FTTP is finally here, which one should I choose for latency?

Hi, FTTP (Openreach) has just been rolled out to my area (East Midlands, Nottinghamshire), and I'm looking to upgrade (broadband only), I'm currently using Zen FTTC.

I only care about having the most stable connection with the lowest possible latency to Frankfurt/Amsterdam servers (ping 185.60.112.157)

These are my options (Full Fibre 900):

Zen
£55, no price increase
18 month contract
450 Mbps min
Static IP

Aquiss
£41.25, no price increase
12 month contract
Static IP

TalkTalk
£47.25, no price increase
24 month contract
725 Mbps min.
2 Amazon eero pro 6 routers that I can possibly sell for £110 total
Dynamic IP

Plusnet
£43.99, price increases 31st March
24 month contract
500 Mbps min.
Paid static IP

BT
£44.99, price increases 31st March
24 month contract
700 Mbps min.
Dynamic IP

Sky
£44, price may increase
18 month contract
600 Mbps min.
Dynamic IP

Vodafone
£38, increases each April
24 month contract
455 Mbps min.
Dynamic IP

Idnet
£57, no price increase
12 month contract
500 Mbps min.
Static IP

EE
£44.99, price increases 31st March
24 month contract
700 Mbps min.
Dynamic IP

Does it matter how many Public Peering Exchange Points (IXPs) and Interconnection Facilities (ICFs) ISP has in terms of latency? BT and TalkTalk seem to have the most of both according to PeerDB.

If IXPs and ICFs do not matter, Aquiss seems to be the best option in terms of price/contract time, should I just go with that (or Zen if they can match the price)?

Edited by sven55 (Tue 13-Feb-24 20:15:46)

In reply to a post by sven55:

Aquiss seems to be the best option in terms of price/contract time

That price is the 'equivalent' of £55 a month but 50% off for the first 6. After a year its £55. I prefer to stop longer but you could jump after 12 months. AFAIK Zen won't do a deal, the price they quote is the price everyone gets.
I've been looking too and some of your prices (BT) are cheaper than I've seen. Maybe more regional pricing?

You say "dynamic IP" but are these dynamic, public IP addresses (e.g. BT) or some sort of CGNAT service, where your router will never see a public IPv4 address?

I would certainly choose something that does not use CGNAT, even if you don't mind a dynamic IP address.

In reply to a post by sven55:

Does it matter how many Public Peering Exchange Points (IXPs) and Interconnection Facilities (ICFs) ISP has in terms of latency?

No. Even if a small ISP just gets its connectivity from one or two upstream ISPs (autonomous systems = ASes) then it will use the peering of those.

In reply to a post by sven55:

If IXPs and ICFs do not matter, Aquiss seems to be the best option in terms of price/contract time

I'm on Aquiss and very happy with them. Remember that the BT/Plusnet prices in increase in April by 7.9%, and then increase again the following April, by which time they're almost the same.

I say this to everyone: if you are genuinely cost sensitive, to the point where £5 or £10 per month factors into your purchasing decision, then consider whether you really need a gigabit, and whether in fact you'd be fine with 500M or 300M. Or why not buy 500M and see how you get on?

300M will download 1.5GB in 40 seconds; 900M reduces this to 13 seconds. Is it worth the extra? In any case, wifi is usually the bottleneck once you go much over 300M.

Having 110M upload instead of 50M would be nice, but in practice it doesn't make much difference to me whether it takes 3 minutes or 7 minutes to upload a 2.5GB file. Either way I still have to do something else while it happens.

In short, I would take 300M from Aquiss over 900M from BT any day of the week. I get my static IPv4 and IPv6, and I get responsive UK-based support should I need it.

In reply to a post by daern:

You say "dynamic IP" but are these dynamic, public IP addresses (e.g. BT) or some sort of CGNAT service, where your router will never see a public IPv4 address?

I would certainly choose something that does not use CGNAT, even if you don't mind a dynamic IP address.

None of the providers quoted use CGNAT on their fixed line broadband.

I can give you personal experience of three on your list PlusNet, TT and VF, and if price is an issue PN is the best of the three.

Like you I've been looking around for a new ISP as issue with current one and I've opted for Sky but if I knew what I know now, on that list, I would have gone with Aquiss, dealing I have had with them, highly impressed.

Aquiss - wired network, to the IP address in question:
PING 185.60.112.157 (185.60.112.157) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=1 ttl=243 time=22.9 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=2 ttl=243 time=21.8 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=3 ttl=243 time=22.0 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=4 ttl=243 time=21.6 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=5 ttl=243 time=21.6 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=6 ttl=243 time=21.2 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=7 ttl=243 time=22.0 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=8 ttl=243 time=21.9 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=9 ttl=243 time=22.0 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=10 ttl=243 time=21.7 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=11 ttl=243 time=21.9 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=12 ttl=243 time=21.9 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=13 ttl=243 time=21.8 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=14 ttl=243 time=21.6 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=15 ttl=243 time=21.3 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=16 ttl=243 time=21.7 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=17 ttl=243 time=21.7 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=18 ttl=243 time=21.7 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=19 ttl=243 time=21.5 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=20 ttl=243 time=21.6 ms

I am about 60km from Edinburgh and well pleased with Aquiss.

For comparison, ping across my network:
PING 10.40.41.48 (10.40.41.48) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.756 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=2 ttl=64 time=0.595 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=3 ttl=64 time=0.579 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=4 ttl=64 time=1.06 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=5 ttl=64 time=0.645 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=6 ttl=64 time=0.647 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=7 ttl=64 time=1.15 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=8 ttl=64 time=0.608 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=9 ttl=64 time=0.648 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=10 ttl=64 time=0.313 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=11 ttl=64 time=1.08 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=12 ttl=64 time=0.607 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=13 ttl=64 time=0.630 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=14 ttl=64 time=0.649 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=15 ttl=64 time=0.304 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=16 ttl=64 time=0.605 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=17 ttl=64 time=0.613 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=18 ttl=64 time=0.614 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=19 ttl=64 time=1.17 ms
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=20 ttl=64 time=0.621 ms

Check out Uno. https://www.uno.uk/

Very highly rated ISP. FTTP products available on BT Openreach and Vodafone LLU.

Static IP's, excellent customer service.

Edited by wolvesmad (Wed 14-Feb-24 15:15:05)

In reply to a post by wolvesmad:

Check out Uno. https://www.uno.uk/

Very highly rated ISP. FTTP products available on BT Openreach and Vodafone LLU.

Static IP's, excellent customer service.

Careful of their prices, they are another ISP who show plus VAT pricing on their site. You also need phone number to get a price so if you don't have...

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

In reply to a post by sven55:

Aquiss seems to be the best option in terms of price/contract time

That price is the 'equivalent' of £55 a month but 50% off for the first 6. After a year its £55. I prefer to stop longer but you could jump after 12 months. AFAIK Zen won't do a deal, the price they quote is the price everyone gets.
I've been looking too and some of your prices (BT) are cheaper than I've seen. Maybe more regional pricing?

They won't match the price, but they said I could get 2 months for free.

In reply to a post by daern:

You say "dynamic IP" but are these dynamic, public IP addresses (e.g. BT) or some sort of CGNAT service, where your router will never see a public IPv4 address?

I would certainly choose something that does not use CGNAT, even if you don't mind a dynamic IP address.

I have no clue if they use CGNAT.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I'm on Aquiss and very happy with them. Remember that the BT/Plusnet prices in increase in April by 7.9%, and then increase again the following April, by which time they're almost the same.

I say this to everyone: if you are genuinely cost sensitive, to the point where £5 or £10 per month factors into your purchasing decision, then consider whether you really need a gigabit, and whether in fact you'd be fine with 500M or 300M. Or why not buy 500M and see how you get on?

300M will download 1.5GB in 40 seconds; 900M reduces this to 13 seconds. Is it worth the extra? In any case, wifi is usually the bottleneck once you go much over 300M.

Having 110M upload instead of 50M would be nice, but in practice it doesn't make much difference to me whether it takes 3 minutes or 7 minutes to upload a 2.5GB file. Either way I still have to do something else while it happens.

In short, I would take 300M from Aquiss over 900M from BT any day of the week. I get my static IPv4 and IPv6, and I get responsive UK-based support should I need it.

I'm just trying to save anything I can if it's possible to do it without hurting the quality.

In reply to a post by DFScale:

Aquiss - wired network, to the IP address in question:
PING 185.60.112.157 (185.60.112.157) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=1 ttl=243 time=22.9 ms


I am about 60km from Edinburgh and well pleased with Aquiss.

For comparison, ping across my network:
PING 10.40.41.48 (10.40.41.48) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from 10.40.41.48: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.756 ms

This seems pretty good considering it's from Edinburgh, I'm getting the exact same numbers at my place.

Thanks for the replies, I'll be going with Aquiss next month.

Hey there.

Im with BT FTTP 900 Dynamic IP which I can see on my PPPOE interface /32, I am located in Clevedon (North Somerset) and below is the ping to that IP:

PING 185.60.112.157 (185.60.112.157) 56(84) bytes of data.

64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=1 ttl=246 time=13.3 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=2 ttl=246 time=14.0 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=3 ttl=246 time=13.1 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=5 ttl=246 time=13.1 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=6 ttl=246 time=13.3 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=7 ttl=246 time=13.7 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=8 ttl=246 time=14.1 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=9 ttl=246 time=13.0 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=10 ttl=246 time=13.5 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=11 ttl=246 time=13.5 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=12 ttl=246 time=14.1 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=13 ttl=246 time=13.1 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=14 ttl=246 time=13.7 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=15 ttl=246 time=13.7 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=16 ttl=246 time=14.0 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=17 ttl=246 time=13.1 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=18 ttl=246 time=13.5 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=19 ttl=246 time=13.9 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=20 ttl=246 time=14.3 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=21 ttl=246 time=13.2 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=22 ttl=246 time=13.5 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=23 ttl=246 time=13.6 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=24 ttl=246 time=14.0 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=25 ttl=246 time=13.3 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=26 ttl=246 time=13.4 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=27 ttl=246 time=13.6 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=28 ttl=246 time=14.2 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=29 ttl=246 time=13.3 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=30 ttl=246 time=13.6 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=31 ttl=246 time=13.6 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=32 ttl=246 time=14.0 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=33 ttl=246 time=13.3 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=34 ttl=246 time=13.3 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=35 ttl=246 time=13.7 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=36 ttl=246 time=14.1 ms
^C --- 185.60.112.157 ping statistics --- 36 packets transmitted, 35 received, 2% packet loss, time 35162ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 13.027/13.641/14.367/0.368 ms

Performed ping directly from my routers CLI, Router is Ubiquity ER-X.

Customer Service is great, its good to always speak to someone onshore, I dont mean any disrespect but sometimes context is so important when you need support. They also have a solid complaints process should you ever get down that route for some reason, hopefully not.

I was with Vodafone but their customer service is so bad I ended within my 14 day cooling off period, luckily I hadnt cancelled my cable yet with Virgin so went back to that, firstly I went with Vodafone because they were the cheapest, probably because their CS is so cheap.

A thing to mention is that if you are going from FTTC to FTTP the likelyhood is Openreach will remove your copper phone line, if for whatever reason their is some issue with the fibre you will then be offline. You get compensated at 5 pounds a day. Now this happened to me but I had my backup cable.

When my FTTP was supposed to go live there was some light issue right away, the Openreach Fibre Network had not been there long and is brand new to my town, all cables are above head so I could also see that no one else was connected to the CBT's yet so I was the first at least in my street and two next to me. 5 whole weeks after the install I finally went live once OR fixed the 'light issue'. I only give this word of caution because if it is 'finally here' you may find that you suffer the same fate as me. It turned out that as much as they had most of the infrastructure work they hadnt done one bit somewhere and I had to wait for a high up engineer to solve it. I expect the field team installers may have been under alot of pressure to run so much in such and such time.

I dont think Openreach allow it but if you can keep your copper service still I would until you are sure the FTTP goes live.

Another question is also if you want to use your own 3rd Party Router, this is fairly straight forward with BT as they use a PPPOE interface and the username and password are the same for every customer. Vodafone are known however for using PPPOE but giving out the wrong credentials, I would avoid Vodafone based on my experience, sure its cheap but it comes with compromises. Each time I wanted to talk to them it took without fail 30 minutes to get to the right person who wasnt helpful anyway.

Sky use DHCPv6-PD for their authentication which as far as I know my router supports but I couldnt get my head around it, besides one of the things I wanted was BT TV because their sport packages if you catch them at the right time are really reasonable, Sky however not so reasonable.

Sky, Vodafone and BT were the only ones I dealt with so im not sure on the others and what auth they use.

With my BT Package I also went for the BT EE TV Box Pro which I use in internet only mode which means if you are not using BT's Hub then you need to configure an IGMP proxy.

I did a write up on the config on an ER-X in conjunction with BT FTTP over here:

https://community.ui.com/questions/BT-FTTP-900Mbps-a...

You may find it useful if you are considering using your own router, heres also a line to my broadband monitor from the Think Broadband thingy:

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/...

Hope this helps.

In reply to a post by naylor2006:

I was with Vodafone but their customer service is so bad I ended within my 14 day cooling off period, luckily I hadnt cancelled my cable yet with Virgin so went back to that, firstly I went with Vodafone because they were the cheapest, probably because their CS is so cheap.

I can second this. My Voda FTTC broadband service itself is actually pretty good - reliable and, given the crummy speeds I get, I very rarely see slow-downs. I also get a free static IPv4 address and as it's also been extremely stable, I've only had one significant issue that required me to speak to support...

...but oh, gods. That experience was so mind-numbingly bad that I dread having any future issue. The people are actively idiotic and the process is so dreadful as to rank very highly amongst my worst technical C/S experiences ever. And I've worked in IT service delivery for 25 years, so I've seen some horrors! Their supplied router is also a sack of spanners. Mine has been aggressively chucked to the bag of the cupboard and replaced with an OPNSense solution + VDSL modem, which is far better.

Truly appalling, so anyone should think carefully before using Vodafone, even if they are cheap.

In reply to a post by naylor2006:

I dont think Openreach allow it but if you can keep your copper service still I would until you are sure the FTTP goes live.

I was told that an OR FTTC -> FTTP conversion would remove the copper, but an alt-net provision (looks like YouFibre will be first to my house later this year) would leave the OR copper in place, which is useful to give some service overlap and to allow for the new service not working first time.

In reply to a post by naylor2006:

Another question is also if you want to use your own 3rd Party Router, this is fairly straight forward with BT as they use a PPPOE interface and the username and password are the same for every customer. Vodafone are known however for using PPPOE but giving out the wrong credentials, I would avoid Vodafone based on my experience, sure its cheap but it comes with compromises. Each time I wanted to talk to them it took without fail 30 minutes to get to the right person who wasnt helpful anyway.

I must have been lucky, but got the credentials from Vodafone first time. They are full of "0" and "O" as well as "1" and "I" so easily confused, but my shift to a third-party router was easy enough. Mine is VDSL, so presentation is a phoneline and I have to use an old Openreach Huawei hg612 to get Ethernet presentation, but as you have FTTP you would not have had this issue. Is their FTTP service also using PPPoE?

Yep, I totally agree with you Daern.

It was the worst CS experience ive ever had and Ive been with Virgin since 2015 until late last year....The worst thing is the scripts, after speaking to them many times you will end up seeing the same things which is infuriating. I couldnt bear the thought of having any follow up issues.

Yeah Openreach wont leave the Copper there because they generally want to discontinued it so whilst putting in FTTP they are saving a future job, however there is no reason why you cant keep it in my opinion, provided you arent going with the same provider as you were for copper. The hookups are completely different, the FTTP goes direct all the way to the exchange into some rack and the FTTC goes off to a cab and then back via its only route to the Exchange I think, I could be wrong. I couldnt even get FTTC so my copper was just ADSL but with Virgin Cable there its was the only option.

Truespeed are in my area too and I wanted to go with them because its 600/600 rather than 900/110 with OR, but unfortunately for me our underground passive ways are blocked between the end of my road and my telegraph pole and there werent going to dig it up. I was gutted but then OR came down and just went above ground with their fibre between the poles. But yeah, I was lucky to have an alternative service because if the install is even delayed for a day that can be a right nightmare for some folks.

If I was using the copper I would have been cut off on the 19th of December and it was like the 25th of Jan I think before the FTTP actually was solved Chrismas without internet in an area with bad mobile service, that would have been so bad, but I still got the 120 quid plus compensation which was nice.

BT are using PPPOE for their authentication, if you want to see the config check out the link in my post. PPPOE is also there for Vodafone and is fine once you get the right credentials, there are some important settings to get right however but I was able to use info out there already. So my WAN interface on my Edge Router just connects directly to the ONT, the BT Hub is in the loft incase I need any troubleshooting.

Virgin did give me a static IP which was nice but in any case on the Edge Router you can set up dynamic DNS directly there as a service to talk to Cloudflare and I just bought a domain for like 5 quid a year for stuff like my VPN.

In reply to a post by naylor2006:

A thing to mention is that if you are going from FTTC to FTTP the likelyhood is Openreach will remove your copper phone line, if for whatever reason their is some issue with the fibre you will then be offline.

This should not be happening.

FTTP goes in as dedicated order and unless the provider as asked for plant recovery on the copper (rare), it should be left untouched.

You do get engineers who will take them down the cable down, if asked, but you will remain charged by your provider, as that does not trigger a cease on the actual line asset.

It should not be happening I agree but I've only seen it happen so far with various installs. I was told by BT it will happen, Openreach told me when they were at my property it will happen, I didnt have any need to argue though because I had the existing Cable with Virgin, made no difference what happened with the copper.

Ive seen so many posts of people going crazy on ISP forums that their FTTP order did not go live therefore leaving them without service after the copper was removed.

I doesnt make alot of sense though when you consider someone has copper with plusnet then is going with BT for FTTP, why cant they have both services for a graceful handover...its just not what I have seen.

Ofcom have that compensation scheme that some ISP's have signed up to for failed installs, surely part of that is to compensate people who are suddenly cut off?

You can have both services. But, you would have to order FTTP as a new provide rather than a migration. A new provide would generally have an installation cost which a migration often may not. Also, you would have to pay for the FTTC and the FTTP for as long as both are running. If you don't want to pay for 2 services then it is a migration and even if the copper is not removed the service would be stopped once the FTTP has been put in (and sometimes even if the FTTP is not working).

If it is a migration then removing the copper in many cases would make no difference to future provision as once the service is stopped you likely won't be able to order a copper service again anyway as FTTP is available.

In reply to a post by ian72:

You can have both services. But, you would have to order FTTP as a new provide rather than a migration. A new provide would generally have an installation cost which a migration often may not. Also, you would have to pay for the FTTC and the FTTP for as long as both are running. If you don't want to pay for 2 services then it is a migration and even if the copper is not removed the service would be stopped once the FTTP has been put in (and sometimes even if the FTTP is not working).

If it is a migration then removing the copper in many cases would make no difference to future provision as once the service is stopped you likely won't be able to order a copper service again anyway as FTTP is available.

Yeah that all makes sense, if a customer has BT FTTC and upgrades to BT FTTP then generally its acceptable to remove one and replace with the other bringing in some risk if the FTTP has a fault on it.

Of course you would need to pay for two services, in my case I was paying for Virgin still but that infra is completely separate to Openreach so the two would never effect each other.

None the less though I have seen many examples of family and friends where they are with one provider for copper and gone for a new provider for FTTP, Openreach removed the copper assuming responsibility being with you as the customer to ensure you cancel the old service.

OR in some cases also use the existing copper in order to pull through the new fibre link, ive seen mixed reports on forums, what I do remember is that BT told me very specifically that the Copper would be removed as part of the install and I had no existing service with BT on that copper. The OR engineers told me almost as soon as they arrived they would be removing it.

The wider context here is that people need to know they can keep it if they are moving to a different provider. I would almost recommend now if you are with one copper provider try and find an FTTP provider who is different, not always as easy if the deals are favorable to stay and you are getting a free upgrade.

When I see posts about how folks with new FTTP installs that dont go live due to some fault and they spend weeks without internet I really feel for them, sure we can live without the internet but it has become a necessity for alot of people. So going back to my advice to the OP, given that they are in a newly provided area I would implore them to keep the copper as a backup. I was the first in my street to get FTTP and it took another 5 weeks or so after the go live date for OR to solve whatever was missed when they installed the connecting infra. When my internet went live BT ordered me IPTV but even this didnt work straight away because multicast was not enable somewhere along the route, OR's notes werent clear but I would always be cautious with brand new infra like this and recommend keeping the backup copper.

The only way to keep both services is to buy a new line and pay for both. If you do a migration then the old copper service will cease (although in some cases there may be a small overlap) and once it is ceased it is likely you would not be able to order copper again and so the copper cable is redundant.

My guess is that in a very very high percentage of cases people migrate rather than getting a second line when putting in FTTP where FTTC was live. If it is all on OpenReach then a migration will always result in the copper being replaced by the FTTP either same day or soon after (sometimes even before the FTTP has even been installed if moving between ISPs on the OpenReach network).

If the OP is going to keep copper as a backup then they will need to order FTTP as a new provide, pay the new provide installation and pay for both the FTTC and FTTP services. Considering the small percentage of cases where the FTTP is an issue this is generally the most cost effective option for people unless their Internet is VERY critical. It also depends on whether someone has any alternative backup - I get a decent 4G signal and can tether to mobile if I have an outage and it works well enough for a while (not sure I would do 2 weeks on it but even that could be possible for the essential services).

In reply to a post by ian72:

you would have to order FTTP as a new provide rather than a migration.

Technically incorrect. You are not "migrating" from FTTC to FTTP. They are handled as 2 different orders (one ceased, one provisioned)

But generally ISPs would consider it to be a migration? When I sign up to FTTP at a new ISP they inform my old ISP that the old FTTC is to be cancelled as part of the "migration". From a user perspective it doesn't appear much different to doing FTTC to FTTC except someone needs to physically turn up and install the fibre.

You don't put your existing phone number in... Thus the isp will treat it as a new provide

In reply to a post by ian72:

But generally ISPs would consider it to be a migration? When I sign up to FTTP at a new ISP they inform my old ISP that the old FTTC is to be cancelled as part of the "migration".

Nope, no instruction to the old provider will take place, if FTTP is being installed and you currently a ADSL/FTTC/SoGEA service. That instruction needs to come from you directly.

In reply to a post by Taras:

You don't put your existing phone number in... Thus the isp will treat it as a new provide

So how does a migration work if you don't have a phone number which is the case for a growing number of people?

In reply to a post by ian72:

Considering the small percentage of cases where the FTTP is an issue this is generally the most cost effective option for people unless their Internet is VERY critical. It also depends on whether someone has any alternative backup - I get a decent 4G signal and can tether to mobile if I have an outage and it works well enough for a while (not sure I would do 2 weeks on it but even that could be possible for the essential services).

For me it would have been a disaster, 5 plus weeks without internet and barely any mobile service at all, right bang across Christmas also, both my wife and I spend some days working at home as well. Of course it is a small percentage but if the rest of my street already had FTTP provisioned Id have felt more confident. My wife was keen for us to cancel Virgin the same month as the FTTP install, instincts told me no way, FTTP is new in our town and I had no one within a neighborhood radius of me that had already ordered. So not only would all the fibre links be new the equipment within the exchange also, along with other backend connectivity im sure. Lots of things could go wrong I thought and something did.

If the OP's neighbours already have FTTP and its all good with Openreach then they can feel more confident. Im just slightly touchy after my experience and that he said 'FTTP is finally here', suggesting the work has just been installed.

Im going to guess that all the problems that were solved on my line getting up and running 'should' have pointed out to OR some other issues, if everyone else in my street has light issues coming from the same CBT that would be pretty rubbish.

I signed up without a phone number and it is a 'New Provision' not a migration, as I was using a completely different wholesale service before in Virgin, BT still told me the copper would go and OR told me on the day it would go. I didnt ask for this but I didnt dispute it as it wasnt a lifeline to me, but if OR are turning up and just telling people that 9 times out of 10 they will just accept that.

My copper wasnt even FTTC, it was just plain ADSL, whether that makes a difference or not.

BT seems to work fine with a post code alone, sky on the other worked fine and even though i said i don't won't a phone line it still said

Your Broadband Setup
We need a bit more information to set you up with Sky Broadband
Emergency Calls

In line with the approach taken by all UK providers, your phone service will use the internet to make and receive calls. This means a power cut or broadband outage would stop your landline phone working, so we need to check this product is suitable for you.

Please select 'yes' to confirm both the below are true:

You have a mobile phone you can use to call emergency services
You don't have a connected social or care alarm

Hopefully the owner of the house won't get bombarded with fttp leaflets 😂🙈

In reply to a post by Taras:

Hopefully the owner of the house won't get bombarded with fttp leaflets 😂🙈

Funny you say this, Openreach completed the infra work September 28th 2023 but BT Wholesale didnt update their checkers till late Jan 2024, I was sent 3 leaflets about ordering FTTP because it was on my doorstep but every time I checked with them it was just showing ADSL for my postcode. Other providers, sky and so on were all showing FTTP products but they hadnt sent me anything.

In reply to a post by aquiss:

...no instruction to the old provider will take place, if FTTP is being installed and you currently a ADSL/FTTC/SoGEA service. That instruction needs to come from you directly.

You made it very clear that would be the case when I ordered FTTP from you as a new provision. The installer used the same u/g duct as the copper for the fibre and did not disturb the active copper ADSL/PSTN connection (ADSL was with another provider and PSTN was/is with you.) Maintaining an active copper line was important to me at the time, after approx one month I ceased the ADSL.

I guess there could be confusion regarding the unwanted removal of the copper line if one ordered FTTP from the same provider who is currently supplying xDSL and it was inadvertently wrongly treated as a "migration" by either both or one of the parties rather than a new provision?

Edited by 4M2 (Fri 16-Feb-24 17:02:38)

I'm with UnchainedISP, in Norfolk, FTTP1000 via Openreach. You can see my ping results to your IP and ThinkBroadband. I'd recommend them, they've been rock solid for me. I came from AAISP and they're substantially less expensive, with no usage cap, and great performance and personal service.

root@OPNsense:~ # ping -c 10 185.60.112.157
PING 185.60.112.157 (185.60.112.157): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=0 ttl=248 time=15.632 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=1 ttl=248 time=15.429 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=2 ttl=248 time=15.431 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=3 ttl=248 time=15.658 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=4 ttl=248 time=15.101 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=5 ttl=248 time=15.114 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=6 ttl=248 time=15.467 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=7 ttl=248 time=15.694 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=8 ttl=248 time=15.132 ms
64 bytes from 185.60.112.157: icmp_seq=9 ttl=248 time=15.071 ms

--- 185.60.112.157 ping statistics ---
10 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 15.071/15.373/15.694/0.236 ms

root@OPNsense:~ # ping -c 10 pingbox2.thinkbroadband.com
PING pingbox2.thinkbroadband.com (80.249.99.171): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 80.249.99.171: icmp_seq=0 ttl=58 time=8.733 ms
64 bytes from 80.249.99.171: icmp_seq=1 ttl=58 time=8.256 ms
64 bytes from 80.249.99.171: icmp_seq=2 ttl=58 time=8.672 ms
64 bytes from 80.249.99.171: icmp_seq=3 ttl=58 time=8.784 ms
64 bytes from 80.249.99.171: icmp_seq=4 ttl=58 time=7.985 ms
64 bytes from 80.249.99.171: icmp_seq=5 ttl=58 time=7.725 ms
64 bytes from 80.249.99.171: icmp_seq=6 ttl=58 time=7.739 ms
64 bytes from 80.249.99.171: icmp_seq=7 ttl=58 time=7.981 ms
64 bytes from 80.249.99.171: icmp_seq=8 ttl=58 time=8.311 ms
64 bytes from 80.249.99.171: icmp_seq=9 ttl=58 time=8.435 ms

--- pingbox2.thinkbroadband.com ping statistics ---
10 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 7.725/8.262/8.784/0.376 ms

See the following single thread Iperf3 results on Sunday morning to Amsterdam:

root@OPNsense:~ # iperf3 -c ams.speedtest.clouvider.net -R -p 5203
Connecting to host ams.speedtest.clouvider.net, port 5203
Reverse mode, remote host ams.speedtest.clouvider.net is sending
[ 5] local 185.250.11.93 port 2202 connected to 194.127.172.176 port 5203
[ ID] Interval Transfer Bitrate
[ 5] 0.00-1.00 sec 99.5 MBytes 834 Mbits/sec
[ 5] 1.00-2.00 sec 110 MBytes 925 Mbits/sec
[ 5] 2.00-3.00 sec 110 MBytes 925 Mbits/sec
[ 5] 3.00-4.00 sec 110 MBytes 926 Mbits/sec
[ 5] 4.00-5.04 sec 114 MBytes 925 Mbits/sec
[ 5] 5.04-6.04 sec 111 MBytes 925 Mbits/sec
[ 5] 6.04-7.00 sec 106 MBytes 926 Mbits/sec
[ 5] 7.00-8.03 sec 113 MBytes 925 Mbits/sec
[ 5] 8.03-9.02 sec 110 MBytes 925 Mbits/sec
[ 5] 9.02-10.00 sec 106 MBytes 907 Mbits/sec
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[ ID] Interval Transfer Bitrate Retr
[ 5] 0.00-10.02 sec 1.07 GBytes 915 Mbits/sec 0 sender
[ 5] 0.00-10.00 sec 1.06 GBytes 914 Mbits/sec receiver

iperf Done.

Slightly different, commercial premises, situation, but when FTTP became available to us, we ordered service (from IDNet) who were already providing a DSL line. They simply checked whether we wanted the DSL discontinued, which we did not. That decision was wise, since OR Civils issues, followed by mis-configuration caused the provision to take 10 months. We eventually discontinued the IDNet DSL, as we had DSL from another provider at the site. I doubt that the OR techs. would have been enthusiastic to remove the copper, since we have a 25 pair DP on site and DIG cable.

So, in summary, it's essential to be clear with supplier whether you want a migration, with the risk of a gap in service, or a new service added. There is a saying "don't let go of both ends of the rope" which seems apt.

Indeed, having heard some horror stories of the analogue wires being pulled out and no working fibre left in their place, it seems if you care about connectivity the only route that makes sense is to order a new FTTP service, and then sort out the copper later. I ordered a new FTTP service, and then migrated my phone number to AAISP VOIP once it had been up a couple of months, which ceased the copper.

In reply to a post by jimbof:

Indeed, having heard some horror stories of the analogue wires being pulled out and no working fibre left in their place, it seems if you care about connectivity the only route that makes sense is to order a new FTTP service, and then sort out the copper later. I ordered a new FTTP service, and then migrated my phone number to AAISP VOIP once it had been up a couple of months, which ceased the copper.

Did you order the new FTTP broadband service from a different provider?

Yes, I did. It helped that Plusnet (who I was with) didn't offer FTTP at the time, so there wasn't really any choice in that.

i would stick with Zen 900 at £40 per month

Where do you get £40/mo for Zen from? In Openreach areas it's £55/mo for 900Mbps service, £40 only gets you 300Mbps.

At £55, I'd look elsewhere, as the cost isn't low enough to offset the potential for issues with their backhaul, quite a few of us have been burned by issues that Zen support seem to have no understanding of how to fix (or if they do understand them, they're not fessing up).

I got my connection with UnchainedISP (that I think you could class as offering a "boutique" personal service - one of the top-rated ISPs on ISPReview) for £55/mo with 12month contract.

The only upside for Zen I would say is that if you end up on their backhaul, and it doesn't cause you issues, it can potentially have lower latency. Here in Norwich Zen's backhaul on my Openreach line was at it's best 2-3ms lower latency into London than via Openreach + BTW backhaul. I don't know if this lower latency was peculiar to my location, or more generalised. But on the downside, it's random whether you end up going in via a Manchester or London based LNS, which can easily at 10ms to your latency!

In reply to a post by jimbof:

Where do you get £40/mo for Zen from? In Openreach areas it's £55/mo for 900Mbps service, £40 only gets you 300Mbps.

CityFibre 900/900, not OR

Edited by cjn (Mon 19-Feb-24 11:49:23)

That's what I'm seeing today on the Zen website £40 per month 900 MB

18-month contract
Our fastest router with WiFi 6
Guaranteed no in-contract price increases
Static IP Address
Download a 50GB game in 8 mins
https://www.zen.co.uk/broadband/cf/broadband-results

I logged into the Zen website and saw the £40 offer. However when I checked my postcode, it was £55.

There was a /cf/ in the URL of the £40 offer. Probably Community Fibre only.

Edited by Rhynchelma (Mon 19-Feb-24 15:28:35)

In reply to a post by Rhynchelma:

I logged into the Zen website and saw the £40 offer. However when I checked my postcode, it was £55.

There was a /cf/ in the URL of the £40 offer. Probably Community Fibre only.

Yes it depends on what connection is available for your address and on what Zen choose to offer.
Openreach £55, CityFibre £40. Both, I think, on an 18-month contract.

Only if you are in a Cityfibre area. The OP was asking about Openreach FTTP, the implication being they don't have the cheaper Cityfibre option.

Zen are doing a bit of a "bait and switch" with the headline £40, as the Cityfibre coverage is comparatively low.

Sorry for the confusion. They have just upgraded me for free 300mb £29 per month with free router which is what i already have, but they sent out a new one anyhow

Edited by NICK_ADSL_UK (Mon 19-Feb-24 19:38:08)

Update, got the FTTP installed, in-game latency dropped by around 8-10 ms

In reply to a post by sven55:

Update, got the FTTP installed, in-game latency dropped by around 8-10 ms

Did you change provider? FTTC is only 1-2ms higher latency compared to FTTP, on the same ISP with the same route used.
Such a big change in latency is due to a different ISP or different backhaul or routing (edit: or the line had interleaving applied).

Edited by j0hn83 (Tue 26-Mar-24 21:01:59)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by sven55:

Update, got the FTTP installed, in-game latency dropped by around 8-10 ms

Did you change provider? FTTC is only 1-2ms higher latency compared to FTTP, on the same ISP with the same route used.
Such a big change in latency is due to a different ISP or different backhaul or routing.

I went from like 30ms on same ISP on FTTC to around 8-10ms like the guy you're replying to. I don't think it's as simple as you say it is. Especially on longer lines.

In reply to a post by Xuse:

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by sven55:

Update, got the FTTP installed, in-game latency dropped by around 8-10 ms

Did you change provider? FTTC is only 1-2ms higher latency compared to FTTP, on the same ISP with the same route used.
Such a big change in latency is due to a different ISP or different backhaul or routing.

I went from like 30ms on same ISP on FTTC to around 8-10ms like the guy you're replying to. I don't think it's as simple as you say it is. Especially on longer lines.

The length of line is irrelevant.

If you're seeing a drop in latency like that then there's either different routing or the DSLAM was adding additional delay/latency in the form of interleaving. I should have mentioned this above.

Low interleaving adds exactly 8ms latency which ties in with the previous poster. I think high interleaving is double that at 16ms but that's pretty rare.
With ECI cabinets now having G.INP for many lines interleaving is becoming less common.

Edited by j0hn83 (Tue 26-Mar-24 21:05:50)

I don't see how line length is 'irrelevant' when it has a factor on the quality of the line, noise and one of the reasons you'd have interleaving in the first place...

He is correct, the length of the pair doesn’t affect latency. DLM may alter interleaving settings and the like, but this will be in response to erroring, not line length.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

the length of the pair doesn’t affect latency

The length of the line does affect the transmission rate though (bits per second), which in turn affects the time to transmit a packet. This would be especially noticeable in the upstream direction, where the transmission speeds are lower, and with larger packets.

e.g. at 10Mbps, transmitting a 1500 byte packet takes 1.2ms (=1500*8/10000000). At 1Mbps, transmitting the same packet takes 12ms.

However this effect is unlikely to be noticed with 56-byte ping packets, where it would add about half a millisecond at 1Mbps.

There is also signal processing on top of this, which adds some latency for DSL compared to optical. But as has already been said, interleaving is going to make a much bigger difference.

This is an interesting read regarding latency:

https://www.commscope.com/globalassets/digizuite/279...

Edited by perlen (Fri 29-Mar-24 12:34:08)