some with 12 - so, if anything, it looks like thay have over-provisioned (at the physical level anyway).

I'll wait now to see when service becomes available from BT. CityFibre recently completed work in our street, so we also have the option to sign up with one of their ISPs, but I still have a year to run on our BT contract, so that is probably my preferred option.

Thanks to everyone for their help on this thread.

And a further update - I have now ordered Full Fibre 900 from BT, with an engineer visit due on Monday to install. I want the ONT in an internal cupboard, so have spent today running conduit (with a draw string) through crawl space under the floors and through the rear wall - am hoping that the OR engineer will happily use that to pull the fibre - the exit point on the rear wall is about 2 metres below the CBT, and the conduit run is ~9m, so a total of 11m, which I think is well within spec?

Will update again once install in complete.

Final update on this. Install went smoothly today - subcontractor was very happy to use the conduit and drawstring I had provided to install the fibre, so it's in my cupboard with the rest of my comms gear (SH2, managed switch, and patch panel terminating CAT6 to all rooms). Total install time was les than 45 mins start to finish. Various speed tests now showing a solid 920/110 service - my son just happily reported that he downloaded 102GB of game updates from Steam in less than 20 mins. Probably helps that we're the first order on this segment, so no contention to the exchange yet.

A few notes from my overall experience in case they help anyone else searching this in future:

- there was roughly 8 months delay from OR being told poles weren't acceptabe to them clearing the duct and deploying wall-mounted CBTs
- to answer my original question - as others suggested, OR deployed enough CBT capacity to allow at least one fibre per property (probably 10% more)
- time from CBTs being installed to orders being open on BT website was only a couple of weeks in this case
- I put in 20mm o/d flexible conduit with a drawstring (pulled through with a vacuum cleaner) and the technician was very happy to use this to keep the install tidy
- I switched the BT SH2 to full-fibre mode before the install was complete (at the request of the installer) - there was no break in service, as the hub kept using the copper at this point
- once the fibre was fully operational (solid green light on ONT) I removed the phone line connection and it switched over instantly

Last point - the ONT is tiny, only around 8cm x 8cm.

Thanks to all for help along the way, I'm off to spend the evening running speed tests