In reply to a post by Pheasant:

The extra over cost for running that ONT to the customer is around £2 a year in leccy.

That might be true, but I don't think it's even relevant: it would only apply to customers who take *voice phone service only*, and how many of those are there, these days?

The vast majority of people take broadband, in which case they have to pay for the ONT and router's electricity consumption anyway. The extra for voice is zero.

In actuality - if your comparison basis is *plain copper pair vs FTTP * - then the “extra over” (for the customer end only) for all cases is just the ONT ~ “a cup of coffee per year” for leccy. The router is pre-existing, so like for like from a power basis.

For customers with no broadband need and just a “like for like” replacement voice only over FTTP then additionally it’s additional the power for router too.

If previous voice only customers just have access to FTTC (or SOTAP/SOADSL) then it’s just the router power, roughly “two cups of coffee per year”.

It’s a south of a million or so lines (not necessarily customers) and definitely not all resi either.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by pluralist:

Doesn't it just need Openreach to make ADSL more expensive than ADSL2+?

Technically, Openreach doesn't provide either ADSL or ADSL2+. BT Wholesale do, using their own DSLAMs hosted in the OR exchanges - as do various other operators like Talktalk, Sky etc.

Grrr!

Of course I "knew that", (as RobertoS), but it's literally years since I used that knowledge. So forgot. However, the street cabinets containing mini-DSLAMs are surely Openreach?

The rest of your post, yes . Makes perfect sense.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

However, the street cabinets containing mini-DSLAMs are surely Openreach?

Yes - FTTC (or SOGEA as it is now) is an Openreach service.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

That might be true, but I don't think it's even relevant: it would only apply to customers who take *voice phone service only*, and how many of those are there, these days?

Outside of domestic, I think lots… including security huts, lift emergency phones and similar… there has to be probably half a million, maybe a million or more.

I thought Openreach had launched a transitional product where they basically ran an ATA in the exchange and routed the voice over the copper. Saw it on ISPreview start of year I think.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

I thought Openreach had launched a transitional product where they basically ran an ATA in the exchange and routed the voice over the copper. Saw it on ISPreview start of year I think.

It's called "SOTAP for Analogue" although I don't know if it's actually launched yet (it got delayed).

It's not available to order for new service, or for migrations or line takeovers. It's primarily for existing elderly/vulnerable people so they don't have to deal with changing their voice service over to digital, and potentially having to upgrade care alarms.

I don't know whether it will apply to business lines rather than residential, and therefore whether it will be supported for lifts and the like. Those really *should* be upgraded by the manufacturer/maintainer.

The whole SOTAP thing from start to....well it's not finished!! Enough said. Carp shoot.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

It's called "SOTAP for Analogue" although I don't know if it's actually launched yet (it got delayed).

That's the one, thanks.

It's not available to order for new service, or for migrations or line takeovers. It's primarily for existing elderly/vulnerable people so they don't have to deal with changing their voice service over to digital, and potentially having to upgrade care alarms.

Gotcha, I saw Ofcom get quite cross with the care alarm industry recently.

I don't know whether it will apply to business lines rather than residential, and therefore whether it will be supported for lifts and the like. Those really *should* be upgraded by the manufacturer/maintainer.

Would solve a problem short term I guess.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

I don't know whether it will apply to business lines rather than residential, and therefore whether it will be supported for lifts and the like. Those really *should* be upgraded by the manufacturer/maintainer.

I get it for old and vulnerable not technically literate / not well off people...but multinational lift manufacturers and big corporates. Those turkeys are just taking the proverbial. They are just milking it / sweating it until they're forced off.

Plenty of technical alternatives to an analogue phone line in 2024 for business. Not like they haven't done this before in Europe and Oz.

We're not exactlty bleeding on the edge here in the UK with this stuff.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I get it for old and vulnerable not technically literate / not well off people...but multinational lift manufacturers and big corporates. Those turkeys are just taking the proverbial. They are just milking it / sweating it until they're forced off.

Plenty of technical alternatives to an analogue phone line in 2024 for business. Not like they haven't done this before in Europe and Oz.

We're not exactlty bleeding on the edge here in the UK with this stuff.

How dare you, Sir! We're world beating with this programme. Stop looking at the various countries that have removed the PSTN and especially those that have entirely or almost entirely gotten rid of copper. Norway, Spain, Sweden, Estonia, various parts of the United States, Singapore, Japan, all far behind our retiring zero PSTN outside of trials and zero copper full stop.

It's actually quite pathetic how long this is taking. Our productivity is so bad we can't switch things off in a timely fashion and we're so scared of change entire nations have gone all digital in the time it's taken the regulator to get really, really ticked off at businesses refusing to take action. Meanwhile politicians wring their hands at the prospect and demand the telcos install a small modular reactor in every garden in case of very prolonged power outages.

Beyond comedy this has been in prospect for years and a transitional product has to go into exchanges that should have closed years ago. This has to be done some time and while it won't have the days of diesel powered generator-backed power copper does it won't in 5, 10 or 15 years either.

I live in an estate with full fibre, we've never had copper. There's an apartment building exclusively for the over-55s at one end. It's bizarre that we're terrified of turning the PSTN off while it's fine for almost everything built in the last 4 or 5 years to have never had copper.

Edited by XGS_Is_On (Fri 15-Nov-24 23:48:17)