Fttp installation and telephone line hook up

Hi, hope I’m in the right place.
I’m due to have Fttp installed in the next 2 weeks.

Currently my existing copper line comes into the house and is connected to a BT Openreach Telephone Master Socket NTE5c . From that box wires are extended to a socket downstairs where the cordless phone and alarms speech dialler is plugged into.

My question is when the new digital cable comes through the wall and the old copper line is disconnected how do I connect from the new equipment to the existing master socket in order to replicate the same services I.e landline calls etc, ?
currently the only thing connected to the master socket is the feed to the router (internet services) and the extension cable to downstairs. Thanks for any help.

You don't give any details of which services you're moving from and to. It sounds like you currently have a conventional broadband + phone setup over copper, and you want to continue the landline phone with FTTP.

1) If you don't cancel your existing service it will continue, not be disconnected.
2) You will need some kind of VoIP service for your phone. You might get this either from your new FTTP provider, or from a 3rd party service like Sipgate, Voipfone etc.
3) If you cease your existing service, you can port your current phone number to the VoIP service if that's a requirement, but you need to do this right otherwise you risk losing it. There are many posts on this forum about all this if you search.
4) If it's just the wiring you're worried about, there's a guide here on how to do it

Hi, I’m with Talktalk and getting a free upgrade of the copper line to digital line in order to receive full fibre. The existing copper line will be disconnected as soon as the new digital line is installed, which leaves me to think how the new digital line will connect to the master socket - my thinking is that the digital line now acts as the supply line that the copper line once did.
If the current copper line which goes to the master socket is disconnected , where does the connection happen between the new line coming in (digital) and my phone services. Do I just connect between the router and the existing master socket with a cable?

Do not attempt to connect the phone socket on the router to the existing master socket as there may still be voltages present from the existing copper line (it may not be removed during installation).

The guide mentioned in the previous post, or https://support.aa.net.uk/VoIP_How_to:_Voice_reinjec... describe methods to connect the phone socket on the router to fixed extension wiring.

The new fibre cable does not necessarily have to enter the premises at the same location as the existing copper cable, you may wish to have it in a more suitable location which you can discuss with the installer on the day.

Hi thanks for the advice, my neighbour who is also with TT has had his upgrade done 2 days ago and they disconnected the old copper line but did not physically move the old wire.
My master socket is in the same place as my router , double socket for power close by , postipned in the centre of the house(landing). Essentially the new router will keep their positions as currently as will the new ONT box . The master socket is less than 1m away.

I need the master socket as it also feeds other extension points, therefore I need to know if I can connect to it simply by connecting the master socket point to the router with an extending cable.
Thanks

During your neighbours upgrade did they physically disconnect the copper line from the master socket, or is it just a case that the broadband and voice services have been migrated in which case the line will still be connected to equipment at the exchange.

Per the links in the previous posts you should separate the extension wiring to prevent backfeeding into the Openreach network unless you are absolutely certain the external line has been physically disconnected from the master socket.

Openreach did trial voice reinjection faceplates for the master socket which provides the necessary isolation of internal and external wiring, but I believe that approach was dropped for various reasons (logistics of identifying type of master socket and upgrading where necessary on FTTC->SOGEA migration, mimimal use of wired extensions by households, etc.). You could ask the engineer doing the installation if he has any VRI faceplates kicking about in his van, although it is unlikely.

Can’t be certain if they have disconnected from either the neighbours master socket or from the pole connection point. What was certain was when I went round to help him with his phone I plugged his phone into the master socket and got no tone, tried ringing out from his landline a number but nothing, tried calling his landline and only got the ringing tone down the line but the his phone would not ring.

I connected his cordless phone plug directly to his router and it worked - which makes sense , however I’m relying on my existing master socket to be my main point to connect my new digital install (for calls)which also then branches out to other connections downstairs.

Laminated flooring all over the place so will struggle to connect other points from a new master socket coming in from digital installation.

Hi just to update, I went round to my neighbours and plugged in a phone into his existing copper fed master socket. This has no connections to the new digital installation. There is No dial tone when the receiver is lifted however when I called his landline the phone rang and so did his phone which is connected to the internet router. So the old copper line is active in some respects. What that means I don’t know.

I spoke to TT today about my situation and they are unable to confirm if the speech dialler situation will continue to work (outward call); based on my neighbours situation after his install it would appear that outward bound calls will cease via the copper line.

It’s a mess no one seems to know what’s going on . If you answer yes to emergency access and house alarm equipment on the survey the appoint is cancelled and one is not eligible for the upgrade,.

In reply to a post by G1967:

If you answer yes to emergency access and house alarm equipment on the survey the appoint is cancelled and one is not eligible for the upgrade,.

Sounds like you've answered your own question – TalkTalk aren't able to guarantee that you'll still be able to connect your equipment to a telephone line via their digital voice solution.

Strongly recommend that you contact the supplier of the alarm system to try and find a solution. For the phones, I imagine you can use a standard DECT cordless phone system.

I think I’ll hold out and remain on the current set up until everything gets switched off, apparently I’ve heard that city fibre are working on solutions where there can still be digital and landline services for people in similar situation as mine. Not really prepared to pay out for the dialler upgrade as the upgrades are a national thing rather than a personal one.

They should have thought of this beforehand.

In reply to a post by G1967:

I think I’ll hold out and remain on the current set up until everything gets switched off

This is just kicking the can down the road

Possibly, but it’s not my can at the moment I’m kicking, if there’s an urgency to get people over to digital then the providers have to go their bit to put the customer in the same position as before. Rollout still in its infancy a bit like electric cars, in a state of flux monthly.

Ofcom’s article:
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/news-centre/2021/upgrading-...

In reply to a post by G1967:

if there’s an urgency to get people over to digital then the providers have to go their bit to put the customer in the same position as before

I don't think it's reasonable to expect providers to re-arrange home wiring on behalf of customers, or to (re)configure alarm systems. I'm afraid you'll have to take some personal responsibility otherwise you're likely to find things don't work as you'd like post PSTN switch-off.

(you might have some extra time as TalkTalk use MPF, but fundamentally the future will be all IP so you might as well start preparing sooner rather than later)

I’m certainly not asking anyone to reconfigure my wiring or alarm but simply asking the question where is the retrofit technology consideration in these matters. The personal liability costs are mounting up because of so called up grades, 7.5k for a new heat pump boiler, 30k for a battery car, etc etc etc - get my drift. Thanks for the input but I’ll wait a couple of years as I don’t think my Netflix will differ much if I’m a few hundred mbps down. Govt. policy is up and down like aa yo yo.

Reminds me of the time when terrestrial signal was being switched off for tv services everyone was going mad buying something called digital arieals which don’t really exist.

In reply to a post by G1967:

I think I’ll hold out and remain on the current set up until everything gets switched off, apparently I’ve heard that city fibre are working on solutions where there can still be digital and landline services for people in similar situation as mine. Not really prepared to pay out for the dialler upgrade as the upgrades are a national thing rather than a personal one.

They should have thought of this beforehand.

With respect I would suggest that this is only sensible if you use the time between now and end-2025 to plan how you are going to manage the transition, not just hold out and do nothing. While I would agree that there has been insufficient publicity about the switch-off, which is not helped by the fact that all the different CPs out there may take different approaches, it has been known since 2017 that this is going to happen. @jchamier's reference is dated 2021. It's all very well blaming "They", but you need to take some responsibility yourself. If you're not willing to upgrade your dialler if necessary, and it turns out for whatever reason not to be compatible with VoIP systems, then there's not much that CityFibre nor any other ISP will be able to do.

I would not rely on "urgency" to transfer folks to VoIP to force them to come up with a solution, especially if you reject the transition now. My guess is that, come the end of 2025, many folks are going to be left high and dry with kit that no longer works.

It's now too late to switch ISPs if you don't like the way TT are handling this. The PSTN stop-sell came into force on 5 September. Any ISP you switch to now will only be able to offer you a digital voice line of some kind.

In reply to a post by G1967:

simply asking the question where is the retrofit technology consideration in these matters

You can probably use voice reinjection to make extension wiring work. You would need to check with your alarm manufacturer if it works over VoIP.

It doesn't matter if you upgrade to FTTP or not -- the PSTN is being switched off at the end of 2025.

Well they’re still selling the old system packages for 24months on uswitch if you care to look. And TT are quite happy to renew my current package and set ip, contrary clearly no rush

If the sell stop came into force on the 5sept then why are TT prepared to renew my existing package / setup for another 18 months, look on uswitch deals galore on copper setup. The only this that’s lagging is my wallet

In reply to a post by G1967:

Well they’re still selling the old system packages for 24months on uswitch if you care to look. And TT are quite happy to renew my current package and set ip, contrary clearly no rush

They can decide at any time (even if you have signed a new contract) to switch you to their digital voice service so please don't be fooled that you will have many many more years on a analogue voice service. Is there any way you could use your neighbour's migrated service to test your old fashion legacy dialler? you might find it works!!

Edited by PCJM40 (Mon 25-Sep-23 22:02:53)

In reply to a post by G1967:

If the sell stop came into force on the 5sept then why are TT prepared to renew my existing package / setup for another 18 months, look on uswitch deals galore on copper setup. The only this that’s lagging is my wallet

You can renew your copper service but if you want to switch you have to go to FTTP (as you have FTTP available). Some FTTP providers have a digital voice service other providers have dropped voice all together.

In reply to a post by G1967:

Well they’re still selling the old system packages for 24months on uswitch if you care to look. And TT are quite happy to renew my current package and set ip, contrary clearly no rush

Pulse8 appear to still be offering broadband and line rental which is probably using the TalkTalk Business network (MPF) on "no contact", 12 months or 24 months contracts. However their site indicates migrations from ADSL + line rental and not specifically VDSL + line rental. Possibly worth checking with them if you are interested in moving to another provider who has a good reputation.

That’s a good idea , when you say test do you mean to connect my speech dialler plug to the back of his router.?

In reply to a post by G1967:

That’s a good idea , when you say test do you mean to connect my speech dialler plug to the back of his router.?

Yes, If you can

Thanks for that , good lateral thinking, the speech dialler also allows the user to send a test call to a landline or a mobile, would this suffice as a test when I hook up to the neighbours router or should I test in full activated alarm bells mode? Would either prove it the set up works or not

In reply to a post by G1967:

Thanks for that , good lateral thinking, the speech dialler also allows the user to send a test call to a landline or a mobile, would this suffice as a test when I hook up to the neighbours router or should I test in full activated alarm bells mode? Would either prove it the set up works or not

I would do the simple outgoing test call a few times just to make sure.

I would also want to see what happens when you have both the dialler and a telephone handset connected to the router phone socket (you may need to use a phone doubler plug to achieve that) then ring your neighbours number from your mobile and see if incoming calls ring and can be answered, make sure you do that test several times as I believe one of the possible issues is the dialler doesn't disconnect the line correctly.

Edited by PCJM40 (Mon 25-Sep-23 22:49:52)

In reply to a post by G1967:

If the sell stop came into force on the 5sept then why are TT prepared to renew my existing package / setup for another 18 months, look on uswitch deals galore on copper setup. The only this that’s lagging is my wallet

It's a WLR stop sell and it did indeed come in to effect on 5th September.
You can't order an analogue telephone line from the likes of BT any more (certain exclusions apply).

Talktalk use fully unbundled mpf and are not effected by this particular stop sell.

https://www.comms-dealer.com/sponsored-content/avoid...

However like many other providers they make no mention of how voice services are delivered and they are free to move you to a VOIP solution any time they like. They haven't routinely been doing this like other providers though.

They are still effected by the FTTP Priority stop sell (which kicks in once 75% of an announced exchange has Ultrafast coverage).
Anyone on such an exchange with FTTP available to them may be forced to take FTTP meaning no mpf (again certain exclusions apply).

Ok will try that however the way the dialler works is that upto 3 numbers are stored into it and upon a alarm activation it will ring programmed 1 number first if no answer programmed 2 and then 3 if no answer from 2 and so on. The person answering the call has to press and hold the number 8 button on their phones for 2s to acknowledge the call and this will deactivate the dialler from continuing ringing out.

The Phone receiving the call must be a tone dialling phone otherwise the call cannot be acknowledged and the dialler will keep looping and continue ringing people.

If your suggestion does work will this allow the master socket I have which also acts as an extension feed to downstairs to the speech dialler plug in point to continue to work. The new scenario setup would be:

1. connect a phone extension cable to new router and the existing master socket (which acts as ext to speech dialler connection downstairs), so the master socket would now act purely as an extension to the speech dialler plug in point and any calls would be made via Wi-Fi or voip.


Could that work?

This would be the ideal swap

2.

If the testing at your neighbours works correctly then the guys on here should be able to advise what needs to be done to hook the router telephone socket to the existing wiring.

what is the model of this dialler ?

Its one thing we don't know about it !

Importantly here you are getting upset because a budget low-cost provider with a reputation for not having great service (TalkTalk) are not being helpful. There is clearly not a fundamental problem because the likes of BT are managing to provide lots of information and have a fully developed product offering and have been operating a test facility for the past five years (https://www.bt.com/help/user-guides/phones/digital-voice/digital-voice-adapter, https://www.bt.com/about/special-services/latest-new...

Other providers like Andrews and Arnold with a reputation for catering to the more technical user have published instruction about how to perform voice reinjection - https://support.aa.net.uk/VoIP_How_to:_Voice_reinjec...

TalkTalk are living up to their reputation and price, this is presumably a choice you made when assessing your different options for which ISP to use.

In reply to a post by jpm:

Importantly here you are getting upset because a budget low-cost provider with a reputation for not having great service (TalkTalk) are not being helpful.

I can see the point you are making but the OP does also need to take some responsibility, its not all TalkTalk's fault.

It’s an SD1 speech dialler

You are stating the obvious. If we all followed “pay your monies take your choices” theory nothing would improve, you are stating the obvious pay and get anything done, your comparisons could apply to anything, cheap flights,cheap health care, where does it stop, this is a service if they don’t deliver they will go out of business , therefore company’s have to listen to their customers or they walk.

Well walk then. TalkTalk can't give you any clear guidance on the impact of their digital voice migration, vote with your feet. TalkTalk have probably correctly determined that catering to people with analogue line requirements over and above a port where a DECT base can plug into is not worth the costs they would incur from having to support them.

What outcome are you hoping for? There isn't a service that ISPs offer where someone comes into your house and re-wires your internal extensions to plug into your router, though the A&A instructions from earlier cover that. There also isn't an option to stay on copper forever (as stated earlier, TalkTalk are going to want to save themselves the costs associated with your analogue line as soon as they are able to), but you have a choice of all remaining options for how you want to handle this.

Edited by jpm (Tue 26-Sep-23 15:16:46)

Lets do one step at a time, the OP is going to check compatibility of their speech dialler with a neighbour's TalkTalk digital voice service first, the wiring is the easy bit with the A&A instructions if the speech dialler is compatible.

Edited by PCJM40 (Tue 26-Sep-23 17:50:36)

In reply to a post by G1967:

Hi just to update, I went round to my neighbours and plugged in a phone into his existing copper fed master socket. This has no connections to the new digital installation. There is No dial tone when the receiver is lifted however when I called his landline the phone rang and so did his phone which is connected to the internet router. So the old copper line is active in some respects. What that means I don’t know.

The old copper line won't be active in any way.

Your neighbour is using an ISP that supports internet calls (Voice over IP or VoIP for short) where the phone is connected to the router and calls are made/received via the fibre connection instead of the copper line.

Definitely rang both phones. I took round a corded handset and the neighbours own rang as well.

Since it's TalkTalk doing MPF then it's possible they have their kit configured in this way to give a lot of overlap before ceasing the copper.

cant walk away yet, got a call from TT customer services today out of the blue wanting to know what the issues are. They will contact me with an answer to my queries as soon as they have completed their inquiries. By the way a lot of presumptions in your post which from a business point of view would render TT useless and therefore out of business.

In reply to a post by G1967:

Definitely rang both phones. I took round a corded handset and the neighbours own rang as well.

This ringing of both the old analogue and new digital service is only a transitional thing, after a period of time the analogue service will cease completely.

A Speech Dialler should work with VOIP
Its old style data communicators that may have issues with new systems

In reply to a post by pyarwood:

A Speech Dialler should work with VOIP

The bit in bold above is why you should always test.

In reply to a post by G1967:

cant walk away yet, got a call from TT customer services today out of the blue wanting to know what the issues are. They will contact me with an answer to my queries as soon as they have completed their inquiries. By the way a lot of presumptions in your post which from a business point of view would render TT useless and therefore out of business.

As a long time TT customer I can tell you that there are often times they don't know their a£&e from their elbow. You might be lucky and get correct info from them, or they might tell you any old guff, been there got the tee shirt. This is particularly true of their switch to Voip as I found out earlier this year. BTW TT are splitting the business up, probably to sell off some parts in a bid to stay in business.

Just setting up an extension lead to test on my neighbours router. Before I continue I need to wire up a 431a socket plug on the other end of my cable. The Slave socket into which I’m plugging the speech dialler plug into is wired as follows:
2 - blue
3 - orange
5 - blue/white

My question is which colour wires am I crimping onto the other end of my extension cable plug (431a) which will go into the neighbours router. Numbers to corresponding connection points would be helpful.

Also I can only see one wire from the speech dialler cable terminating into a 431a plug

Just setting up an extension lead to test on my neighbours router. Before I continue I need to wire up a 431a socket plug on the other end of my cable. The Slave socket into which I’m plugging the speech dialler plug into is wired as follows:
2 - blue
3 - orange
5 - blue/white

My question is which colour wires am I crimping onto the other end of my extension cable plug (431a) which will go into the neighbours router. Numbers to corresponding connection points would be helpful.

Also I can only see one wire from the speech dialler cable terminating into a 431a plug.

Sorry I don't know the answer thats why I haven't replied, I was hoping someone more knowledgeable would answer this question for you.

You might find this web page helpful: Telephone Wiring
or perhaps this one: Telephone Plug and Socket

Be careful to check pin numbering on the plug and socket - if remember correctly they are reversed... but I am no expert - sorry