Fibre availability difference by tiny address change

I'm about to move to a new property, an apartment (one of four) in a townhouse in Bristol.

Using the postcode on the availabilty checkers, and selecting the address (including the apartment number) shows that fibre isn't available. However, also on the address drop down is the full address, just without the apartment number. Selecting this shows full fibre availabilty. So fibre is definitely there. Similar happens if I select neighbouring properties and their equivalent apartments.

Considering the apartment is at street level, why is there this discrepancy, and can I actually get full fibre?

Sounds to me like fibre is available to the building itself.

How you would go about getting it is another matter. Who owns the building?

It's a leasehold apartment I'm buying, so there is a 'landlord' who owns the building, but it's really just a management company that I would be buying into when I purchase the property. It's literally just 4 apartments in one building, not a tower block or anything 🤣

My apartment has access to the street if an engineer needs to route anything in. I'm with Zen at my current property and happy to keep using them. Is it worth just ringing them to get things moving, and just giving them the option which has fibre available listed?

If its a road full of full fibre and your apartment/building is one of very few that doesn't have access to it then its either one of two things I suspect.

1) Database error
2) Management company hasn't given permission as they are requesting a wayleave payment.

The "problem" is the same whether there's 100 apartments or just 2. Ideally the owner of the freehold would agree a wayleave for permission to access the building, in this case the management company.

However there was a new law passed in 2021 to make things easier (https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/03/new-uk-law-passed-to-spread-gigabit-broadband-into-big-buildings.html) if the landlord fails to respond.

Speak to Zen, I doubt it's the first time they'll have come across this situation and hopefully they can guide you.

If you are on the ground level and not fed from a pole then I would place the order for the address that can receive service and meet the installer on the day. Better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

I have successfully done this in a property that is part of the Crown Estate by claiming that Openreach installing an FTTP service where copper already existed was simply a cable replacement that is part of the maintenance of the network that the wayleave already permitted.

Edited by jpm (Tue 21-Feb-23 14:29:57)

Wondering if it is possible that the management company have a live fibre connection to the property and then are selling it on and distributing it to the apartments within? I don't know if this is possible or likely but it would explain why there is only 1 fibre connection showing to the address. Are you buying - if so your solicitor could ask the question. If you are renting then ask the people you are renting from.

Which availability checker are you using to check its availability?

Some online websites don't show any FTTP availability as they fail to recognize that it's available. The official ISP website will show it's available.

For example https://bidb.uk/ will show some postcodes as not live while others of the same building addresses as live.

E.g. Uswitch fails to list Community Fibre as available for my postcode but others will show as available.

The best you can do is take a visit to the apartment and see if there are any fibre cables entering that property. If other flats within that apartment have FTTP then more than likely you will have it too.

You can also check by entering the name of the apartment building rather than the postcode to see if the checker wherever you are looking at to see if it will show up as available.

Yeah, I'm buying. I don't think the management company is that sophisticated to be honest 😂 I'll make enquiries though. I think it's far more likely that fibre is available on the street but Openreach just have no record of a wayleave for the apartments hence why they're not showing up as available.

I've tried a few, starting with the one on the Zen website, but have also tried the Openreach one directly, and they're all similar, if they show the overall building as a distinct address (a few don't).

There are cables entering the building by the communal front door but I wouldn't be able to tell if they are specifically fibre ones. I could hazard a guess that none of the other 3 apartments has yet switched to fibre. The building next door is offices and shows up as available on the checkers for some of the names entries so I might take a gander to see if they have fibre looking cables entering somewhere...

Yeah, it's a basement flat with access to the street, no poles at all around. Once I'm in, I will own 25% of the management company anyway so I'm less worried about the permission aspect, I just want to get things going now before I move if possible 😁

Well the easy way to find out is if the property has an ONT socket rather than an Openreach Telephone Master Socket NTE5c. Check with your neighbours to find out what service they have.

You should also confirm what FTTP service this is. Some agencies for example list properties on their website showing Ultra Speed Fibre Optic available but they don't specify which FTTP provider it is. And so the user has to start searching though all the altnets to identify the service that's available to them.

You can check if it is another Altnet FTTP provider that's available, like CityFibre.

I don't have Openreach FTTP e.g. and it doesn't show as plan despite being in Central London. Buildings around me under same housing authority will show as planned between now and 2026 which is quite vague. Nevertheless the Openreach checker is a bit generic anyway.

But I have Community Fibre available in my building for example, haven't ordered service yet. There's high chances that Openreach will start building in my building as well. 2 weeks ago I saw Openreach FTTP van and an engineer was working just outside my street installing for another residential building next to mine.

Openreach will often build FTTP when they sense a threat of competition. When Altnets target these areas all of a sudden Openreach declare their interest in rolling out, what previously appeared to be economically unenviable!

As you are buying why is your solicitor not asking about Broadband as part of the standard pack sent to the owner?

Beastawakens
Are you using the OR checker or some other checker. If the results are from the OR checker it is likely to be a database error where the house is not recognised as flats yet. You should be able to find the link on the checker to report this to them. It used to have a pulldown to pick "My neighbours have FTTP but I cannot"

It could also be that they need agreement to put a 4 port CBT on the outside wall to serve all four flats and this hasn't (yet) been agreed. It could be one of the requests the whoever in the management company opens the mail binned as junk!.

Yeah, it's the OR checker. That may be the case, they were converted to flats in 2016...

I've asked, there's nothing in there about it apparently 🤷🏼‍♂️

The property doen't currently have an ONT socket, it is the old telephone master socket in there currently, so I'd be needing them to come install that. It's definitely showing as available for the main address from Openreach directly. Virgin media is also available as it's city centre so I'm thinking about them as an alternative...

Openreach will often build FTTP when they sense a threat of competition.

This is incorrect.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Openreach will often build FTTP when they sense a threat of competition.

This is incorrect.

What's incorrect about it?
They are following behind Alt-Nets up and down the country.

It would be negligent of them not to target areas where rivals are building their network.

An area is far more likely to be selected for FTTP by Openreach if an Alt-Net picks that particular area.

Edited by j0hn83 (Thu 23-Feb-23 12:32:25)

Not incorrect. Even Mark Jackson from ISPreview said the same thing in the comment section in reply to another poster called Fastman who was trying to attack another user saying "why would Openreach build in areas where there are Altnets." Well something along the line as he has made these repeated claims over the last couple of years.

Here is the link https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2022/11/focus-...
I'm not confabulating or making this up. Read the comment sections.

Mark Jackson says:
November 23, 2022 at 11:07 am

"To be fair Fastman, there have been various examples in the past of rural communities where Openreach have only started to build FTTP after an altnet made its own plans public or started building, often doing a dramatic U-turn in the process (e.g. calling it commercially unviable one day, then reversing that the next)."

Also the comment sections of this FT article this month https://www.ft.com/content/031dcf72-dfaf-4e90-85d2-3...
"BT chief warns Openreach fibre push will ‘end in tears’ for rivals"

If you can't read the article directly without FT subscription just copy and paste the heading to google search and the article will open from the link.

Here scroll down and you will see 89 comments of other posters giving their same experience. This is Openreach and Philip Jansen basically indirectly telling us all that he wants to maintain its monopoly and to try and make the Altnets lose courage and stop building, that is indeed his wish.

I can also go as far as to say that this is the first time 2 weeks ago I saw Openreach FTTP works outside in Wentworth street, Petticoat Square Market here in London and I saw the physical fibre cables. For years I have never seen Openreach do any fibre works. They barely upgraded my area to FTTC from EO Line in October 2019 after years of waiting on faulty ADSL service.

My area has just gone live in December by Community Fibre following a wayleave agreement 2 years ago. And now Openreach FTTP are starting to work in my area. These are not business but residential homes. Sorry, but that is not a coincidence!

Do you think Openreach will be happy to just sit there and eventually lose all their FTTC customers to the Altnets and not do anything about it? Of-course not! Why is the "Fibre First programme" announced? Is it because they are only doing this purely out of courtesy?

They'd be silly not to follow up areas where they are paying other providers to clear their ducts out and install their own services, knowing the ducts are all open and ready to go.

What's incorrect about it?
They are following behind Alt-Nets up and down the country.

What his post said was that an Altnet presence would prompt Openreach to build there too …. and this is patently not true. Two local areas near here have heavy Altnet roll outs, one has two, the other three … and I still don’t see some hastened roll out by Openreach. It’s just a convenient theory.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Openreach will often build FTTP when they sense a threat of competition.

This is incorrect.

What's incorrect about it?
They are following behind Alt-Nets up and down the country.

It would be negligent of them not to target areas where rivals are building their network.

An area is far more likely to be selected for FTTP by Openreach if an Alt-Net picks that particular area.

It is both right and wrong.

At a national level one would expect Openreach to respond to competition which would result in them tending to build where other networks are gaining market share.

At a specific property level it means nothing, Openreach will not care whether or not they have competition at a specific property.

I know there has been claims made previously including from a regular poster in Hereford, the gap there between Zzoomm and Openreach going live wasn't very long so unless Openreach have a crack team of Ninja Warriors ready to fast track every area where altnets are rolling out nationwide I can't see how they can get it done so quickly as a simple CFP or FTTPoD takes 18 months.

Edited by deleted (Thu 23-Feb-23 21:39:24)

It also works the other way.

We've had Openreach FTTP in my area for almost 2 years now, admittedly we are an island in a sea of copper, and two Altnets have recently built up to the end of my road.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

It’s just a convenient theory.

Of course its all guesswork, every network operator is commercial and their rollout plans are confidential to certain staff.

Its fun to speculate that OR want to maintain their income, perhaps focusing on areas where there is little Virgin Media or AltNet activity today, or where there is a lot of AltNet activity (with no VM)... but might deprioritise areas where they've lost business to VM in the last 15/20 years.

Who knows?!

Who knows?!

Exactly.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

What's incorrect about it?
They are following behind Alt-Nets up and down the country.

What his post said was that an Altnet presence would prompt Openreach to build there too …. and this is patently not true. Two local areas near here have heavy Altnet roll outs, one has two, the other three … and I still don’t see some hastened roll out by Openreach. It’s just a convenient theory.

I didn't say it would definitely happen just because of an Altnet presence but there's a good chance if the area had a massive turnover of customers then Openreach will naturally want to take action.

It cannot be viewed as black and white of-course. If an Altnet is available to only a handful of few houses in a village or town that won't prompt Openreach to build there too.

Also I believe that Openreach will assess the situation based on how many customers have joined the Altnet.

You mention those heavy altnet roll outs, what are they and what are their prices? If these Altnets are too expensive, more expensive than what FTTC has to offer and there aren't that many customer take-up then Openreach may ignore the area.

It all depends on the situation. I look at many residential buildings here in Central London where I live where 90+% of all the flats within the building have signed up to Hyperoptic.
How I know this? Well I just look at a particular postcode and look up at a random address and I see "It looks like we’re already there" "Hyperoptic is already up and running at that address."

Of-course Community Fibre and other altnets don't give me that information. I do not know how many have taken up Community Fibre yet in my building since it went live in December. However, I can see my FTTC connection crosstalk seemed to have been relieved in the last month and my connection speed has returned back to 80Mbps! Not sure if this is a coincidence, but I've been a customer with BT for 7 months and my router connection sync previously was at 75Mbps on average.

I'd like to think that customers in my area have joined Community Fibre and my cabinet has less congestion/crosstalk.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

What's incorrect about it?
They are following behind Alt-Nets up and down the country.

What his post said was that an Altnet presence would prompt Openreach to build there too …. and this is patently not true.

It isn't what he says at all.

Openreach will often build FTTP when they sense a threat of competition.

The key word being often

If you're arguing that Openreach never react to competition and don't ever modify/bring forward plans in an area due to an Alt-Net rollout then I don't know what to say to you.

Nobody said they always do, or definitely will, follow an Alt-Nets plans but without a doubt in many areas they do exactly that.
They would be negligent not to do so.

Point taken …

my gripe was with the posters implication that Openreach would hasten to roll out where Altnet’s had already begun …. this isn’t the case, but would make for a good story if it were true.

The fact is, Altnet’s and Openreach, Virgin, uncle Tom Cobbly and all, are all rolling out wherever they see fit … this overlaps in some places, and not others. They are all beholden to shareholders, and all keen to make a profit. There will be a surfeit in some areas, and an absence in others.