Completing FTTP builds

There have been a number of threads recently, here and on ispreview, that suggest that OR may part-build some exchange areas with FTTP, but never complete them, or at least not for a very long time. I've always tended to assume that OR will want to be rid of their copper network just as soon as they can kill it off, for all the well known reasons of not having to maintain 2 different networks, old and unreliable copper wiring and kit, shortage of parts, shortage of suitably skilled engineers etc.

I have an old Ofcom consultation document* on withdrawing copper services - I think it's still available here, but I haven't checked this is the same version I have. In it there's a proposed timetable (Figure 1) for a process, starting with the 75% complete stop sell on copper, then a 2-year period following an area being declared FTTP "complete" (which has a somewhat vague definition) before price controls on copper products are lifted. The clock to full copper switch off doesn't start ticking until this "complete" stage is achieved.

In this document (2.13) Ofcom say that part of the reasoning behind the proposed timetable is to incentivise OR to complete exchange areas, rather than build just enough to deter altnet competition in an area and then move on, leaving other customers stranded.

My recollection is that, apart from the 75% stop sell, this never made it into the final WFTMR for 2021-5, because it was thought no exchange areas (except Salisbury and Mildenhall) would get that far by end 2025. But it's been a while, and my memory is not what it was. Probably something like this will reappear in the next Ofcom review period.

So have I misunderstood, and is completing an exchange area not the incentive for OR that I've thought it to be?

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* Consultation: Copper retirement – conditions under which copper regulation could be completely withdrawn in ultrafast exchanges, Ofcom, 15/10/2020

Hi,

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

There have been a number of threads recently, here and on ispreview, that suggest that OR may part-build some exchange areas with FTTP, but never complete them, or at least not for a very long time. I've always tended to assume that OR will want to be rid of their copper network just as soon as they can kill it off, for all the well known reasons of not having to maintain 2 different networks, old and unreliable copper wiring and kit, shortage of parts, shortage of suitably skilled engineers etc.

I have an old Ofcom consultation document* on withdrawing copper services - I think it's still available here, but I haven't checked this is the same version I have. In it there's a proposed timetable (Figure 1) for a process, starting with the 75% complete stop sell on copper, then a 2-year period following an area being declared FTTP "complete" (which has a somewhat vague definition) before price controls on copper products are lifted. The clock to full copper switch off doesn't start ticking until this "complete" stage is achieved.

In this document (2.13) Ofcom say that part of the reasoning behind the proposed timetable is to incentivise OR to complete exchange areas, rather than build just enough to deter altnet competition in an area and then move on, leaving other customers stranded.

My recollection is that, apart from the 75% stop sell, this never made it into the final WFTMR for 2021-5, because it was thought no exchange areas (except Salisbury and Mildenhall) would get that far by end 2025. But it's been a while, and my memory is not what it was. Probably something like this will reappear in the next Ofcom review period.

So have I misunderstood, and is completing an exchange area not the incentive for OR that I've thought it to be?

--
* Consultation: Copper retirement – conditions under which copper regulation could be completely withdrawn in ultrafast exchanges, Ofcom, 15/10/2020

Look at https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/the-al... to see how the two different stop sell approaches are implemented.

BT's priorities with respect to service termination are as follows:
1. Get rid of the PSTN - should be gone by end of January 2027 (note, this is closure of the telephone service, not closure of all services over copper).
2. Close exchanges which don't have a long term future (i.e around 80% of them) - this will involve closure of all copper services, probably on an exchange by exchange basis. There is currently no fixed timescale for this other then a vague "close 100 exchanges by 2030" target (except for three pilot exchanges where there is a slightly more immediate, but not fixed, timescale).

Note that closing an exchange is dependant on getting rid the of PSTN lines served from that exchange (gone by Jan 2027) and getting rid of any ADSL served from that exchange (currently no fixed timescale) (in addition there may be other services like leased lines which also need to be moved elsewhere but I'm ignoring the non-consumer services here).

At the moment, closure of FTTC (VDSL and G.fast) service is not a priority for BT - FTTC is served from the exchanges which will not be closed. In reality, if an FTTC area is overbuilt with FTTP then FTTC closure will happen naturally over time in any event.

So have I misunderstood, and is completing an exchange area not the incentive for OR that I've thought it to be?

I suspect your misunderstanding may arise from a couple of issues …..

the copper network, mainly the D sides, will be around for a very long time yet. Regulation, and pressure from the ‘sell it cheap, pile it high’ end of the CP market have certainly added weight to the pressure. So this, and to some degree the E sides too will have to be maintained.

Exchange areas have such very varied network topography, that full completion is really a very distant dream…. what customers want is a long way from what others believe they do. Openreach have shareholders, and costs to pay, to throw their hats entirely in the ring for FTTP roll out would be an enormous financial burden, quite likely an un bearable one. Roll out where it can be done quickly and relatively easily, then wait … this is common sense, especially in the cowboy infested waters of altnets being allowed to cherry pick which bit of your network they choose sod up.

Add to all this, FTTP still isn’t perceived as the killer product it really ought to be. Go walk round Salisbury, what an enormous amount of homes and businesses clearly haven’t taken up FTTP and will just sit tight until forced to do so.

I think to achieve the figures without going bust will be a neigh on impossible task for Openreach.

Just my 5 penn’eth

In reply to a post by Dassa:

2. Close exchanges which don't have a long term future (i.e around 80% of them) - this will involve closure of all copper services

It doesn't though, because FTTC has no dependency on the local exchanges. The fibre goes directly to the head-end exchange (the same one that would serve FTTP for the area), and the copper goes directly between the cabinets and the houses. The dependency on the local exchange will vanish in January 2027 when analogue voice services are turned off.

There is *some* incentive to get rid of copper completely: e.g. lower fault rate, and reducing the cross-skilling of engineers. But set against the very high cost of installing FTTP to certain areas, such as those with DIG copper, means that pockets of FTTC-only are likely to remain for a very long time.

The big prize will be the PSTN switch off saving a shed load of energy costs.

I expect the copper network to wither away as punters gradually move to fibre or wireless. When I started working on the network nearly everyone had a rented dial phone. It's difficult to pin a date on when nobody did.

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

The big prize will be the PSTN switch off saving a shed load of energy costs.

Probably not a very green saving of energy costs. It looks to me like a shift of energy costs to the customer and I would hazard a guess that it costs the customer a lot more energy, depending on the comparison bases you choose.

In reply to a post by DFScale:

In reply to a post by FibreBubble:

The big prize will be the PSTN switch off saving a shed load of energy costs.

Probably not a very green saving of energy costs. It looks to me like a shift of energy costs to the customer and I would hazard a guess that it costs the customer a lot more energy, depending on the comparison bases you choose.

Given that:
1. almost everyone now has broadband, and is powering their router anyway;
2. fewer and fewer people use landline voice, given the ubiquity of mobile phones
I'd say the energy costs to the consumer are zero.

I might be wild off the mark, but I reckon just 1-2 watts per ONT would easily cover what an old copper circuit would take to power continuously just for dial tone. Then there is additional ADSL kit or FTTC DSLAMs etc etc. Let alone all the other run and maintenance charges, which become ruinous as the old exchange kit goes on extended life support from their suppliers. GPON / XGS-PON etc really is much, cheaper to run and performance of course is 1000x times better.

The extra over cost for running that ONT to the customer is around £2 a year in leccy.

[pedant mode on] ‘wide of the mark’ [pedant mode off]











sorry

Born to be wild(ly off the mark!) 🙈 😝

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Born to be wild(ly off the mac!) 🙈 😝

puts on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB1D9wWxd2w

😂🙈🤭 sorry not sorry

Don't forget he's a wild pheasant, and just like a seagull, if his output misses our head that would be wild off the mark.

Time for my afternoon walk!

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Go walk round Salisbury, what an enormous amount of homes and businesses clearly haven’t taken up FTTP and will just sit tight until forced to do so.

Practically, how would you do this? I would like to know what the take-up of FTTP is in my area (2 altnets, no OR). Neither of the altnets publishes customer stats. I've tried walking around looking for CSP boxes, but there are so many problems with that: hedges, shrubs, garden plants & furniture, parked cars, bins can all conceal them. One I know for a fact is behind a side gate, so invisible from the road.. Quite a bit of my neighbourhood is served overhead, and sometimes two drop cables to the same house is a giveaway, but that aside, it's little better than guesswork.

Nonetheless I take your point about copper being around for many years yet. Quite a few (mostly older) people in my area are still on ADSL - I know several - and will likely stay that way until forced off. ADSL meets their needs for email and simple surfing, they don't like change, so they won't move voluntarily. That's why I thought OR would make more effort to complete areas so they can shut down our local exchange.

Doesn't it just need Openreach to make ADSL more expensive than ADSL2+? Those being the two underlying products in question. Or simply turn off pure ADSL at the same time as PSTN.

CPs will then automatically have to upgrade them to FTTC/VDSL2 or FTTP depending on which is available/cheapest from OR or an AltNet.

Edited by pluralist (Thu 14-Nov-24 17:44:17)

Oooh nasty 🤣

In reply to a post by pluralist:

Time for my afternoon walk!

Good thinking 😅😉

Practically, how would you do this?

I would look, albeit with eyes that possibly ‘see’ such stuff more readily than Joe Public.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

Doesn't it just need Openreach to make ADSL more expensive than ADSL2+? Those being the two underlying products in question. Or simply turn off pure ADSL at the same time as PSTN.

CPs will then automatically have to upgrade them to FTTC/VDSL2 or FTTP depending on which is available/cheapest from OR or an AltNet.

Sorry, I wasn't distinguishing between ADSL and ADSL2+. It could be either they have. But since most of my village is around 5km from the exchange as OR's cables run, it would make precious little difference.

But these are regulated prices and products. I'm not an expert on any of this, but OR can only set their wholesale prices within levels prescribed by Ofcom. They can't just raise them on a whim. Similarly they can't just discontinue services because they're bored with them. Not everyone may be able to move to VDSL/FTTC if there are capacity issues at a cab, for example, and cabs aren't being upgraded any more.

Perhaps others who know more about this than I do can clarify.

From that, the question is whether or not FTTC is available in your village. Easily seen from the presence of Openreach FTTC cabinets.

(That hasn't been updated for years but as far as I know is safe. I've had no complaints by Norton or Malwarebytes about it having viewed the site a couple of times recently. Only my browser complained first time and I opted to continue).

The Huawei and ECI cabinets are the FTTC ones. Since that site ceased updating some mini-FTTC cabs have been bolted onto the sides of Openreach PCPs and/or (if I remember correctly), some Huawei cabs once the initial ones filled up.

If FTTC is there then if OR want to close the exchange they could simply upgrade ensure that all could get FTTC by adding cabs if needed. (They should be able to recover lots of redundant ones from FTTP areas).

If it isn't, basically the same. Install FTTP or convert to FTTC the same way.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

Doesn't it just need Openreach to make ADSL more expensive than ADSL2+?

Technically, Openreach doesn't provide either ADSL or ADSL2+. BT Wholesale do, using their own DSLAMs hosted in the OR exchanges - as do various other operators like Talktalk, Sky etc.

These in turn buy the Metallic Path Facility (MPF) service from Openreach, which is just a copper local loop between the exchange and the premise. This is more generally known as Local Loop Unbundling (LLU).

So really, it's a question of Openreach increasing the price of the MPF service (which they'll be allowed to do once an exchange area becomes FTTP priority). And of course, BT Wholesale could at some point sunset their ADSL service, and the other operators could decide to remove their DSLAMs and MSANs.

If BT wants to exit the exchanges and stop paying the rental, then this will have to happen sooner or later, but there doesn't seem to be much of an urgent push yet: the original trial of ~100 exchange closures was reduced to just 3 or 5 (from memory). Apart from voice switchoff they'll also have to remove other things like leased line nodes, which could take years.

I think they're probably going to leave it to waste away naturally. In 10-15 years there may still be a few stragglers left on ADSL, but the numbers should be so small they can deal with them individually to "persuade" them to move. Similarly, the other operators will want to reduce their cost base over that period by removing their DSLAMs and MSANs, so have an incentive to migrate their own customers.

Over a similar time period, BT will be providing SOTAP for Analogue, using voice gateways in the exchange, to provide dialtone over copper to elderly people who want nothing more than to keep their existing voice phone. Since you won't be able to order this product for new provides or line takeovers - it's only for continuation of service to existing analogue phone customers - that problem will sort itself out naturally over time too.

There are a few places where FTTC performs worse than ADSL, due to the lengths of copper line, so those properties will have to be dealt with somehow - if they don't get FTTP then they may be offered 4G.

Edited by candlerb (Fri 15-Nov-24 10:57:12)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

The extra over cost for running that ONT to the customer is around £2 a year in leccy.

That might be true, but I don't think it's even relevant: it would only apply to customers who take *voice phone service only*, and how many of those are there, these days?

The vast majority of people take broadband, in which case they have to pay for the ONT and router's electricity consumption anyway. The extra for voice is zero.

In actuality - if your comparison basis is *plain copper pair vs FTTP * - then the “extra over” (for the customer end only) for all cases is just the ONT ~ “a cup of coffee per year” for leccy. The router is pre-existing, so like for like from a power basis.

For customers with no broadband need and just a “like for like” replacement voice only over FTTP then additionally it’s additional the power for router too.

If previous voice only customers just have access to FTTC (or SOTAP/SOADSL) then it’s just the router power, roughly “two cups of coffee per year”.

It’s a south of a million or so lines (not necessarily customers) and definitely not all resi either.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by pluralist:

Doesn't it just need Openreach to make ADSL more expensive than ADSL2+?

Technically, Openreach doesn't provide either ADSL or ADSL2+. BT Wholesale do, using their own DSLAMs hosted in the OR exchanges - as do various other operators like Talktalk, Sky etc.

Grrr!

Of course I "knew that", (as RobertoS), but it's literally years since I used that knowledge. So forgot. However, the street cabinets containing mini-DSLAMs are surely Openreach?

The rest of your post, yes . Makes perfect sense.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

However, the street cabinets containing mini-DSLAMs are surely Openreach?

Yes - FTTC (or SOGEA as it is now) is an Openreach service.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

That might be true, but I don't think it's even relevant: it would only apply to customers who take *voice phone service only*, and how many of those are there, these days?

Outside of domestic, I think lots… including security huts, lift emergency phones and similar… there has to be probably half a million, maybe a million or more.

I thought Openreach had launched a transitional product where they basically ran an ATA in the exchange and routed the voice over the copper. Saw it on ISPreview start of year I think.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

I thought Openreach had launched a transitional product where they basically ran an ATA in the exchange and routed the voice over the copper. Saw it on ISPreview start of year I think.

It's called "SOTAP for Analogue" although I don't know if it's actually launched yet (it got delayed).

It's not available to order for new service, or for migrations or line takeovers. It's primarily for existing elderly/vulnerable people so they don't have to deal with changing their voice service over to digital, and potentially having to upgrade care alarms.

I don't know whether it will apply to business lines rather than residential, and therefore whether it will be supported for lifts and the like. Those really *should* be upgraded by the manufacturer/maintainer.

The whole SOTAP thing from start to....well it's not finished!! Enough said. Carp shoot.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

It's called "SOTAP for Analogue" although I don't know if it's actually launched yet (it got delayed).

That's the one, thanks.

It's not available to order for new service, or for migrations or line takeovers. It's primarily for existing elderly/vulnerable people so they don't have to deal with changing their voice service over to digital, and potentially having to upgrade care alarms.

Gotcha, I saw Ofcom get quite cross with the care alarm industry recently.

I don't know whether it will apply to business lines rather than residential, and therefore whether it will be supported for lifts and the like. Those really *should* be upgraded by the manufacturer/maintainer.

Would solve a problem short term I guess.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I don't know whether it will apply to business lines rather than residential, and therefore whether it will be supported for lifts and the like. Those really *should* be upgraded by the manufacturer/maintainer.

I get it for old and vulnerable not technically literate / not well off people...but multinational lift manufacturers and big corporates. Those turkeys are just taking the proverbial. They are just milking it / sweating it until they're forced off.

Plenty of technical alternatives to an analogue phone line in 2024 for business. Not like they haven't done this before in Europe and Oz.

We're not exactlty bleeding on the edge here in the UK with this stuff.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I get it for old and vulnerable not technically literate / not well off people...but multinational lift manufacturers and big corporates. Those turkeys are just taking the proverbial. They are just milking it / sweating it until they're forced off.

Plenty of technical alternatives to an analogue phone line in 2024 for business. Not like they haven't done this before in Europe and Oz.

We're not exactlty bleeding on the edge here in the UK with this stuff.

How dare you, Sir! We're world beating with this programme. Stop looking at the various countries that have removed the PSTN and especially those that have entirely or almost entirely gotten rid of copper. Norway, Spain, Sweden, Estonia, various parts of the United States, Singapore, Japan, all far behind our retiring zero PSTN outside of trials and zero copper full stop.

It's actually quite pathetic how long this is taking. Our productivity is so bad we can't switch things off in a timely fashion and we're so scared of change entire nations have gone all digital in the time it's taken the regulator to get really, really ticked off at businesses refusing to take action. Meanwhile politicians wring their hands at the prospect and demand the telcos install a small modular reactor in every garden in case of very prolonged power outages.

Beyond comedy this has been in prospect for years and a transitional product has to go into exchanges that should have closed years ago. This has to be done some time and while it won't have the days of diesel powered generator-backed power copper does it won't in 5, 10 or 15 years either.

I live in an estate with full fibre, we've never had copper. There's an apartment building exclusively for the over-55s at one end. It's bizarre that we're terrified of turning the PSTN off while it's fine for almost everything built in the last 4 or 5 years to have never had copper.

Edited by XGS_Is_On (Fri 15-Nov-24 23:48:17)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

The whole SOTAP thing from start to....well it's not finished!!

I really don't see why Openreach have taken so long implementing this - SOTAP is being consumed by BT Wholesale to provide SOADSL, this seems no different from MPF being consumed by other CPs who could offer DSL-only from their MSANs. Surely BT Wholesale could have bought Openreach MPF circuits to their rented space in the exchange, just as any other CP does.

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

How dare you, Sir! We're world beating with this programme. Stop looking at the various countries that have removed the PSTN and especially those that have entirely or almost entirely gotten rid of copper.

😂😂 loving the mock outrage. You’re far more eloquent and polite than I: another crass colonial 😝

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

I live in an estate with full fibre, we've never had copper. There's an apartment building exclusively for the over-55s at one end. It's bizarre that we're terrified of turning the PSTN off while it's fine for almost everything built in the last 4 or 5 years to have never had copper.

I live in a tiny group of 2 story blocks of flats at the end of a road. Everyone in the road has OR copper, VM coax, and TWO separate AltNet FTTP suppliers. Get to the block of flats and those whom had cable installed in the 90s or early 2000s have a choice, everyone else is stuck with copper. The building owners (housing association) have stopped responding to wayleave requests from anyone.

The problem is at parliament, they haven't finished the job.