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Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sun 25-Nov-12 22:25:48
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Re: Speeds after move


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
I think he's taking the mickey out of the poster.

I'm hoping it wasn't really supposed to be a reply to me, just a lazy last-post reply.

Am I the poster you talk about there?

The content of my reply really went to cover a lot of people's posts on here, so it wasn't *directly* a reply to you. However, your post talked about specific parameters and some difficulties, so I definitely chose it as the best individual post to use the "reply" button on. Unfortunately, there is no ability to post a generic reply to many posts...

I've also been out and not had time to look for some stuff that shows how wrong he is about error stats on FTTC, which could well be what BatBoy is on about. I can't be bothered tonight.

If that is something on the Error Stats in my post, them I'm all ears. I'm feeling my way at understanding how they work in VDSL2, comparing it against how I know other protocols work, and guessing where need be.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 25-Nov-12 22:33:21
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Re: Speeds after move


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
Re error stats, my most definitive post would be if I could find a set of my xdslcmd stats from when I unlocked my modem and before I got put on interleaved. I'm almost certain FECs are shown. If I'm right, it isn't just the HG612 GUI that is dodgy.

I'm just not in the mood to find them, I'm afraid. A lot on my mind.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 53.5/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 25-Nov-12 22:34:25)

Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sun 25-Nov-12 23:00:39
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Re: Speeds after move


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
This is the part that is wrong:
In reply to a post by WWWombat:
Another pair of useful parameters are the size of the small data blocks protected by FEC (aka Forward Error Correction), and the size of the parity data that does the protection. This information is held in these parameters:

B: 63 237
I: 80 127
N: 80 254


For downstream, my understanding is that B gives the amount of user data within an RS block (an RS block is the lump that is protected by FEC, and spread out by interleaving), and N gives the total size of the block. That means (N-B) is the parity (protection) data, which is an overhead.

Here, an RS block is 80 bytes long, carry 63 bytes of user data, and 17 bytes of overhead parity data.

The line is carrying 63/80 user data, or 79%, The parity overhead is 17/80, or 21%.

So... if the line's attainable rate is 64Mbps, you can see it really can only carry 79% of that as user data - or about 51Mbps. The rest of the "attainable rate" *is* still being used to carry useful information - but it is used as part of the FEC process, rather than directly for end-user-data.


It is better written as:

Another couple of useful parameters give the size of the data blocks protected by "Forward Error Correction" (aka FEC), and the size of the parity data that gets added for the protection. This information is held in these parameters:

R: 16 16
N: 80 254


For downstream, my understanding is that there is a missing parameter K that gives the amount of user data within an RS block (an RS block is the lump that is protected by FEC, and spread out by interleaving), and N gives the total size of the block. Parameter R specifies how much of the RS block is dedicated to the parity (protection) data, which is an overhead. Therefore N=K+R.

These additional "parity" bytes, through a miracle of maths, allows the modem to fix a small number of errors in the user data - thereby saving the transmitter from having to re-transmit. The downside is that the parity data represents a permanent overhead.

Here, an RS block is 80 bytes long, carry 64 bytes of user data, and 16 bytes of overhead parity data.

The line is carrying 64/80 user data, or 80%, The parity overhead is 16/80, or 20%.

So... if the line's attainable rate is 64Mbps, you can see it really can only carry 80% of that as user data - or about 51Mbps. The rest of the "attainable rate" *is* still being used to carry useful information - but it is used as part of the FEC process, rather than directly for end-user-data.

Two further parameters specify the way that interleaving works:
D: 861 1
I: 80 127

"I" defines the size of blocks that get interleaved, while "D" specifies how far apart the output bytes will be. In this case, byte 0 (first on the input stream) will be transmitted first, byte 1 will be transmitted 861st, while byte 80 (first in the second block) will be transmitted second.

When both interleaving and FEC are combined, the effect is that a burst of noise hits a number of consecutive bytes within the "interleaved" stream. However, when they are de-interleaved, the broken bytes end up within different RS blocks.

Statistically, not many bytes within each RS block get destroyed by the noise, and the problem is sufficiently small that it can be corrected using the parity bytes.

If it turns out that FEC can't correct the errors, DLM might intervene again to turn interleaving up higher - in which case more parity bytes are likely to be needed with fewer user data bytes.

My Conclusion:
Graphing "I" and/or "D" will give an indication of the extra latency being added by interleaving (the delay is actually given by "I" multiplied by "D").

Graphing "R" and "N" (or percentages based on these numbers) will show how much capacity is being "stolen" by the parity overhead of FEC.


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Standard User Ixel
(member) Mon 26-Nov-12 11:01:24
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Re: Speeds after move


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
FEC's show in some fashion because the line is never truly fastpath even at a depth of 1 with no INP or delay?

I had a small amount of FEC's occasionally on the FB7390 when there was no INP or delay (no interleaving). The same goes for the HG612 (currently present on the upstream). The ECI on the other hand... the statistics for errors don't make any sense so I'm ignoring those.

Here's my HG612 statistics at present time of posting.

Text
1
23
45
67
89
1011
1213
1415
1617
1819
2021
2223
2425
2627
2829
3031
3233
3435
3637
3839
4041
4243
4445
4647
4849
5051
5253
5455
5657
5859
6061
6263
6465
6667
6869
7071
7273
7475
7677
7879
8081
8283
8485
8687
8889
9091
9293
9495
9697
9899
100101
102103
Max:    Upstream rate = 28562 Kbps, Downstream rate = 93388 Kbps
Path:   0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 59999 Kbps 
Link Power State:       L0Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17aTPS-TC:                 PTM Mode
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ONLine Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        15.1            12.1Attn(dB):        0.0             0.0
Pwr(dBm):        12.5            6.8                        VDSL2 framing
                        Path 0B:              239             236
M:              1               1T:              64              5
R:              0               16S:              0.1273          0.3771
L:              15081           5410D:              1               1
I:              240             255N:              240             255
                        Counters                        Path 0
OHF:            45263048                1416347OHFErr:         674             2
RS:             0               2544210RSCorr:         0               81
RSUnCorr:       0               0 
                        Path 0HEC:            5355            0
OCD:            0               0LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    2084370172              0Data Cells:     387254187               0
Drop Cells:     0Bit Errors:     0               0
 ES:             516             2
SES:            5               0UAS:            190             190
AS:             92561 
                        Path 0INP:            0.00            0.00
PER:            2.03            6.12delay:          0.00            0.00
OR:             90.32           203.67 
Bitswap:        1618            3 
Total time = 1 days 1 hours 49 min 41 secFEC:            0               0
CRC:            3152            0ES:             516             2
SES:            5               0UAS:            190             190
LOS:            5               0LOF:            5               0
Latest 15 minutes time = 4 min 41 secFEC:            0               0
CRC:            5               0ES:             3               0
SES:            0               0UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0LOF:            0               0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 secFEC:            0               0
CRC:            3               0ES:             2               0
SES:            0               0UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0LOF:            0               0
Latest 1 day time = 1 hours 49 min 41 secFEC:            0               0
CRC:            57              0ES:             43              0
SES:            0               0UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0LOF:            0               0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 secFEC:            0               0
CRC:            3095            0ES:             473             2
SES:            5               0UAS:            190             190
LOS:            5               0LOF:            5               0
Since Link time = 1 days 1 hours 42 min 41 secFEC:            0               81
CRC:            674             2ES:             509             2
SES:            0               0UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0LOF:            0               0

Edited by Ixel (Mon 26-Nov-12 11:02:00)

Standard User deleted
(deleted) Mon 26-Nov-12 16:40:19
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Re: Speeds after move


[re: Ixel] [link to this post]
 
That's interesting...

The "D" parameter - interleaving depth - is 1, suggesting that there is no interleaving going on.

However, the "R" parameter is 16, suggesting that there are parity bytes being sent, and that the FEC process is working. 16 bytes out of 255 is about 6% of the upstream capacity being used for protection.

Interesting... as, in ADSL days, FEC would only be present when interleaving was turned on. It appears that, in VDSL2, FEC can be present alone.

I suspect that the channel is still fastpath - as it is interleaving that adds delays, not FEC.

That's upstream. Downstream is different...

There, there is no interleaving, and no FEC. It's kinda strange that the actual downstream rate is set to 60Mbps. Ah - except it is *so* close that it probably means DLM has "banded" you into that speed. Strange, then, that it has set a speed band, but not turned FEC on.
Standard User Ixel
(member) Mon 26-Nov-12 18:22:23
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Re: Speeds after move


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
Yes, that is what I find very odd. But I've tried various things to see if I could upset DLM, e.g. several re-syncs in a short time (short time being less than an hour), but to no avail can I make it do anything worse or better, unless the resync threshold is much greater than that of course. So that's why I wonder if I've somehow frozen DLM (confused the algorithm), wierd I know but I can't assume much else. This goes back to when I was playing around with the FB 7390 and inducing caps of my own, all the way down to 32,000Kbps at one point (for a couple of days), and that was the last cap I did. In the past the cap usually goes within a couple of days, but I've never been as low as 32,000Kbps which is close to the fault rate threshold I believe.

One other idea I had was, given I was (if I'm right) close to the FRT for a couple of days, comparing to my normal sync that DLM must have a history of, perhaps it determined it should disable all interleaving in order to try and prevent me going below the FRT (even though I was controlling the cap, it could've perceived that low speed as a fault).

Hmm, the mysteries of DLM.
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