In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Given it is still early days for fttc I do think sky will leave it till 2012 or end of 2011 before offering service as they have invested alot in there own equip

they can still use their LLU kit on FTTC.

Well sky retention team just phoned me about why I was moving from there bb service so had to explain that I could not achieve any more from my 4.5mb line as was looking at fttc so she then proceeded to say virgin would have to dig my property up and install a box at the property at this point I was lmao inside then asked her do you know what FTTC is she said no so explained the answer And the response was of sheer quality "0h the bt infinity thing". But asked if sky were trailing any she said not to general public so who knows they might go with it or lower there prices for retention as offered to muself today

In reply to a post by orly:

Maybe you are still thinking about the time, a few weeks back, when it was you who needed corrected? Hmm. What was it? "forced to use the Home hub" (false) "...pay for delivery of it" (it's supplied free of charge) and "a strict usage policy" (when you were comparing it to a service from another ISP with a 30GB, 16 hour a day peak period!). You also tried the P2P throttling angle but stopped at "serious".

I'm loving the quotations that you've made there that are actually not at all what I said; lets see:

Paying for the delivery of the home hub:

http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProduc... - Look at the bottom in the "Legal Stuff" and you will see there is a compulsory £5 P&P charge that's added onto your bill, you probably didn't even read it.

Forced to use the home hub:

I never said that, merely that I was being forced to have one and thus pay delivery for something I didn't need.

Strict usage policy:

BT has one of the longest most complex T's & C's of any ISP and in it they state that P2P can be throttled at any time.

"Because a lot of P2P traffic is not time-critical, e.g., downloading and uploading TV programmes or movies for later viewing, we treat P2P traffic differently from time-critical traffic (such as surfing, streaming or internet telephony) and apply speed restrictions to all P2P traffic." - BT.com

There is a 300GB FUP in force too, so it's not really "unlimited" like they claim. I'm in no position to talk about just how restrictive their policy / shaping could be, if every restriction they mention was to be used, but I'm pretty sure it beats "no traffic shaping", which is what numerous other FTTC providers are offering.

You are a rude and quite frankly obnoxious person, I think we could all do with a little less of the vitriol with which your replies are delivered.

Edited by deleted (Mon 07-Mar-11 13:45:11)

Seems P2P (generally illegal) downloading is the ultimate factor so say BT decide to throttle bit torrent aggressively 24/7 forever. They don't do this but entertain me on this hypothetical worst case scenario.

Take a figure of say 25KB/sec and then say you only use it for downloading stuff in an "off peak" period, say 9pm to 9am. Remember that BT don't distinguish between peak and off peak but again entertain me.

If you do the maths you see this comes to around 30GB a month. Now, for a lot of ISPs, this is a fair chunk of their "peak" allowances on packages that cost more, so you'd of course be *forced* to do it on their "off peak" periods late at night or at the weekend. Remember that you'll be, in just about every circumstance, paying more for this "privilege" too.

This is of course assumes that BT actually throttle that aggressively, which clearly they don't. Thus it becomes patently obvious to anyone who runs the figures for a few minutes that you can't really lose. The only situation I can think of is someone on these "unlimited off peak" ISPs absolutely caning it for everything it's worth every second of the off peak to download terabytes of stuff. Wonder which ISP will start to suffer first? BT or some minnow?

And if downloading stuff is so mission critical to people, why aren't you all using newsgroups which fly like faecal matter off a shiny metal surface? By paying more to your ISP have you run out of money for a good news service?

Just some stuff for you to ponder.

I agree that stating the service is unlimited is pants and I don't defend BT doing that. I've said it many times which you'll be able to see if you read through my posts. That said 300GB seems sufficient to me.

Did you go with ADSL24 in the end or cancel? What happens if you go over your 1GB a day (16 hour) peak allowance?

Hope my delivery has been sufficiently rude (aka factual) for some people! (and we were never charged 5 quid for a home hub but maybe BT just like us for being long time customers. How much did you get your FTTC compatible router for?)

Edited by orly (Mon 07-Mar-11 17:21:56)

If you do the maths you see this comes to around 30GB a month. Now, for a lot of ISPs, this is a fair chunk of their "peak" allowances on packages that cost more, so you'd of course be *forced* to do it on their "off peak" periods late at night or at the weekend. Remember that you'll be, in just about every circumstance, paying more for this "privilege" too.

Sorry I don't follow you. Unless I'm misreading?

If my peak usage window is 8am-8pm @ 45GB, and is then unlimited during off peak times I don't see an issue?

Even if peak times are 6pm-midnight and unlimited off peak, I am still only using 30GB?

Did you forgot the off peak relaxed (unlimited within reason) bit?

Sorry, I'm confused!

Hang on. Re reading now you've edited!

Nope sorry. Still not sure what you're getting at there?

BT is best.

300GB FUP, and proven fast speeds from what I've seen

It's the fact you essentially can't do any downloading during peak periods on other ISPs at all. It's great that every port is wide open for your use but kinda sucks when you realise you have a very restrictive usage cap in place. Therefore you have to go and schedule stuff overnight. This isn't what I expect to use my FTTC connection for.

But people use BT's supposed throttling as a reason to avoid them while ignoring the punitive caps placed, sometimes for up to 16 hours a day, on other ISPs which cost more.

I'm pointing out that even if BT did throttle ultra aggressively (24/7) you'd still be able to download 30GB each month over a 12 hour stretch. The difference is, with BT, I have a choice of when I do this.

If I'd gone with ADSL24 for example, I'd have had no choice. Just would have had to do it overnight instead.

Add in that BT don't actually throttle stuff anywhere near as badly as some people make out and you see the use of it by those on other ISPs as some sort of stick to beat BT with is actually nothing but twigs.

Unless you're downloading terabytes of stuff off peak on the other ISPs, there's no reason to be anywhere near them and their excessive prices. The ONLY possible user profile where it makes any sense is the one where people are actually using P2P to download many hundreds of gigabytes or terabytes of stuff. Nearly without fail this makes you a massive piracy advocate unless you genuinely have a need to shift "legal" stuff in this quantity I've yet to see anyone who fits this profile around here.

If you aren't one of these people, you should be on BT Infinity.

Add in the fact that these ISPs are equally likely to frown upon the sorts of use that would be occurring. It's why they nearly all have their own AUPs/FUPs/T&Cs that have clauses about penalties for "degrading" the service or the experience of others.

Some seem to be wanting it both ways. BT get lambasted for using the word "unlimited" and for supposed "strict" throttling when it's not unlimited at all (as we all know). At the same time, apparently, BT are simultaneously attracting all the leechers because of this "unlimited" tag.

Then we have throttling bandied about as the crime of the century while getting sometimes 1GB/use per 16 hours a day on other ISPs is apparently "unlimited" because every port is left open. It's kinda like saying "this is a superb stretch of motorway and it even has no speed limit! Shame the car manufacturers have decided a 200CC engine that only goes to 50MPH is all I can have to experience it".

True lunatics around this forum. Need to take a long look at their analytical skills.

Edited by orly (Mon 07-Mar-11 19:18:31)

B. Network Management
4. What is BT's Traffic Management Policy?
BT continuously monitors network performance and reduces the speed available to very heavy users (typically less than 1 per cent of all customers) during a given month to ensure that the service received by other customers is not impacted through extremely heavy usage by a minority of people.
Customers who are classified as very heavy users will experience significantly reduced speed at peak times (typically 5pm-midnight every day but these times may change depending on the demand on the network) for a period of 30 days, or for as long as very heavy use continues. This applies to customers on all Options.
BT Total Broadband Option 3 and BT Infinity Option 2 allow unlimited downloads and uploads within the monthly rental price, so customers on these products will not be charged for over-use. However, this does not preclude BT from reducing your speed if you are a heavy user in order to protect the experience for the rest of our customers.
We may need to vary the policy from time to time to ensure the best possible experience for all our customers. This site will always be kept up to date with the latest information.

5. What is BT's policy on Peer-to-Peer (P2P) applications?
P2P refers to certain applications that enable files and program sharing between groups of people logged on to a P2P network. Because they use uploads and downloads and are often left running 24/7, they consume significant bandwidth, even when being used by just a small number of customers.
Because a lot of P2P traffic is not time-critical, e.g., downloading and uploading TV programmes or movies for later viewing, we treat P2P traffic differently from time-critical traffic (such as surfing, streaming or internet telephony) and apply speed restrictions to all P2P traffic. We manage these restrictions daily based on the demands on the network, but downstream restrictions will typically be in place 4pm - midnight on weekdays and 9am - midnight on the weekend. Upstream restrictions may be in place at other times.
You can, of course, still use P2P services, but downloads will take longer during the peak times.

-----------

I know we have been through all this, but I am trying to emphasise the point that the highlighted texts are the caveats that allow them to manage as much as they like. You can see that if that becomes necessary the P2P users will be hit the hardest.

The point that keeps coming up is that if all the heavy users switch to BT infinity, then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy!

I understand that smaller ISP's may have similar restrictions, but they aren't dragging in the heavy users as intentionally as BT with their "all you can eat" marketing

Now if they can show the figures as to the extra capacity they are implementing to satisfy that demand, it might instil some confidence in the discerning prospective customer.

Perhaps someone could advise on the formula that is used for network capacity per customer and whether that is higher or lower for the smaller "niche" providers?

And can they provide an equal or better service to the bigger ISP's by picking their customers more wisely?

Would be interesting.

Edited by mrnelster (Mon 07-Mar-11 19:57:31)