In reply to a post by pluralist:

I read the OP as the block already having the FTTC installed to a switch room, with internal ethernet to each apartment. Some previous responders seem to have missed that.

I suggest the main question is what standard of ethernet cabling it is .

OP says he has regular FTTC broadband currently. There may well be Cat5 (or whatever standard) of data cabling or indeed it may just be regular CW1308 grade telephone cabling to each apartment.

It’s not really relevant - as no FTTP provider will use it. If they do eventually offer service then in 2025 or later it will fibre to each apartment.

P2P as offered by those (small regional AltNet) providers is effectively legacy tech. Gigaclear are now building using PON. Their existing estate of P2P service is not being expanded.

You’ll find that the other 98% of AltNet providers have no intention to move to P2P and their fibre networks are firmly designed as PONs.

There is no superiority for P2P technically either - it’s still a shared / contended service. The backhaul Ethernet uplink from the local switch won’t be sized on a 1:1 basis with the number of serving downstream ports. So if there are 24 or 48 P2P customer connections to that switch then in all likelihood its probably only got a gigabit sized uplink (hopefully a resilient pair) to the rest of their network. Maybe 10 gigabit. But then like any broadband service at the end of the day that capacity is shared across those served subscribers. You don’t have an un-contended personal link on a P2P based broadband network.

So you’re not missing much / anything here by being in an MDU (in another region unserved by those providers) and not getting offered a P2P network.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Though, not always a Technical/Property Manager managing those buildings will tell you the reasons why they have denied one provider or another.

Not always. There are 144 units (flats) in my estate, in 4 physical buildings. Two are three story, two are two story. Many flats have 10+ years of Virgin Cable (coax) on the outside of the building.

AltNet put up telegraph poles in the street and could easily have run from pole to building and down the wall, but zero contact with property owner after residents and companies had attempted to approach. I can't see any change unless law changes.

Not dissimmilar to the problem of electric car charging with smaller MDUs.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

3. Depending on network, differences in how the fibre is reticulated / presented inside the apartment i.e InvisiLight type solutions generally aren’t used outside of MDUs

Lots of it in my SDU. Recommended.

To be honest more likely to find P2P in flats working the same way as the Hyperoptic FTTB installs but instead of copper from the switch to each unit fibre.

Easier to run a fibre to somewhere in the same building and terminate it there than to run it to a powered cabinet or right the way back to an exchange: the apartments provide a convenient place to put a switch.

Failing that can run a high fibre count cable, 288 fibre cable is just over a centimetre in diameter, to a distribution frame or passive cabinet outside and have an optical distribution frame in there so that an operator can patch fibre to different networks. Cable up a riser, break out required amount plus spares on each floor.

MDU much more amenable to point to point as more units closer. Grain replicate this to an extent by building either new build or digging to terraces where the units are a similar distance, zero, between each other but still have to run a dedicated fibre cable from cabinet to unit and the cabinets are further away than a basement or just outside the building.

Edited by XGS_Is_On (Tue 22-Apr-25 14:48:42)

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

3. Depending on network, differences in how the fibre is reticulated / presented inside the apartment i.e InvisiLight type solutions generally aren’t used outside of MDUs

Lots of it in my SDU. Recommended.

You and I are both a bit mad. I think our other halves know it too 🙈🤣

I went mad on Cat6A when we refurbed our old place, with a little bit of SM fibre here and there. I wish now I'd put some more fibre in strategically, but having structured cabling and sat/TV coax in each room was a decent compromise.

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

Easier to run a fibre to somewhere in the same building and terminate it there than to run it to a powered cabinet or right the way back to an exchange: the apartments provide a convenient place to put a switch.

Not really. A P2P network would require a powered switch (including procuring a power supply -- either formally or by coming to some sort of agreement with the managing agent (which may be complex as residents don't like paying for other people's electricity!). PON uses a passive splitter which is much simpler as it requires no power.

In reply to a post by behuk:

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

Easier to run a fibre to somewhere in the same building and terminate it there than to run it to a powered cabinet or right the way back to an exchange: the apartments provide a convenient place to put a switch.

Not really. A P2P network would require a powered switch (including procuring a power supply -- either formally or by coming to some sort of agreement with the managing agent (which may be complex as residents don't like paying for other people's electricity!). PON uses a passive splitter which is much simpler as it requires no power.

The comparison was between MDUs and SDUs, however Hyperoptic have hundreds of switches in MDUs feeding copper ports. Seems it's not an insurmountable obstacle. If not doable a single high fibre count cable in, going to a cabinet that is an ODF and may be the switch too. In both cases much easier than an SDU.

48 SFP+ or even 25G SFP28 ports will fit into a single rack unit so not a big space requirement.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

The only difference I suppose between houses and MDU buildings is that you won't get point to point fibre installations in apartment blocks.

What you will get is PON (Passive Optical Network) and with Openreach it will be GPON and with the other Altnets it will be XGS-PON. This will be installed in the building somewhere in a control/care taking room. The rest of the Fibre cables will travel across all the apartments and floors.

As soon as you sign up to one of the Altnets an engineer will come and install a Fibre drop cable that enters to your flat and you have a choice where you want to install your ONT (Optical Network Termination) usually up to 10 meters into your flat. There is no copper and your existing Openreach copper cable is completely separated.

However, if you do get Virgin Media Nexfibre you won't get ONT but more of a Fibre cable directly plugged into a Hub 5X router.
Most of the Altnets will have 10Gbps symmetrical support though, they aren't yet offering such packages. But that Fibre will push speeds much higher than that in future if the PON gets upgraded. For example, if it was upgraded to 25G-PON you'll get 25Gbps and if it is 50G-PON you'll get 50Gbps. There is always room for such upgrades in future.

The only current limitation with the Altnets such as Community Fibre and Hyperoptic is that you are stuck with them only. You can't choose another ISP on that network. You are also stuck with CGNAT where if portforwarding is required you won't be able to open them. Perhaps, only in Community Fibre above 3Gbps has CGNAT removed. Not sure about the latest 2.5Gbps offerings.

Hyperoptic in the past were building only until the basement and the rest of the flats were fed with Cat5e cables. This gives a 1Gbps limitation. But nowadays Hyperoptic do install Fibre directly into the flats.

You will need to seek permission from your landlord and often you may have no say on what they decide to choose. I am a Hyperoptic Champion of my building here in Central London but my management did not agree with Hyperoptic but only agreed with Community Fibre and most recently with Virgin Media Nexfibre. I'm hoping to get Openreach in future but again, it doesn't entirely depend on me.

The choice you get is not dependent on your desires. You may want one provider but your landlord might agree for something else that you are not interested in.

Openreach literally just came to deploy to our block. They terminate under a man-hole in our parking lot. There's no need for splitter box in the communal area etc. The engineer told me so. I'm guessing individual flats would be treated just like SDUs.

There are variations on how OR can deal with MDU , mainly depending on the number of units etc , if there are a small number of units , lighting up an internal splitter (potentially 30 users ) for a couple of flats / apartments is something of a waste of headend resources / equipment, so the splitter can remain external and basically the few units fed from the equivalent of CBT , it can make sense with a much larger MDU where utilising the capacity of a splitter or splitters can be achieved , they may see the splitter or splitters internally sited in a basement/buddy box .

Give two planners the same job , two slightly different designs may be produced, but optimising the equipment is required.

A MDU development/build I was familiar with , albeit new build apartment blocks rather than a retro fitted MDU ,
10 identical MDU’s of 6 units each , being 2 ground floor , 2 first floor , 2 second floor .
The network design was an intermediate joint served from a large splitter node , this IJ served all 10 identical MDU blocks , a 12 fibre COF into each MDU from the IJ , to a basement box in the ground floor riser , meeting 2 Eazibends to units , 1 and 2 , an internal 12f cable with 4 fibres pushed through to buddy box first floor riser , meeting 2 Ezibends to units 3 and 4 ‘, another 12f internal cable with 2 fibres pushed through to second floor riser etc
All MDU served from the same IJ , 60 flats in total , two fully utilised external splitters in the large splitter node , rather than 10 internal splitters , one within each MDU , with 6 flats each , that would be needlessly wasting headed capacity, IJ’s and cables are cheap , headend capacity isn’t .

Retro fitting MDU is not exactly the same , but the basic principles apply

Edited by Iniltous (Wed 23-Apr-25 16:27:22)