Fibre to the premises in an apartment complex

Hi Folks

Ive moved to an apartment complex with FTC only at present- the nearby exchange is due a FTTP upgrade soon but how technically is FTTP managed in an apartment complex?- does fibre replace copper wiring only to the complex's 'switch room/ switch panel' with normal cat 5 cabling remaining in place to individual apartments or does fibre even replace this cabling ( which is all internal). I guess even if the former there would still be a substantial speed increase?

What are the options/ limitations? - will be seeking landlord permission in due course

Grateful for any advices

For Openreach (and many other fibre networks - there are around 100 other AltNets in the UK) they will bring fibre right to the door of the apartment. In some case they may leave it in the riser and then run out to individual flats at a later date. At one point, early doors, companies like Hyperoptic delivered FTTB (fibre to the basement effectively) and then reticulated to individual apartments using UTP (Cat 5e and the like) structured copper cabling.

Either way these days you should get fibre delivered directly right into to your individual apartment.

Fibre completely replaces any services delivered over copper. Openreach currently deploy a GPON-based FTTP network which allows them to deliver an end service of up to 1600 Mbps in the downstream direction. Other providers utilise XGS-PON which enable them to deliver currently services in the UK of up to 8000 Mbps symmetrically (both downstream and upstream).

Your landlord / building owner / managing agent - whomever holds the freehold rights will have to agree to a way leave agreement for any fibre to be installed. this is typically the thing which takes the longest to negotatioate and agree, so if you have any degree of leverage or powers of persuasion - start now!

Good luck 🤞

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Your landlord / building owner / managing agent - whomever holds the freehold rights will have to agree to a way leave agreement for any fibre to be installed. this is typically the thing which takes the longest to negotatioate and agree, so if you have any degree of leverage or powers of persuasion - start now!

Is this not the most crucial part of the process and which should be the first item of interest for the OP when the factors to be resolved are concerned? Would it be better at the top of the explanation as the technical points cannot be addressed without that being addressed?

The only difference I suppose between houses and MDU buildings is that you won't get point to point fibre installations in apartment blocks.

What you will get is PON (Passive Optical Network) and with Openreach it will be GPON and with the other Altnets it will be XGS-PON. This will be installed in the building somewhere in a control/care taking room. The rest of the Fibre cables will travel across all the apartments and floors.

As soon as you sign up to one of the Altnets an engineer will come and install a Fibre drop cable that enters to your flat and you have a choice where you want to install your ONT (Optical Network Termination) usually up to 10 meters into your flat. There is no copper and your existing Openreach copper cable is completely separated.

However, if you do get Virgin Media Nexfibre you won't get ONT but more of a Fibre cable directly plugged into a Hub 5X router.
Most of the Altnets will have 10Gbps symmetrical support though, they aren't yet offering such packages. But that Fibre will push speeds much higher than that in future if the PON gets upgraded. For example, if it was upgraded to 25G-PON you'll get 25Gbps and if it is 50G-PON you'll get 50Gbps. There is always room for such upgrades in future.

The only current limitation with the Altnets such as Community Fibre and Hyperoptic is that you are stuck with them only. You can't choose another ISP on that network. You are also stuck with CGNAT where if portforwarding is required you won't be able to open them. Perhaps, only in Community Fibre above 3Gbps has CGNAT removed. Not sure about the latest 2.5Gbps offerings.

Hyperoptic in the past were building only until the basement and the rest of the flats were fed with Cat5e cables. This gives a 1Gbps limitation. But nowadays Hyperoptic do install Fibre directly into the flats.

You will need to seek permission from your landlord and often you may have no say on what they decide to choose. I am a Hyperoptic Champion of my building here in Central London but my management did not agree with Hyperoptic but only agreed with Community Fibre and most recently with Virgin Media Nexfibre. I'm hoping to get Openreach in future but again, it doesn't entirely depend on me.

The choice you get is not dependent on your desires. You may want one provider but your landlord might agree for something else that you are not interested in.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

The only difference I suppose between houses and MDU buildings is that you won't get point to point fibre installations in apartment blocks.

What you will get is PON (Passive Optical Network) and with Openreach it will be GPON and with the other Altnets it will be XGS-PON. This will be installed in the building somewhere in a control/care taking room. The rest of the Fibre cables will travel across all the apartments and floors.

Hyperoptic in the past were building only until the basement and the rest of the flats were fed with Cat5e cables. This gives a 1Gbps limitation.

Don't get them in houses besides B4RN, Grain and a very few others including legacy Gigaclear. Almost everyone uses PON throughout.

Building installs usually go closer to units than a room in the basement or wherever. Often at least a distribution box on each floor fed by a higher fibre count cable then Invisilight or similar to each unit on demand or to the outside pending unit entry.

Cat 5e is not limited to a gigabit. Certified to 2.5 Gb at a hundred metres and often good for 5 Gb at that range.

Yeah P2P versus xPON wouldn’t be the key point of difference I’d raise between MDU and SDU installs either.

To my mind the key differences (in no particular order 😅)

1. Dependence on OTHERS for wayleave / permission to install
2. Theoretically a more limited choice of physical networks - but the same can be said of SDU deployment. Key here is who decides what networks will be “allowed in”. See point (1)
3. Depending on network, differences in how the fibre is reticulated / presented inside the apartment i.e InvisiLight type solutions generally aren’t used outside of MDUs

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

The only difference I suppose between houses and MDU buildings is that you won't get point to point fibre installations in apartment blocks.

I would guess this a) depends on the size of the block and b) if the block has any sort of utility/equipment room or even risers. The UK has a lot of 2 or 3 story blocks of flats that have no central utilities, no central meters, no risers, no lift. The UK also has a significant number of 10 and higher story tower blocks that will have some sort of faciliities function.

MDU is such a broad term.

Blazing may have a different (personal) definition of 'point to point' aka P2P here.

Perhaps he actually meant fibre all the way to the apartment -rather like the old part fibre (leased circuit to basement) / part Cat5e copper solution to apartments (classic FTTB) that Hyperoptic used to install in some apartment blocks some 5 to 10 years ago.

Otherwise the classic definition of "P2P" in broadband networks, is as noted above, a distinction from PON networks in that the optical network is not 'shared' as is the case with GPON/XGSPON etc - P2P optical networks are better thought of as connected like metropolitan optical ethernet - a star network back to a concentrator. Instead of an ONT as per GPON etc each customer gets an optical NTE - effectively an optical ethernet converter.

The best examples of this P2P style ultrafast broadband as noted above by @XGS_Is_on are Grain Connect, legacy Gigaclear, B4RN and B4SH, TrueSpeed, VX Fiber and WightFibre.

I read the OP as the block already having the FTTC installed to a switch room, with internal ethernet to each apartment. Some previous responders seem to have missed that.

I suggest the main question is what standard of ethernet cabling it is .

Actually, indeed I meant the classic definition of "P2P" like the example that XGS_Is_On mentioned with B4RN and Gigaclear.

Gigaclear utilizes a point-to-point (P2P) fiber infrastructure, meaning each customer's property has a dedicated fiber connection directly to the Gigaclear network. This is in contrast to Passive Optical Network (PON) systems where a single fiber feeds multiple subscribers. Gigaclear's P2P network ensures a dedicated connection for each customer, offering potential advantages like higher speeds and bandwidth

That's what I had in mind where each house is fed with a dedicated Fibre optic cable. For example, if I am living in an MDU building and here we are 20 floors totaling 82 flats. We don't get 82 dedicated Fibre optic cables coming into our flats. What we have is a PON network and then this one Fibre cable is then split into 82 other separate cables that link to each flat.

Even though not all houses get that sort of privilege they are still more likely to have that opportunity. But block of flats are even less likely to have that option. We wouldn't even get that privilege even if we theoretically had FTTPoD because that will still require a wayleave process, which will be denied.

It is unrealistic to imagine that we will have 82 dedicated separate fibre cables entering our flats! It will probably never happen in our lifetime.

If we had multiple FTTP network overbuilds that would potentially mean multiplying 82x2 or 3 times fibre cables.

Theoretically if now B4RN, B4SH, Gigaclear, WightFibre, etc offered something higher than 10Gbps they could offer it straightaway if current computer hardware wasn't a limitation for the customer requesting such a service!
But most of us have to wait for this XGS-PON to be upgraded to 25G-PON or 50G-PON otherwise we will never get anything higher than 10Gbps.

Hyperoptic for the old builds of-course while may handle 2.5G at 100 metres, Hyperoptic still don't officially offer such packages because it is still not guaranteed that a customer will receive those speeds at the top floors of a building like South Quay Plaza or Landmark Pinnacle with Cat5e cables. Now it is highly likely that they will not install Cat5e in those buildings. But still even if they wanted to offer 2.5/5Gbps packages like Community Fibre then what will happen is that Hyperoptic will have to advertise their packages for specific premises only!

It will be embarrassing from a marketing point of view that their speeds can only be offered to those that don't have Cat5e. They will have to upgrade all their remaining buildings from basement to each flat with Fibre. I would not be surprised if back in 2015 my management denied Hyperoptic due to the Cat5e installation. A landlord may deny wayleave access due to reasons such as this. Openreach FTTP wayleave may also be ignored due to the GPON limitation.

Though, not always a Technical/Property Manager managing those buildings will tell you the reasons why they have denied one provider or another. They have reasons that they don't always tell you. Just like in my case my housing officer said on behalf of the Technical Manager "If we are going to agree wayleave, we will do it with another provider, not Hyperoptic".

Of-course I never bothered to question back then why. I simply ignored the matter until of-course 6 years later wayleave was agreed for Community Fibre and in 2023 service went live. Last year a wayleave was agreed for Virgin Media Nexfibre. Landlords have a mind of their own, they won't always listen to a resident wanting a specific FTTP provider.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

I read the OP as the block already having the FTTC installed to a switch room, with internal ethernet to each apartment. Some previous responders seem to have missed that.

I suggest the main question is what standard of ethernet cabling it is .

OP says he has regular FTTC broadband currently. There may well be Cat5 (or whatever standard) of data cabling or indeed it may just be regular CW1308 grade telephone cabling to each apartment.

It’s not really relevant - as no FTTP provider will use it. If they do eventually offer service then in 2025 or later it will fibre to each apartment.

P2P as offered by those (small regional AltNet) providers is effectively legacy tech. Gigaclear are now building using PON. Their existing estate of P2P service is not being expanded.

You’ll find that the other 98% of AltNet providers have no intention to move to P2P and their fibre networks are firmly designed as PONs.

There is no superiority for P2P technically either - it’s still a shared / contended service. The backhaul Ethernet uplink from the local switch won’t be sized on a 1:1 basis with the number of serving downstream ports. So if there are 24 or 48 P2P customer connections to that switch then in all likelihood its probably only got a gigabit sized uplink (hopefully a resilient pair) to the rest of their network. Maybe 10 gigabit. But then like any broadband service at the end of the day that capacity is shared across those served subscribers. You don’t have an un-contended personal link on a P2P based broadband network.

So you’re not missing much / anything here by being in an MDU (in another region unserved by those providers) and not getting offered a P2P network.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Though, not always a Technical/Property Manager managing those buildings will tell you the reasons why they have denied one provider or another.

Not always. There are 144 units (flats) in my estate, in 4 physical buildings. Two are three story, two are two story. Many flats have 10+ years of Virgin Cable (coax) on the outside of the building.

AltNet put up telegraph poles in the street and could easily have run from pole to building and down the wall, but zero contact with property owner after residents and companies had attempted to approach. I can't see any change unless law changes.

Not dissimmilar to the problem of electric car charging with smaller MDUs.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

3. Depending on network, differences in how the fibre is reticulated / presented inside the apartment i.e InvisiLight type solutions generally aren’t used outside of MDUs

Lots of it in my SDU. Recommended.

To be honest more likely to find P2P in flats working the same way as the Hyperoptic FTTB installs but instead of copper from the switch to each unit fibre.

Easier to run a fibre to somewhere in the same building and terminate it there than to run it to a powered cabinet or right the way back to an exchange: the apartments provide a convenient place to put a switch.

Failing that can run a high fibre count cable, 288 fibre cable is just over a centimetre in diameter, to a distribution frame or passive cabinet outside and have an optical distribution frame in there so that an operator can patch fibre to different networks. Cable up a riser, break out required amount plus spares on each floor.

MDU much more amenable to point to point as more units closer. Grain replicate this to an extent by building either new build or digging to terraces where the units are a similar distance, zero, between each other but still have to run a dedicated fibre cable from cabinet to unit and the cabinets are further away than a basement or just outside the building.

Edited by XGS_Is_On (Tue 22-Apr-25 14:48:42)

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

3. Depending on network, differences in how the fibre is reticulated / presented inside the apartment i.e InvisiLight type solutions generally aren’t used outside of MDUs

Lots of it in my SDU. Recommended.

You and I are both a bit mad. I think our other halves know it too 🙈🤣

I went mad on Cat6A when we refurbed our old place, with a little bit of SM fibre here and there. I wish now I'd put some more fibre in strategically, but having structured cabling and sat/TV coax in each room was a decent compromise.

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

Easier to run a fibre to somewhere in the same building and terminate it there than to run it to a powered cabinet or right the way back to an exchange: the apartments provide a convenient place to put a switch.

Not really. A P2P network would require a powered switch (including procuring a power supply -- either formally or by coming to some sort of agreement with the managing agent (which may be complex as residents don't like paying for other people's electricity!). PON uses a passive splitter which is much simpler as it requires no power.

In reply to a post by behuk:

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

Easier to run a fibre to somewhere in the same building and terminate it there than to run it to a powered cabinet or right the way back to an exchange: the apartments provide a convenient place to put a switch.

Not really. A P2P network would require a powered switch (including procuring a power supply -- either formally or by coming to some sort of agreement with the managing agent (which may be complex as residents don't like paying for other people's electricity!). PON uses a passive splitter which is much simpler as it requires no power.

The comparison was between MDUs and SDUs, however Hyperoptic have hundreds of switches in MDUs feeding copper ports. Seems it's not an insurmountable obstacle. If not doable a single high fibre count cable in, going to a cabinet that is an ODF and may be the switch too. In both cases much easier than an SDU.

48 SFP+ or even 25G SFP28 ports will fit into a single rack unit so not a big space requirement.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

The only difference I suppose between houses and MDU buildings is that you won't get point to point fibre installations in apartment blocks.

What you will get is PON (Passive Optical Network) and with Openreach it will be GPON and with the other Altnets it will be XGS-PON. This will be installed in the building somewhere in a control/care taking room. The rest of the Fibre cables will travel across all the apartments and floors.

As soon as you sign up to one of the Altnets an engineer will come and install a Fibre drop cable that enters to your flat and you have a choice where you want to install your ONT (Optical Network Termination) usually up to 10 meters into your flat. There is no copper and your existing Openreach copper cable is completely separated.

However, if you do get Virgin Media Nexfibre you won't get ONT but more of a Fibre cable directly plugged into a Hub 5X router.
Most of the Altnets will have 10Gbps symmetrical support though, they aren't yet offering such packages. But that Fibre will push speeds much higher than that in future if the PON gets upgraded. For example, if it was upgraded to 25G-PON you'll get 25Gbps and if it is 50G-PON you'll get 50Gbps. There is always room for such upgrades in future.

The only current limitation with the Altnets such as Community Fibre and Hyperoptic is that you are stuck with them only. You can't choose another ISP on that network. You are also stuck with CGNAT where if portforwarding is required you won't be able to open them. Perhaps, only in Community Fibre above 3Gbps has CGNAT removed. Not sure about the latest 2.5Gbps offerings.

Hyperoptic in the past were building only until the basement and the rest of the flats were fed with Cat5e cables. This gives a 1Gbps limitation. But nowadays Hyperoptic do install Fibre directly into the flats.

You will need to seek permission from your landlord and often you may have no say on what they decide to choose. I am a Hyperoptic Champion of my building here in Central London but my management did not agree with Hyperoptic but only agreed with Community Fibre and most recently with Virgin Media Nexfibre. I'm hoping to get Openreach in future but again, it doesn't entirely depend on me.

The choice you get is not dependent on your desires. You may want one provider but your landlord might agree for something else that you are not interested in.

Openreach literally just came to deploy to our block. They terminate under a man-hole in our parking lot. There's no need for splitter box in the communal area etc. The engineer told me so. I'm guessing individual flats would be treated just like SDUs.

There are variations on how OR can deal with MDU , mainly depending on the number of units etc , if there are a small number of units , lighting up an internal splitter (potentially 30 users ) for a couple of flats / apartments is something of a waste of headend resources / equipment, so the splitter can remain external and basically the few units fed from the equivalent of CBT , it can make sense with a much larger MDU where utilising the capacity of a splitter or splitters can be achieved , they may see the splitter or splitters internally sited in a basement/buddy box .

Give two planners the same job , two slightly different designs may be produced, but optimising the equipment is required.

A MDU development/build I was familiar with , albeit new build apartment blocks rather than a retro fitted MDU ,
10 identical MDU’s of 6 units each , being 2 ground floor , 2 first floor , 2 second floor .
The network design was an intermediate joint served from a large splitter node , this IJ served all 10 identical MDU blocks , a 12 fibre COF into each MDU from the IJ , to a basement box in the ground floor riser , meeting 2 Eazibends to units , 1 and 2 , an internal 12f cable with 4 fibres pushed through to buddy box first floor riser , meeting 2 Ezibends to units 3 and 4 ‘, another 12f internal cable with 2 fibres pushed through to second floor riser etc
All MDU served from the same IJ , 60 flats in total , two fully utilised external splitters in the large splitter node , rather than 10 internal splitters , one within each MDU , with 6 flats each , that would be needlessly wasting headed capacity, IJ’s and cables are cheap , headend capacity isn’t .

Retro fitting MDU is not exactly the same , but the basic principles apply

Edited by Iniltous (Wed 23-Apr-25 16:27:22)

Thanks for clarifying the different approaches Iniltous. Would you kindly have a look at the thread I created today regarding my MDU? I've attached 2 pictures that I believe you will be able to make sense of what's going on. Thanks in advance.

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

Openreach literally just came to deploy to our block. They terminate under a man-hole in our parking lot. There's no need for splitter box in the communal area etc. The engineer told me so. I'm guessing individual flats would be treated just like SDUs.

But this is not a block from the 2 pictures that you posted in your own thread. https://i.postimg.cc/4Nb7dcZF/1.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/YSgwr6Bv/2.jpg
This is a residential estate with SDUs and they are basically like individual houses. A block is a high rise building!

In your case there is no splitter box because these are no flats in one communal building. Perhaps Openreach approach may be different and it is going to be different even for various MDUs. We have a caretaker room and a carpark basement under the building.

You can see how Hyperoptic have installed their service https://www.ispreview.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/...
It is in a basement. But of-course it varies as some MDUs don't have basements to begin with and the installation arrangement will of-course be different. We have a caretakers room here within the inside of the ground floor with lifts that lead up the flats. The route is probably different for every building. Maybe other buildings don't have caretakers rooms or estate office attached with the building. The engineers may install their splitter either in basement, caretakers room, or in the office that then feeds Fibre into the flats.

But I know from our building there is no visible Fibre optic cables that travel within the ground floor of our building. But in our case it is like this with Community Fibre https://itsupplychain.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05...
This obviously travels somewhere down either in our basement or caretakers room. This is actually a photo from our building.

Then there are Fibre drop cables that enter the individual flats.
But if it was the old way how Hyperoptic did it then they will probably simply have fed Cat5e cables from basement to individual flats. Nowadays they install Full Fibre.

I haven't yet taken Community Fibre yet and there's no Fibre optic cable that enters my flat yet. But as soon as I sign up they will install a drop cable that feeds inside my flat from this.

It’s pretty clear that @squarecrumpets meant ‘block’ in the generic sense.

We’ve all heard (hopefully) the term “been around the block” - it’s an American based expression. Clearly that’s a block too - just one that is presumably flat, otherwise they’d be going up and down in the block than around it. Similarly an individual building in a group or collective of buildings is typically referred to as a ‘block’.

My point that a block doesn’t have to mean a high-rise multi story building - even though that’s your personal experience.

Otherwise, as noted several times, the term MDU is a huge umbrella term that can mean just about any layout or permutation of multiple dwellings that are considered a single development entity. It’s pretty easy to visualise and define an SDU by comparison.

Edited by Pheasant (Fri 25-Apr-25 05:09:45)

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

Openreach literally just came to deploy to our block. They terminate under a man-hole in our parking lot. There's no need for splitter box in the communal area etc. The engineer told me so. I'm guessing individual flats would be treated just like SDUs.

But this is not a block from the 2 pictures that you posted in your own thread. https://i.postimg.cc/4Nb7dcZF/1.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/YSgwr6Bv/2.jpg
This is a residential estate with SDUs and they are basically like individual houses. A block is a high rise building!

In your case there is no splitter box because these are no flats in one communal building. Perhaps Openreach approach may be different and it is going to be different even for various MDUs. We have a caretaker room and a carpark basement under the building.

You can see how Hyperoptic have installed their service https://www.ispreview.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/...
It is in a basement. But of-course it varies as some MDUs don't have basements to begin with and the installation arrangement will of-course be different. We have a caretakers room here within the inside of the ground floor with lifts that lead up the flats. The route is probably different for every building. Maybe other buildings don't have caretakers rooms or estate office attached with the building. The engineers may install their splitter either in basement, caretakers room, or in the office that then feeds Fibre into the flats.

But I know from our building there is no visible Fibre optic cables that travel within the ground floor of our building. But in our case it is like this with Community Fibre https://itsupplychain.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05...
This obviously travels somewhere down either in our basement or caretakers room. This is actually a photo from our building.

Then there are Fibre drop cables that enter the individual flats.
But if it was the old way how Hyperoptic did it then they will probably simply have fed Cat5e cables from basement to individual flats. Nowadays they install Full Fibre.

I haven't yet taken Community Fibre yet and there's no Fibre optic cable that enters my flat yet. But as soon as I sign up they will install a drop cable that feeds inside my flat from this.

The block of flats consists of 34 units, it's on the left in Pic 1. Pic 2 is taken in the carpark looking out from the block so you won't see it, however you can see some of the units to the right of the picture. There are 6 blocks in the postcode, They're all 3 storey MDUs with 6 flats each.

Here's a much better picture of the development: https://i.postimg.cc/tJq66dz4/5.jpg

Edited by squarecrumpets (Fri 25-Apr-25 10:26:02)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

It’s pretty clear that @squarecrumpets meant ‘block’ in the generic sense.

We’ve all heard (hopefully) the term “been around the block” - it’s an American based expression. Clearly that’s a block too - just one that is presumably flat, otherwise they’d be going up and down in the block than around it. Similarly an individual building in a group or collective of buildings is typically referred to as a ‘block’.

My point that a block doesn’t have to mean a high-rise multi story building - even though that’s your personal experience.

Otherwise, as noted several times, the term MDU is a huge umbrella term that can mean just about any layout or permutation of multiple dwellings that are considered a single development entity. It’s pretty easy to visualise and define an SDU by comparison.

Correct. I meant it's an MDU with 34 units with common hallways etc. where the freeholder needs to provide wayleave.

"A block is a high rise building!"

Not true at all. My mother-in-law lives in a flat on the 1st floor of a 2 storey block.
3 flats on the ground floor and 3 on the 1st floor, mirrored by the same on the opposite side of the courtyard.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Not true at all. My mother-in-law lives in a flat on the 1st floor of a 2 storey block. 3 flats on the ground floor and 3 on the 1st floor, mirrored by the same on the opposite side of the courtyard.

I live in such a block, 3 on each floor. Then a second block next door identical construction, but physically different layout. Then down the hill are two blocks of 3 story, the height of the blocks looks the same thanks to the hill. The estate is owned and managed by a housing association and dates from 1971. The entire estate can't get any FTTP provider as the housing association is not returning calls from either toob or F&W networks. Openreach FTTP is due by end of 2026 in this area, so will be interesting to see if they make any progress.

There are no equipment rooms, no central cabinets, no basement, no fire suppression, no lift. This is not a tower block.

Thankfully Virgin Media coax is everywhere...

Edited by jchamier (Fri 25-Apr-25 17:59:55)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

I live in such a block, 3 on each floor. Then a second block next door identical construction, but physically different layout. Then down the hill are two blocks of 3 story, the height of the blocks looks the same thanks to the hill. The estate is owned and managed by a housing association and dates from 1971. The entire estate can't get any FTTP provider as the housing association is not returning calls from either toob or F&W networks. Openreach FTTP is due by end of 2026 in this area, so will be interesting to see if they make any progress.

There are no equipment rooms, no central cabinets, no basement, no fire suppression, no lift. This is not a tower block.

Thankfully Virgin Media coax is everywhere...

Mine’s the opposite. Landlord wants to provide wayleave but Openreach doesn’t want it for now lol. No Cable TV here so only VDSL2 at the moment. I wouldn’t go with Virgin coax anyway as the jitter and latency is just too problematic for me. Good old copper telephone lines give far lower ping

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

Mine’s the opposite. Landlord wants to provide wayleave but Openreach doesn’t want it for now lol. No Cable TV here so only VDSL2 at the moment. I wouldn’t go with Virgin coax anyway as the jitter and latency is just too problematic for me. Good old copper telephone lines give far lower ping

Jitter and ping isn't bad on the Surrey/Hants area, but is obviously much worse in other areas/cities of the UK. For me a degrading FTTC starting at nearly 60, and ending at 38 Mbps, with an uplink from 6 ending down at 3 Mbps was just too frustrating, and I switched just before the pandemic.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Thankfully Virgin Media coax is everywhere...

Be interesting to see how long it stays operational for, before its finally supplanted by fibre.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Thankfully Virgin Media coax is everywhere...

Be interesting to see how long it stays operational for, before its finally supplanted by fibre.

They’ve recently laid fibre along the road here that already has HFC.

Are they switching to RFoG or FTTH?

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Be interesting to see how long it stays operational for, before its finally supplanted by fibre.

Yes, hopefully by 2030 according to talk on ISPreview, I assume as there is existing cabling, repair/replacement is no issue for wayleave permission.

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

They’ve recently laid fibre along the road here that already has HFC. Are they switching to RFoG or FTTH?

FTTP XGS-PON under what was called Project Mustang; and in theory to offer the same products as nexfibre areas. The RFoG is end of life. (You may have meant that with FTTH but some people use that to mean hyperoptic style dedicated line to block and then ethernet around block).

Phone and TV are all IP based products, so easy to carry over the different mediums for those that need the TV product.

Edited by jchamier (Sat 26-Apr-25 11:06:40)

Repair and/or replacement of existing VM cable plant ought to be generally covered under the terms of an existing wayleave. If Nexfibre want to come in then it may get potentially murkier...

Edited by Pheasant (Sat 26-Apr-25 11:19:04)

In reply to a post by jchamier:

(You may have meant that with FTTH but some people use that to mean hyperoptic style dedicated line to block and then ethernet around block).

I’ve always read FTTP and FTTH as synonymous/ interchangeable terms; simply substituting ’Premises’ for ‘Home’ in the acronym, but otherwise the same architecture.

The old now legacy Hyperoptic-style deployments, of an optical circuit to the ‘building block’ then structured cabling / copper data cabling (aka Cat5e) to the individual apartments within, I would see as coming under the umbrella of FTTB with ‘B’ standing for Building or perhaps Basement depending on the region / authorship.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Repair and/or replacement of existing VM cable plant ought to be generally covered under the terms of an existing wayleave. If Nexfibre want to come in then it may get potentially murkier...

That figures, but I don't think the shared ownership of VM & nexfibre would want to bother with both in one town, given the plan is that both will offer wholesale operations.

VM coax is all underground here, apart from the small (2ft high max) cabinets that are now full of rust and degrading after 30 years, causing issues in strong sunlight.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

I’ve always read FTTP and FTTH as synonymous/ interchangeable terms; simply substituting ’Premises’ for ‘Home’ in the acronym, but otherwise the same architecture.

Ok, makes sense. Neither term helps determine if its point-to-point (as in some countries?) or shared PON.

I would see as coming under the umbrella of FTTB with ‘B’ standing for Building or perhaps Basement depending on the region / authorship.

Gotcha!

In reply to a post by jchamier:

FTTP XGS-PON under what was called Project Mustang; and in theory to offer the same products as nexfibre areas. The RFoG is end of life. (You may have meant that with FTTH but some people use that to mean hyperoptic style dedicated line to block and then ethernet around block).

Phone and TV are all IP based products, so easy to carry over the different mediums for those that need the TV product.

No I meant RFoG where fibre runs to everyone's home and they get a box that converts fibre to co-axial. I wasn't aware it's end of life. That's great news.

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

No I meant RFoG where fibre runs to everyone's home and they get a box that converts fibre to co-axial. I wasn't aware it's end of life. That's great news.

"end of life" as in VM aren't installing any more. I believe because otherwise they could not offer TV to nexfibre areas; and the world is moving slowly to TCP/IP for TV. (e.g. Sky Stream, and Virgin's Stream offering).

RFoG seemed a good idea at the time, a way for cable companies to get physical fibre to properties while continuing to use the same broadband and TV standards their HFC plant is using and indeed the same CMTS chassis, but without substantial extra expense had some huge limitations.

Vanilla RFoG means no OFDMA on return path so no DoCSIS 3.1 upstream. The RFoG ONTs VM were using were restricted to 5-65 MHz return path and even with fibre between home and CMTS there was still the potential to pick up noise inside each home making it wise to avoid some of the spectrum. They ended up sharing about 150 Mbit/s of upstream capacity over 6 3.0 upstream channels on each upstream service group, less than the HFC network's 5 3.0 upstream channels, about 125 Mbit, and 10.4 MHz 3.1 OFDMA block, another 50-70.

VM had been using IPTV for a bunch of channels on the cable TV platform and were always going to move fully IPTV with multicast for what was broadcast at some point so not a major issue for them. Cable gateways may have multiple service flows on them with different quality of service and not a problem to have a best effort one for broadband, another that guarantees symmetrical 64 or 128 kbit for voice on demand and another that is prioritised over the broadband for IPTV.

Thanks, not dissimilar in thought to different services on an office network with VLANs; just a lot larger scale.

Amazingly the real reason for this apparently wasn't so much the network/TV reasons you mention; it is because VMs billing system is mostly handled by the same software platform that their DOCSIS network runs on. So if they use RFoG that can just treat the user as a normal cable user and provisioning etc works as per normal (which is not great, to be added) with little to no system changes.

Project Mustang itself is totally blocked on this. AFIAK they have 25% of the network built now but are unable to service anyone (until very recently) on it. And even then they cannot regrade customers from DOCSIS to XGS-PON whatsoever as the billing systems do not work together so in the limited places it is available it is only possible to do for new customers, which is a bit of a disaster because I imagine higher tier packages are churning like crazy to FTTH networks in congested areas, which is the exact thing Mustang was designed to avoid!

Hi Folks

Openreach have now indicated plans for Full Fibre upgrade on the street on which the Apartment complex is situate unfortunately on the think broadband map the development is marked yellow - no current plans which I presume is because it is a MDU and needs landlord permission etc

I am taking the lead on this for our community and enquired with Openreach initially as to why not within current plans - their answer was a bit vague and pointed out that only the landlord could technically engage on the matter. I have liaised with landlord and they are content to grant permission providing it is non obtrusive and costs nothing

I scoped out the existing wiring for the building today ( built 2019) and the current installation is as follows :

1. Connection from the street underground to level 4 ( ground) carpark master panel serving two further sub units ( DP 1 and DP2) in dry risers on level 4 running up two levels to 6 and down to level 0. (

2.These are purple insulated wires- I presume Cat 5e? that route from the dry risers in each floor across the ceilings in corridors and the flats down to socket in the wall

3. Its all very clean and tidy but the Estate manager is concerned that trying to substitute fibre for these purple ethernet cables will involve breaking the mastic seal on the holes routing the wires - but is this really a problem for BT etc? - the run is quite long from the DP units - is it feasible to have this substituted with fibre and then an ONT in each flat

4. Is fibre to the basement a better solution leaving the ethernet cabling intact to each flat, not disturbic fire resistant mastic etc - would speed be vastly affected - Im sure the run is around 100 feet to my flat,

2.

Firstly, it might not be ethernet-capable. It could have been installed just for telephone wiring, especially if the wall sockets are BT sockets. Ethernet requires all four pairs onto an 8-pin RJ45 socket, in the right sequence.

If it is Cat5e, then it works at 2.5Gbps over 100m. As long as you remain within the distance spec, speed is not affected. Therefore technically, it would possible to order FTTP to the basement, and then ethernet patch to the flats. That's assuming all the purple cables terminate in a patch panel in a suitable location close to where the ONTs would go.

There are practical problems though. There would be a whole bunch of ONTs sitting in the basement. Who pays for the power to these? Who has physical access? Would people be able to repatch into their neighbour's ONT? If not, and the service goes down, what's the process for gaining access?

Running fibre to the flats directly means there is no powered equipment in the path, and therefore very little that can fail. It would also allow future higher speeds once XGS-PON is rolled out.

In reply to a post by alanb2001:

Hi Folks

Openreach have now indicated plans for Full Fibre upgrade on the street on which the Apartment complex is situate unfortunately on the think broadband map the development is marked yellow - no current plans which I presume is because it is a MDU and needs landlord permission etc

I am taking the lead on this for our community and enquired with Openreach initially as to why not within current plans - their answer was a bit vague and pointed out that only the landlord could technically engage on the matter. I have liaised with landlord and they are content to grant permission providing it is non obtrusive and costs nothing

I scoped out the existing wiring for the building today ( built 2019) and the current installation is as follows :

1. Connection from the street underground to level 4 ( ground) carpark master panel serving two further sub units ( DP 1 and DP2) in dry risers on level 4 running up two levels to 6 and down to level 0. (

2.These are purple insulated wires- I presume Cat 5e? that route from the dry risers in each floor across the ceilings in corridors and the flats down to socket in the wall

3. Its all very clean and tidy but the Estate manager is concerned that trying to substitute fibre for these purple ethernet cables will involve breaking the mastic seal on the holes routing the wires - but is this really a problem for BT etc? - the run is quite long from the DP units - is it feasible to have this substituted with fibre and then an ONT in each flat

This is the biggest issue. Firstly, it would not be a substitution as you can't force the flat owners to move to fibre so you need to retain the existing cabling (at least for now) and secondly and much more importantly, those mastic seals are important to the fire performance of the building. The estate manager will be very wary of doing anything which might compromise fire performance so will need to employ appropriately skilled contractors and the services of a competent fire engineer to re-make those mastic seals after fibre has been added and certify the result - I would allow at least £10k for this (a guess, it may be more) - does the estate manager have the authority to reclaim this cost from the flat owners (and do they want to pay?)?

In reply to a post by alanb2001:

4. Is fibre to the basement a better solution leaving the ethernet cabling intact to each flat, not disturbic fire resistant mastic etc - would speed be vastly affected - Im sure the run is around 100 feet to my flat,

The most sensible solution is to deliver fibre to each flat (or at least to a CSP in a service cupboard outside each flat if one exists). The challenge is getting this done whilst ensuring that the estate manager has a piece of paper from a professional fire engineer which means that they won't go to jail if the new fibre provides a path for the spread of fire.

That's assuming all the purple cables terminate in a patch panel in a suitable location close to where the ONTs would go.

I’ll have a ten pound bet with you that they don’t … I expect ‘DP1 and DP2’ are a couple of 10 or 20 pair Krone strips in a box con 201 … the blue/white terminated straight on to the back of the NTE in the flats.

There might be enough slack to do as you suggest, but as you rightly point out, who is going to provide the power for ONT’s elsewhere in the building, etc, etc.

Retro fitting fibre all the way into the flats will be a HUGE pain in [censored] … you always imagine you can just drag cables neatly down the wall cavities, but in reality, it rarely works. You also get punters saying ‘oh, I was told you could put this behind the telly in the living room’ etc , etc.

The best bet would be invisilite as can be glued discreetly along the wall ….

Lots of work, and no one wants to pay for it.


Catch 22