Exactly. And so back around in a circle we go for another 10 years of backward broadband seeing us slip further and further behind other countries.

In an ideal world it would probably be nice.

You have a separate company or co-operative funded by the government and ISPs which builds and maintains the network (hopefully to a superb level) and then the ISPs can compete to offer the services over it.

But this isn't really an ideal world.

In what respect? BT are already rolling out FTTC/FTTP now, they are putting in more fibre than any other country in the world out of their own pockets.

Why don't Virgin just cover the other 50% of the country, no reliance on BT then.

In reply to a post by GMAN98:

In what respect? BT are already rolling out FTTC/FTTP now, they are putting in more fibre than any other country in the world out of their own pockets.

Why don't Virgin just cover the other 50% of the country, no reliance on BT then.

Virgin Media were rolling out FTTC over a decade ago.

The reason they don't cover the other 50% of the country is because the [long term] ROI isn't attractive from a private company point of view especially when the other player in their areas has the advantage of owning suitable ducting already to put the fibre down, but chooses not to until under threat.

Which is the fundamental issue underlying this entire thread.

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

There are informal discussions going on with repect to setting up a new local loop company should BT continue to prove to be obstructive. The major UK ISP's and Virgin media have been considering this as an option. The Virgin Media loop would form the core of this new network. Each of the major UK ISP's would be shareholders in the new company. A combined local loop company would have far greater financial support to enble the rollout it also makes it far easier to get government & EU funding as the network is neutral and favours no one supplier

Tall stories.

I'm out

And BT were prevented by Oftel all those years ago from putting fibre in the ground to give Mercury a chance to expand.

So the other 50% of the country isn't attractive to Virgin? What about the current 50% weren't BT there with their ducts then?

In reply to a post by Bob_s2:

There are informal discussions going on with repect to setting up a new local loop company should BT continue to prove to be obstructive. The major UK ISP's and Virgin media have been considering this as an option. The Virgin Media loop would form the core of this new network. Each of the major UK ISP's would be shareholders in the new company. A combined local loop company would have far greater financial support to enble the rollout it also makes it far easier to get government & EU funding as the network is neutral and favours no one supplier

Two of the UK's bigger ISPs, Sky and TalkTalk, are doing an FTTP trial in North West London, Virgin Media have done their own trials with new poles.

I have heard nothing to suggest that Virgin Media along with Talk Talk, Sky, etc, are in co-operation to build a network and based on past experience this seems quite unlikely.

In reply to a post by GMAN98:

And BT were prevented by Oftel all those years ago from putting fibre in the ground to give Mercury a chance to expand.

That's what happens when you privatise something that doesn't meet the rules normally required to make a privatisation work: the existence of a market.

You end up applying a series of sticking plasters through regulation which, in the end, helps nobody. This continues to this day. A few Conservative ministers did quite well out of the privatisation though IIRC.

BT is hardly what you would call a proper "privatised company" since it has a Crown guarantee on its pensions. If it were to fail, we all pay.

In reply to a post by GMAN98:

So the other 50% of the country isn't attractive to Virgin? What about the current 50% weren't BT there with their ducts then?

The cable network was built for TV services, something which BT's network couldn't offer and thanks to the lack of investment over the years, cannot compete with - this is going to be one of the blocks in getting people to migrate away from VM cable to BT's FTTC service - slower top speeds for those who want them, and a complete lack of a comparable TV service. The only area in which BT have the edge at the moment that I can see is upload speeds and not by any huge margin which forms a key selling point.

It just so happens that "cable" was a FTTC service which now happens to be able to support superfast broadband speeds. Whether that's down to luck or forward planning I don't know.

While we are on the subject of upload speed, there has been nothing stopping Virgin from (and now) offering much greater uploads speeds, better than anything BT do at the moment.

In fact there has been nothing stopping them from offering 100Mbps download for many many many years, so.... don't just look at BT when it comes to lack of broadband progression when all Virgin needed to do was open the taps up and put better CPE on the end

And if they had done that 10yrs ago that might have pushed BT to pull its finger out....

Edited by deleted (Sun 10-Apr-11 19:47:20)

In reply to a post by GMAN98:

While we are on the subject of upload speed, there has been nothing stopping Virgin from (and now) offering much greater uploads speeds, better than anything BT do at the moment.

In fact there has been nothing stopping them from offering 100Mbps download for many many many years, so.... don't just look at BT when it comes to lack of broadband progression when all Virgin needed to do was open the taps up and put better CPE on the end

And if they had done that 10yrs ago that might have pushed BT to pull its finger out....

Upload speeds on domestic broadband connections have never been as much of a selling point as download speeds and this remains so. BT is ahead of the game here, but I'm not convinced the demand is there yet. As you say, though, Virgin could respond reasonably quickly.

BT's "definition" of broadband is an ADSL capable line, that is to say, 135kbps downstream. VM's "definition" is 10Mbps. I can't see how BT is in the same league, or what Virgin Media have "held back on".

Innovation is generally created by private companies who have to attract customers and who have something to lose, not by privatised monopolies who have nothing to lose while the line rental keeps rolling in.