SOGEA query

I am trying to get my head around the implications of changing from FTTC to SOGEA. Can a router connected to an internal phone extension work as before on SOGEA? Does SOGEA use exactly the same copper line as FTTC? Will SOGEA still be available after FTTP becomes available in an area? If so, how long is it likely to remain available for existing SOGEA users?

It should be exactly the same as FTTC, it just doesn't have a telephone port/line.

Thanks for reply Ian72. Can anyone answer the other parts of my questions:
Will SOGEA still be available after FTTP becomes available in an area? If so, how long is it likely to remain available for existing SOGEA users?

Doesnt FTTP have to be available to 75% of properties before copper (and FTTC) stop sell applies?

And it wont get withdrawn until after the stop sell which lasts a year

In reply to a post by Terryphi:

I am trying to get my head around the implications of changing from FTTC to SOGEA. Can a router connected to an internal phone extension work as before on SOGEA? Does SOGEA use exactly the same copper line as FTTC? Will SOGEA still be available after FTTP becomes available in an area? If so, how long is it likely to remain available for existing SOGEA users?

1)
Yes, nothing changes there.

2)
Yes, SOGEA and FTTC are both VDSL2 - the only difference is SOGEA does not include a 'voice' telephony service on the line itself.

3)
Sort of. Some suppliers may elect to only provide FTTP once it is available (quite wisely potentially) even if SOGEA technically available. The reality is you'll be moving to FTTP ultimately.

4)
Depends on various factors, but again, your ISP would handle any transition from ADSL/FTTC/SOGEA to FTTP and the answer won't be precise and the same in every case.

In reply to a post by Terryphi:

Will SOGEA still be available after FTTP becomes available in an area? If so, how long is it likely to remain available for existing SOGEA users?

Yes, and it will remain available until a copper "stop sell" applies in that area. At that point, if FTTP is available at your property then you'll no longer be able to order a new SOGEA line, regrade your existing one, or migrate it to a different ISP.

However, you can continue with your existing line under your existing ISP: it won't be pulled away from you.

Openreach are counting on natural churn. *Eventually* I imagine Openreach will apply pressure to your ISP to get you to migrate, but I've not yet seen any scheme to forcibly terminate SOGEA service, because there's no hard cutoff time for copper withdrawal.

(That's unlike the PSTN withdrawal, where there's a hard cutoff of Dec 2025. Plans have been announced to start intermittently degrading broadband service on WLR lines, to try to force users to contact their ISP and get a regrade to SOGEA. Whether people will act remains to be seen)

However if you are with an ISP within the BT group (BT, EE, Plusnet) then they are likely to be proactive in moving you over to FTTP when it becomes available, and you may have to fight if you want to stay on SOGEA.

Given someone asked, can I ask, do you get faster speeds having SOGEA FTTC?

Does it result in a cleaner line and thus higher sync rates not having any voice on the line?

It doesn't affect your speed, it's the same FTTC service. Some suppliers are saying you will get better speeds on SOGEA, it's not true.

Well I swapped my line to sogea some weeks ago as the price was benificial, my speed has now dropped some 5mb and also the hand back speed has been dropped significantly

Thanks candlerb. Very helpful. As you can see I am with IDNet so fingers crossed.

In reply to a post by Realalemadrid:

It doesn't affect your speed, it's the same FTTC service. Some suppliers are saying you will get better speeds on SOGEA, it's not true.

Completely agree.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Yes, and it will remain available until a copper "stop sell" applies in that area. At that point, if FTTP is available at your property then you'll no longer be able to order a new SOGEA line, regrade your existing one, or migrate it to a different ISP.

However, you can continue with your existing line under your existing ISP: it won't be pulled away from you.

Openreach are counting on natural churn. *Eventually* I imagine Openreach will apply pressure to your ISP to get you to migrate, but I've not yet seen any scheme to forcibly terminate SOGEA service, because there's no hard cutoff time for copper withdrawal.

(That's unlike the PSTN withdrawal, where there's a hard cutoff of Dec 2025. Plans have been announced to start intermittently degrading broadband service on WLR lines, to try to force users to contact their ISP and get a regrade to SOGEA. Whether people will act remains to be seen)

However if you are with an ISP within the BT group (BT, EE, Plusnet) then they are likely to be proactive in moving you over to FTTP when it becomes available, and you may have to fight if you want to stay on SOGEA.

Openreach don't need to do it, providers are doing it for them. Talk Talk is forcing people onto FTTP, by giving them what they call a free upgrade. Not sure how that would work here, since TalkTalk still seem to think there is no Openreach FTTP available. You go to other providers and they show FTTP only. People don't seem to be having much choice if they have FTTP available.

In reply to a post by Peterdevon:

Well I swapped my line to sogea some weeks ago as the price was benificial, my speed has now dropped some 5mb and also the hand back speed has been dropped significantly

Should not affect it at all, Maybe have a word with your ISP.

Problem with degrading WLR to encourage migration to FTTC is that we have locations where FTTC collapses within 40mins of a power outage, but WLR stays up for hours because the exchange kit is on maintained power. That's why we keep WLR. FTTP from a provider who can provide the same resilience to power outage as we have on WLR is not yet available and may never be.

In reply to a post by ajseeds:

Problem with degrading WLR to encourage migration to FTTC is that we have locations where FTTC collapses within 40mins of a power outage, but WLR stays up for hours because the exchange kit is on maintained power. That's why we keep WLR. FTTP from a provider who can provide the same resilience to power outage as we have on WLR is not yet available and may never be.

A UPS at your end is the expected solution to that - and that is not likely to change.

If you get FTTP available I would migrate to it from SOGEA as FTTP is a newer better product. the only reason I would have for not moving to FTTP would be I lose my analogue line and have to get a pure digital phone line.
You would of lost your Analogue line on SOGEA anyway so essentially you would have a line that's susceptible to the elements and cable length. With FTTP being comparable to SOGEA in price its really a no brainer to keep SOGEA.

Why would you want a 50 year old line prone to faults if you have FTTP available??

Think you are confusing WLR and FTTC

BT are removing the Analogue phone line from the FTTC product sogea is still FTTC bit with no PTSN as SYSTEMs X and SYSTEMS Y (the phone network) are being turned off the new FTTC equipment is fully battery backed up (as was system x/y)

There are Battery back up solutions for FTTx you would just need to invest in them if you needed a phone line while BT / or the power company fix the power cut.

In reply to a post by pyarwood:

the new FTTC equipment is fully battery backed up (as was system x/y)

You can't compare the backup solution of a FTTC cabinet with the backup available at the exchange for System X (or Y)

In reply to a post by PCJM40:

In reply to a post by pyarwood:

the new FTTC equipment is fully battery backed up (as was system x/y)

You can't compare the backup solution of a FTTC cabinet with the backup available at the exchange for System X (or Y)

I guess you can compare it... but it just doesn't compare very well!

In reply to a post by ajseeds:

Problem with degrading WLR to encourage migration to FTTC is that we have locations where FTTC collapses within 40mins of a power outage, but WLR stays up for hours because the exchange kit is on maintained power. That's why we keep WLR. FTTP from a provider who can provide the same resilience to power outage as we have on WLR is not yet available and may never be.

Since FTTP is powered from the exchange (and a larger "head-end" exchange at that, not an itty-bitty local one), it will have excellent backup power facilities.

The Openreach FTTP network is completely passive - no powered cabinets - so there's nothing else in between that needs to maintain power. Just your home, where you can install a UPS of whatever capacity you like.

In comparison, some of the altnets (and Virgin) have powered cabinets, likely with little or no battery backup.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by ajseeds:

Problem with degrading WLR to encourage migration to FTTC is that we have locations where FTTC collapses within 40mins of a power outage, but WLR stays up for hours because the exchange kit is on maintained power. That's why we keep WLR. FTTP from a provider who can provide the same resilience to power outage as we have on WLR is not yet available and may never be.

Since FTTP is powered from the exchange (and a larger "head-end" exchange at that, not an itty-bitty local one), it will have excellent backup power facilities.

The Openreach FTTP network is completely passive - no powered cabinets - so there's nothing else in between that needs to maintain power. Just your home, where you can install a UPS of whatever capacity you like.

In comparison, some of the altnets (and Virgin) have powered cabinets, likely with little or no battery backup.

Bingo - Whereas your local FTTC Cab can get wiped out by a car or lorry, or suffer a power failiure etc, the fttp connection power point of failure risk is on the end user. Just buy a generator.

Or a solar PV system with battery and an emergency power outlet from the inverter.

SOGEA is FTTC without the ANALOGUE phone line service it could be sold with a digital VOIP phone service like sky and vodafone do

Edited by pyarwood (Thu 12-Oct-23 23:59:01)

Quick question whilst I'm reading this... if migrating to SOGEA from FTTC+Phone (no FTTP in our area for the forceeable) - is there any swapping about in cabs? Only asking as I accidentally/luckily got put in an overflow cab for my second connection and its VDSL2 speeds are twice vs my OG line - and I'd hate that to change! Cheers

If migrating an existing service, then the same VDSL ports *ought* to be used … not saying they will, just that they ought to.