FTTP installations - who's engineers?

My flat will soon have FTTP available to it, so I'm looking at what will be involved to get that installed. I'm currently on FTTC with Plusnet, and am in the habit of switching ISPs at the end of the contract to avoid price big price increases.

There have only been two occasions when an engineer has only done work on the copper line at my flat, and both times they didn't carry out the work correctly. Both times the engineer worked for Kelly, not Openreach themselves. My question is: do Openreach generally send their own engineers to do the fibre install, or do they tend to send contractors from another company? I'm obviously keen to avoid any problems with the FTTP install.

In reply to a post by andrum99:

do Openreach generally send their own engineers to do the fibre install, or do they tend to send contractors from another company?

Its a Russian roulette, I had an Openreach guy but I could have equally had a Kelly's engineer. If you order Sky I would say you're more likely to get an Openreach guy first to do the external work followed by a Sky guy to do the internals. I can't guarantee this but its my opinion.

Edited by PCJM40 (Thu 29-May-25 09:26:57)

Had CIrcet here in Ireland

I see. I've no intention of going with Sky, so it looks like I will just have to take my chances.

Thanks for the replies folks.

I have had good third party installers, and seen the bad. OpenReach tend to be OK/Good but there is still the occasional one where rough work is normal for them - I have again seen all levels.

My own FTTP was third party (cannot remember if it was Kelly or Quinn) - on the day, everything was done as I wanted, and looking back, just one very small niggle.

In reply to a post by andrum99:

My flat will soon have FTTP available to it, so I'm looking at what will be involved to get that installed. I'm currently on FTTC with Plusnet, and am in the habit of switching ISPs at the end of the contract to avoid price big price increases.

There have only been two occasions when an engineer has only done work on the copper line at my flat, and both times they didn't carry out the work correctly. Both times the engineer worked for Kelly, not Openreach themselves. My question is: do Openreach generally send their own engineers to do the fibre install, or do they tend to send contractors from another company? I'm obviously keen to avoid any problems with the FTTP install.

I have the same concern and I'm actually thinking of doing the cabling myself. Once Openreach installs the POE outside your flat's door, you'll know roughly where the entry point will be. You can just run the SC APC to SC APC fibre from that point to where you want the ONT to be installed. When the engineer comes round, just tell them to drill a hole from the PoE into your flat and plug your SC APC male into the receptacle. Show them the other end of the cable and tell them that's where you want the ONT to be installed.

Wait for them to string the flats with InvisiLight 12 and the PoEs first and then things will become much clearer to you.

Feel free to ask if anything I've said doesn't make sense.

Edited by squarecrumpets (Thu 29-May-25 13:19:47)

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

I have the same concern and I'm actually thinking of doing the cabling myself. Once Openreach installs the POE outside your flat's door, you'll know roughly where the entry point will be. You can just run the SC APC to SC APC fibre from that point to where you want the ONT to be installed. When the engineer comes round, just tell them to drill a hole from the PoE into your flat and plug your SC APC male into the receptacle. Show them the other end of the cable and tell them that's where you want the ONT to be installed.

Let me know how you get on with trying this as I will be amazed if you get a successful outcome from doing it. Lots of people put conduit and a pull string in place to make life easier but never seen anyone suggest this before.

Hmmm. Afraid not. They will happily use a customer supplied draw wire all day long, to pull in their own fibre, but they'll (officially at least) baulk at using a customer supplied bit of fibre cabling.

If it's an MDU that's been cabled using POEs and internal InvisiLight cabling, then that's what the installing engineer will run inside your flat. It will be them that supply it.

Remember it's "their" network until and including the actual ONT.

Just tell them where and how you want it run and chill out.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Hmmm. Afraid not. They will happily use a customer supplied draw wire all day long, to pull in their own fibre, but they'll (officially at least) baulk at using a customer supplied bit of fibre cabling.

If it's an MDU that's been cabled using POEs and internal InvisiLight cabling, then that's what the installing engineer will run inside your flat. It will be them that supply it.

Remember it's "their" network until and including the actual ONT.

Just tell them where and how you want it run and chill out.

I was going to use InvisiLight internally. The problem is it'll take at least half a day to route it behind all the furniture, secure to skirting board etc. It's not that easy. In that case I'd rather tell them to install the ONT near the entry point and move it myself afterwards.

The InvisiLight PoE should just provide a female SC connector so it'll be easy to swap out.

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

In that case I'd rather tell them to install the ONT near the entry point and move it myself afterwards.

Maybe you should have put a disclaimer on your post making it clear your recommendation wasn't strictly above board.

Whatever you decide to do with cabling inside your property is up to you. All I will say is have no expectation that the Openreach engineer (or their subby) will use any fibre cabling that you install. They *may* turn a blind eye to it, or they may simply just refuse to use it. Up to them on the day.

As said none of this is really kosher as you're playing on their side of the network boundary. So the risk is with you on any future faults etc.

If you already know that the hideous convoluted route you picture is going to take at least half a day ( bear in mind they will be far from keen to be humping all your furniture about/moving it at all, they ain’t obliged to) I’d say get the ONT fitted just inside the front door, and then you can run your own Ethernet cabling how, and to where you want.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Whatever you decide to do with cabling inside your property is up to you. All I will say is have no expectation that the Openreach engineer (or their subby) will use any fibre cabling that you install. They *may* turn a blind eye to it, or they may simply just refuse to use it. Up to them on the day.

As said none of this is really kosher as you're playing on their side of the network boundary. So the risk is with you on any future faults etc.

Ahh ok thanks for the advice.

In reply to a post by PCJM40:

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

In that case I'd rather tell them to install the ONT near the entry point and move it myself afterwards.

Maybe you should have put a disclaimer on your post making it clear your recommendation wasn't strictly above board.

I wasn't aware this isn't allowed? There are several companies selling fibre extension kits for this task (moving ONT).

It's not an MDU. As I said in reply to another message above, it's just a small 4-in-a-block building, with each flat having it's own copper line fed from a pole. There is also fibre in place to the CBT, and there are what I'm assuming are support cables between poles, including the one feeding the copper lines into the building.

I've no intention of running my own fibre, but I'm just curious what the actual rules are on this. I seem to remember for copper that qualified electricians are allowed to do certain work on the BT side on behalf of the building/land owner, without involving BT. Is there an equivalent dispensation for fibre?

He's talking about his own install, not yours.

In reply to a post by andrum99:

I've no intention of running my own fibre, but I'm just curious what the actual rules are on this. I seem to remember for copper that qualified electricians are allowed to do certain work on the BT side on behalf of the building/land owner, without involving BT. Is there an equivalent dispensation for fibre?

The 'rules' are simple - the fibre is part of the Openreach network. Don't mess with it. No one other than BT employed engineers or their authorised subcontractors can work on it.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by andrum99:

I've no intention of running my own fibre, but I'm just curious what the actual rules are on this. I seem to remember for copper that qualified electricians are allowed to do certain work on the BT side on behalf of the building/land owner, without involving BT. Is there an equivalent dispensation for fibre?

The 'rules' are simple - the fibre is part of the Openreach network. Don't mess with it. No one other than BT employed engineers or their authorised subcontractors can work on it.

And if you move to another network provider you are not allowed to remove the remaining Openreach kit so end up with two (or more) fibre connections on your wall.

I seem to remember for copper that qualified electricians are allowed to do certain work on the BT side on behalf of the building/land owner, without involving BT.

That is incorrect. Only Openreach, or their subby’s are allowed to work on the copper network up to the NTE.

Ah, OK. Thanks for the correction. Every day's a school day.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

And if you move to another network provider you are not allowed to remove the remaining Openreach kit so end up with two (or more) fibre connections on your wall.

No different to the copper era. Why people ripped Openreach master sockets off walls and cut away cabling is really frustrating to the next owner.

In reply to a post by squarecrumpets:

There are several companies selling fibre extension kits for this task (moving ONT).

Anyone selling these kits specifically advertised for moving ONTs I would not consider reputable as they know moving an ONT its not permitted by the infrastructure owner. Selling a box and fibre patch lead in itself is not breaking any rules but using them to do it is.

Long tale but illustrates issues with ISPs and contractors:

A couple of weeks ago I spent 1h 20mins on online chat trying to terminate a business mobile broadband contract with Vodafone.

After convincing him that we were leaving the building and didn't need a cheaper/different service he wanted to sell something so said he could get the broadband in our main premises (also with Vodafone) cheaper. I asked him about copper service termination so he offered FTTP instead of our current FTTC. I told him I wasn't convinced they could get fibre in but he said they could and it would be cheaper. He booked an appointment for the install.

btw - at the end of the conversation he confirms the mobile bb contract would be terminated 12 days before I had asked for in my opening sentence. No it had to be exactly 30 days from the conversation - did I want to cancel the termination?

I later got an email asking me to complete an online form asking questions about the building and existing installation. I included information about it being in a Conservation Area and the existing copper via poles across private land.

Lots of confirmation messages on install date and that MJ Quinn would be doing it.

Well into the 5 h appointment slot a guy from Quinn turns up, takes one look at it and says he can't do it - it'll take four guys from Openreach to complete it.

Next day: another appointment booked for 3 days later. One Openreach engineer turns up . Looks around, confirms the pole that it needs to come from. Minor problem that he can't do the ladder work as there are spiked railings adjacent. Goes on to their voice chat; nearest spiked railing cover 40 miles away but he gets on with the internal work. Before he's finished a message comes through that a supervisor is returning with a spiked railing cover and between them they finish the installation.

Three days later we still don't have the FTTP connection because of an upstream problem but the Openreach intsallers did a good job and were there until 6:15 pm finishing off and trying to get a connection.

I've only ever had subcontractors work on my copper line, except when I've filed a fault, when it has always been Openreach engineers that have turned up. I suspect the same will happen with the fiber install.

On a side note: I'm guessing they will not touch the copper when they come to do the fibre? There's no PSTN on the line anymore - it's actually been disconnected now - the line only has VDSL2 on it. Once fibre is installed to the property, there should be no need to ever revert back to copper - right? I'm thinking about disconnecting the copper at the wee junction box where the black drop wire connects to the internal cable, so I can remove all the internal cabling, as it is tacked onto the skirting / architrave so doesn't look great. The fibre will (almost certainly) be entering the flat in the same room, but I'm going to get them to terminate it there too, and build a wee cabinet for my OPNsense router and a server I'm building.

Edited by andrum99 (Thu 05-Jun-25 18:50:55)

If you want rid of the copper then I would ask the engineer to remove it to the demarcation point and then you can remove the internals.

After we went completely fibre (Zen/CF) we were left with the original 50-year old incoming copper in the hall. I contacted OR via their website and they readily agreed to remove it at no charge. The guy arrived, disconnected the incoming cable, and asked if I'd like him to remove the wall box that the builders had nailed in place. I then filled the hole, redecorated the wall and it's now gone without trace.

Wow - didn't realise they actually did that. Thanks - I will give that a go once I get the fibre installed and working.

In my case the demarc is after some internals, hence the question. It enters in one room via a junction box which connects the drop wire to internal cable, then there's internal cable tacked onto the architrave / skirting through that room, another room, then into where the NTE is.

Update: FTTP is now available to order at my address, so I will be looking to order fairly soon. I'm going to be building a new enclosure to house the ONT, router and some other kit and the jump to FTTP gives me some good motivation to finally get that project built. It will also increase my storage capacity in that room, and make the storage space more flexibly at the same time. I have a problem that any time anything needs done or inspected in the electrics, which is at least once every 5 years (rented flat), it's a major hassle to move stuff out of the way. The new layout will make it much easier to do that occasional shift.