Migrating FTTP service - when two FTTP services are active

I currently have two FTTP services active at my property, both on their own single port ONT. I originally had FTTP installed a few years ago and then last year I had a second service installed for work purposes (a dedicated line).

I mentioned to the engineer (MJ Quinn contractor) at the time of the second service being installed that he should swap the ONT to a multi-port but after several calls to his manager he said they don't have a supply of these or know how to do it, so the only way to get a second service was another fibre pull from the pole across the road. Grr...

Needing the connection, I agreed as who am I to argue?

Now, I am looking to migrate the original FTTP service to a new ISP. How can I do this with two lines at my property as how will the system know which one to migrate? I presume its linked to the serial on the ONT but most providers I've spoken to have no clue and just tell me to order online with my address. But I can't just do that, too risky...

Also, some online checkers from ISP's are saying I can't get Full Fibre at all, so stops me in my tracks... even though the BT Wholesale checker for my address says it can be ordered.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

Edited by jamestbb (Thu 08-Feb-24 16:45:06)

In reply to a post by jamestbb:

I currently have two FTTP services active at my property, both on their own single port ONT. I originally had FTTP installed a few years ago and then last year I had a second service installed for work purposes (a dedicated line).

I mentioned to the engineer (MJ Quinn contractor) at the time of the second service being installed that he should swap the ONT to a multi-port but after several calls to his manager he said they don't have a supply of these or know how to do it, so the only way to get a second service was another fibre pull from the pole across the road. Grr...

Needing the connection, I agreed as who am I to argue?


Thanks!

multiport onts do exist.... They are currently limited to 1gb ports though.

then last year I had a second service installed for work purposes (a dedicated line).

how was this installed and are you sure you have "a dedicated line"..? Are you fed underground or overhead?

In reply to a post by jamestbb:

Needing the connection, I agreed as who am I to argue?

The multi port as you call it only has one fibre going into it so at the point the engineer turned up it was already too late. Lots of the big ISP's can only assign to the first port so even if you had a multi port it may not been possible.

I will be interested to see how they know what ISP service to migrate, who are you looking at switching your service from and to?

I have two separate cables from the pole to my house, both going in to a separate port on the CBT and two physical single port ONT's in my living room.

Current service is with BT Business, migrating to either Sky or Plusnet, both of which are likely to not know how to do it... this is my dilemma.

In reply to a post by Taras:

how was this installed and are you sure you have "a dedicated line"..?

I think they mean its been installed for business use rather than personal use, so is dedicated in that way rather than dedicated as in a leased line.

Edited by PCJM40 (Thu 08-Feb-24 16:21:24)

Correct.

Have a look at Andrews and Arnold ISP, it will be interesting as they show the serial numbers and ports of the current services at the property https://www.aa.net.uk/

In reply to a post by jamestbb:

Current service is with BT Business, migrating to either Sky or Plusnet, both of which are likely to not know how to do it... this is my dilemma.

I think Plusnet would have some competent staff left somewhere, you probably want to phone them and have the ONT serial number to hand.

Thanks, A&A show both services:

https://i.imgur.com/kRN9QbR.png

Cost prohibitive I'm afraid, though.

In reply to a post by jamestbb:

Correct.

Just comfirming what i suspected and what you confirmed and PCJM40, also suspected 😁 Thank you.

I'm not sure spitting out the full ONT serial number to anybody who can enter an address into the website is a great idea.

I did think that... alas.

In reply to a post by jamestbb:

Thanks, A&A show both services:

https://i.imgur.com/kRN9QbR.png

Cost prohibitive I'm afraid, though.

As suggested by someone else give Plusnet a call and see what they can do for you.

Will give them a try.

In reply to a post by jpm:

I'm not sure spitting out the full ONT serial number to anybody who can enter an address into the website is a great idea.

I'm not sure i said that 😂.

Just comfirming what i suspected and what you confirmed and PCJM40, also suspected 😁 Thank you.

I don't putting the full ont serial on here is a good idea either.

In reply to a post by Taras:

In reply to a post by jpm:

I'm not sure spitting out the full ONT serial number to anybody who can enter an address into the website is a great idea.

I'm not sure i said that 😂.

Just comfirming what i suspected and what you confirmed and PCJM40, also suspected 😁 Thank you.

I don't putting the full ont serial on here is a good idea either.

I was talking about A&A - it seems like you feed their website an address of an active Openreach FTTP customer and it gives you the serial number back without any authentication.

In reply to a post by jpm:

In reply to a post by Taras:

In reply to a post by jpm:

I'm not sure spitting out the full ONT serial number to anybody who can enter an address into the website is a great idea.

I'm not sure i said that 😂.

Just comfirming what i suspected and what you confirmed and PCJM40, also suspected 😁 Thank you.

I don't putting the full ont serial on here is a good idea either.

I was talking about A&A - it seems like you feed their website an address of an active Openreach FTTP customer and it gives you the serial number back without any authentication.

ahh fair enough 😁, and yes thats not good and could allow a bad actor to move a fttp service without auth .......

In reply to a post by Taras:

In reply to a post by jpm:

In reply to a post by Taras:

... nested quotes trimmed ...

I'm not sure i said that 😂.

... nested quotes trimmed ...

I don't putting the full ont serial on here is a good idea either.

I was talking about A&A - it seems like you feed their website an address of an active Openreach FTTP customer and it gives you the serial number back without any authentication.

ahh fair enough 😁, and yes thats not good and could allow a bad actor to move a fttp service without auth .......

You don't even need to know the serial number to migrate a line. Nobody ever asks for it.

I think there's worse that can be done with the serial number.
As I understand it, the serial number is enough info for me to cut my neighbours fibre, clone their ONT and authenticate as them.
Unless there's some way Openreach can tell which CBT port each fibre is on.
If someone knows otherwise I'd love to hear the way it's done.

I might ask 1 of my neighbours on the same PON to borrow their ONT to test. Most are on Talktalk or BT who have generic login details.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

I think there's worse that can be done with the serial number.
As I understand it, the serial number is enough info for me to cut my neighbours fibre, clone their ONT and authenticate as them.
Unless there's some way Openreach can tell which CBT port each fibre is on.
If someone knows otherwise I'd love to hear the way it's done.

I might ask 1 of my neighbours on the same PON to borrow their ONT to test. Most are on Talktalk or BT who have generic login details.

You'd connect just fine as long as you're on the same OLT port. No practical way for OR to know: passive network innit.

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

I think there's worse that can be done with the serial number.
As I understand it, the serial number is enough info for me to cut my neighbours fibre, clone their ONT and authenticate as them.
Unless there's some way Openreach can tell which CBT port each fibre is on.
If someone knows otherwise I'd love to hear the way it's done.

I might ask 1 of my neighbours on the same PON to borrow their ONT to test. Most are on Talktalk or BT who have generic login details.

You'd connect just fine as long as you're on the same OLT port. No practical way for OR to know: passive network innit.

Exactly what I thought. Not the best idea to put the entire Openreach ONT serial number database public facing then.
It's good for confirming you have the correct ONT, but a partial serial number being shown would be enough, or a challenge asking you to enter part of the serial 1st.

I was hoping it was yourself answering that. Cheers Mr T 👍🏻

In reply to a post by jamestbb:

Thanks, A&A show both services:

https://i.imgur.com/kRN9QbR.png

Cost prohibitive I'm afraid, though.

I'd suggest Aquiss. They have competent staff, and they do check the ONT serial number before migration. Cost is comparable to other services, and benefits from initial 6 month half-price discount, 12 month contract, no price rises, static IPv4 and IPv6.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

You don't even need to know the serial number to migrate a line. Nobody ever asks for it.

If only that was true. We have asked for the ONT details and validated them accordingly for the best part of 3 years. For us this is an important step that all providers should be performing as standard.

How does this apply in real world practice. 6% of orders coming in to us have invalid/wrong details, that we get updated (this especially applies with early FTTP build areas). We also seeing circa 10 attempts each month from other providers who attempt to slam our FTTP circuits, where they simply have not checked and presumed they have matches.

For us, we have been saying that an auth transfer code needs reintroducing to the industry. The MAC approach worked well, so does a PAC with mobiles and EPP codes with domains. It shows a valid handshake. For us checking the ONT matches with a address gives us this valid handshake, but more importantly shows that we are applying a duty of care to our customers from the outset.

What actually happens when Openreach come to perform an FTTP service migration? Does any engineer even perform this, or is it purely a system automation?

How will the system decide, which of the two active FTTP services I have at my address, to migrate the service against, if no line ID is specified?

Thanks

In reply to a post by jamestbb:

What actually happens when Openreach come to perform an FTTP service migration? Does any engineer even perform this, or is it purely a system automation?

System automation. No visit required. The path carrying traffic from your ONT is redirected to your new ISP, at the head-end exchange.

In reply to a post by jamestbb:

How will the system decide, which of the two active FTTP services I have at my address, to migrate the service against, if no line ID is specified?

One of them will be selected early in the process. At worst, they'll pick one at random. That's why you want to choose an ISP who checks the ONT ID (as Aquiss explained above).

The "losing" ISP on the selected line will get notification from Openreach that the service will be disconnected on a given date. They may notify you when this happens (maybe with a "please don't leave us!" type of letter), but often this doesn't happen.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

[...]
The "losing" ISP on the selected line will get notification from Openreach that the service will be disconnected on a given date. They may notify you when this happens (maybe with a "please don't leave us!" type of letter), but often this doesn't happen.

Given this contact from a 'losing' provider is a crucial check against being slammed, they really should be doing this - do some really fail on this front?

In reply to a post by binary:

Given this contact from a 'losing' provider is a crucial check against being slammed, they really should be doing this - do some really fail on this front?

Yes, personal experience from 2019: I was on Plusnet FTTC, and got slammed by Talktalk.

I received a letter and a package a few days before, but these were both addressed to someone else so I just returned them unopened. It turns out that the package was likely the router from Talktalk.

Plusnet neither wrote to me, nor E-mailed me, about the impending disconnection.

It took about 3 weeks to resolve. I lost all my Plusnet referrals, I lost my account name (I had to pick a new one), and I lost my old static IP address (they assigned me a new one). I also lost my phone number, but fortunately Plusnet were able to retrieve it.

I agree with Aquiss: the MAC code system should be re-introduced. I guess the reason it was removed was because it was causing friction in migrations, e.g. if your existing ISP had a terrible call centre you could spend hours on the phone trying to get a MAC.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I agree with Aquiss: the MAC code system should be re-introduced. I guess the reason it was removed was because it was causing friction in migrations, e.g. if your existing ISP had a terrible call centre you could spend hours on the phone trying to get a MAC.

How different is the internet world that a similar automated system to the mobile phone PAC process can't be introduced?

Make it a condition of offering a consumer communication service that the online portal has a big "Cancel my services" button, if Ofcom fancied doing their job this is a solvable problem.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

How different is the internet world that a similar automated system to the mobile phone PAC process can't be introduced?

In principle it's doable, but it means every ISP would have to build one of these systems.

The only secure way would be to login to your ISP's account management portal to request a MAC code (and people do tend to forget their credentials for those).

With PAC codes, the network has reasonable confidence that the phone number the SMS came from is likely to be valid, as long as the message originated from within the operator's network. For an ISP the nearest equivalent would be the IP address, and the user on that address may change over time, or even be non-unique in the case of ISPs that use CGNAT.

This seems of interest
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2024/02/ofcom-...

Just to confirm, I ordered with Aquiss and the correct line I chose was migrated. All good

In reply to a post by jamestbb:

Just to confirm, I ordered with Aquiss and the correct line I chose was migrated. All good

Congrats ........

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Exactly what I thought. Not the best idea to put the entire Openreach ONT serial number database public facing then.
It's good for confirming you have the correct ONT, but a partial serial number being shown would be enough, or a challenge asking you to enter part of the serial 1st.

I was hoping it was yourself answering that. Cheers Mr T 👍🏻

Pleasure, John. Sorry for slow response, missed this!