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Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sat 03-May-14 23:27:17
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Re: Overbuilding


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
Without buffering an overbooked network will simply replace latency with packet loss


And that, if you knew anything about TCP/IP would explain everything. What does a TCP/IP implementation do when packets are delayed? Nothing. What about if they're dropped? It throttles the stream, reducing its internal estimate of the available bandwidth. So the way to signal that the link is full is to drop packets. Something like RED does this rather crudely but still effectively, while newer strategies like CoDel are smarter about it. But just having larger and larger queues makes it worse.

and without queuing, which requires buffers, it's impossible to apply QoS to a network, which is essential in enterprise environments.


Only very tiny buffers are needed for this purpose. We need keep only enough packets to fill the pipe for our anticipated maximum latency. Any more packets (yes even if you think they're super-important urgent double-plus high-priority) are just bloat, our refusal to drop them makes things worse because it removes the feedback for the TCP/IP stack.

Surely having enough bandwidth out of the buffer to ensure it doesn't start to fill is the way to go


All else being equal having infinite bandwidth would be great. But we can't afford infinite bandwidth. So, we will have less bandwidth than some upstreams and that download of the entire world map at 1 pixel per 100 metres will have to take a little longer than zero seconds. The download will fill any available buffer. The larger the queue the worse for everyone except the world map downloader, for them everything is very, very slightly better if they can have a huge queue. Fitting the whole map in the queue would mean that they get it a tiny bit faster, and the "only" downside is that the entire system is completely unusable for everyone else sharing the link meanwhile.

, or if that's not feasible the approach that I've seen more commonly which is not to use FIFO but to use slightly smarter queuing which favours smaller packets over larger ones?


This hack is a slight improvement but it relies on a heuristic (guessing that "important" packets will be smaller) which is not reliable. Some things will work better, others will not. Still, it does have one nice feature which is that it doesn't require configuration.

You're aware of weighted fair queuing, for example, which works well to avoid single high bandwidth flows hogging bandwidth, or class-based H-FSC which is effective as a scheduling algorithm across TCP and UDP traffic?


We're actually talking (in case you've forgotten) about residential broadband, which means anything that requires setup doesn't get done. When step 1 is "read this manual about how to configure your broadband for best VoIP performance" virtually nobody will get to step 2. A lot of WiFI APs with bad buffer bloat can be fixed by replacing their firmware with images from the Internet. Guess how many people do that? Virtually nobody.

Experienced network engineers tend to see their own bit but tend to ignore what's actually running on the network at layer 4 and above. A VoIP call can cope with a little delay, what it can't cope with is loss.


Many years ago now I did a presentation in which the audience included some people from big cell phone companies. We were demoing a VoIP system as part of a larger concept, and when it was apparent that our methodology had introduced 200ms latency (which we'd been pretty impressed by considering what we were doing) the cell phone engineers laughed their heads off. Nobody wants that, it's garbage, their customers would leave in droves.

Loss is much more acceptable than latency. Codecs like GSM designed for raw radio with mobile endpoints are tolerant of bit loss, but even the Internet codecs like Opus are tolerant of packet loss and perform "concealment" when they detect a lost packet. Obviously it's not ideal to drop anything, but dropping one packet now is definitely better than delivering the next dozen packets late.

My employer's products are built both to apply QoS and to mitigate packet loss on the WAN, not to introduce loss by dropping VoIP traffic because another flow is trying to eat through the bandwidth.


You will glad to know that even older techniques like RED will tend to drop mostly the "other flow" in these circumstances. Not because of any clever (and thus never to be configured by real end users) QoS but because statistically the larger flow has more packets in it and thus will get hit more often.

The simplest way to prevent serialisation is to throw more bandwidth at a problem. The best way is to apply QoS, with maximum delay parameters set on multiple leaky-bucket classes of traffic. A packet spends too long in a queue it gets dropped, the VoIP / real-time / interactive queue gets emptied first.


Leaky buckets are cool, we had leaky bucket based traffic management in a shared house I lived in about 10-15 years ago. But (a) they need configuring by the end user which won't happen and (b) they can't work around some bloated buffer inside a modem or similar. For that you need active management.

Incidentally I can assure you that 20Mbit/s doesn't start to feel so nice when you have an unmanaged link and one person hammering at it with downloads. It is precisely to avoid such issues that I have 2 load balanced FTTC lines.


I suspect that most people would rather spend half as much (just one line) and have equipment that didn't encourage Buffer Bloat, if only they knew the difference. The good news is that fixing this doesn't really cost anything, we just need to dribble the relevant best practices into Linux and other code used to build consumer network gear and it'll "magically" make everything better.

This is quickly going off topic, please Google "Buffer Bloat" if you care to know more.
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sun 04-May-14 00:07:57
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Re: Overbuilding


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by tialaramex:
Without buffering an overbooked network will simply replace latency with packet loss


And that, if you knew anything about TCP/IP would explain everything. What does a TCP/IP implementation do when packets are delayed? Nothing. What about if they're dropped? It throttles the stream, reducing its internal estimate of the available bandwidth. So the way to signal that the link is full is to drop packets. Something like RED does this rather crudely but still effectively, while newer strategies like CoDel are smarter about it. But just having larger and larger queues makes it worse.


I would point out you mentioned VoIP as a potential issue. Increased latency will affect throughput, it affects BDP. I'm quite aware of how TCP/IP works but thanks for the patronising comment.

In reply to a post by tialaramex:
Only very tiny buffers are needed for this purpose. We need keep only enough packets to fill the pipe for our anticipated maximum latency. Any more packets (yes even if you think they're super-important urgent double-plus high-priority) are just bloat, our refusal to drop them makes things worse because it removes the feedback for the TCP/IP stack.


I don't think I disagreed, I merely said that some buffer is required.

In reply to a post by tialaramex:
All else being equal having infinite bandwidth would be great. But we can't afford infinite bandwidth. So, we will have less bandwidth than some upstreams and that download of the entire world map at 1 pixel per 100 metres will have to take a little longer than zero seconds. The download will fill any available buffer. The larger the queue the worse for everyone except the world map downloader, for them everything is very, very slightly better if they can have a huge queue. Fitting the whole map in the queue would mean that they get it a tiny bit faster, and the "only" downside is that the entire system is completely unusable for everyone else sharing the link meanwhile.


Hence WFQ.

In reply to a post by tialaramex:
We're actually talking (in case you've forgotten) about residential broadband, which means anything that requires setup doesn't get done. When step 1 is "read this manual about how to configure your broadband for best VoIP performance" virtually nobody will get to step 2. A lot of WiFI APs with bad buffer bloat can be fixed by replacing their firmware with images from the Internet. Guess how many people do that? Virtually nobody.


Which has what to do with FTTP versus FTTC? I thought you were discussing something relevant like core networks, not CPE?

In reply to a post by tialaramex:
Many years ago now I did a presentation in which the audience included some people from big cell phone companies. We were demoing a VoIP system as part of a larger concept, and when it was apparent that our methodology had introduced 200ms latency (which we'd been pretty impressed by considering what we were doing) the cell phone engineers laughed their heads off. Nobody wants that, it's garbage, their customers would leave in droves.

Loss is much more acceptable than latency. Codecs like GSM designed for raw radio with mobile endpoints are tolerant of bit loss, but even the Internet codecs like Opus are tolerant of packet loss and perform "concealment" when they detect a lost packet. Obviously it's not ideal to drop anything, but dropping one packet now is definitely better than delivering the next dozen packets late.


Some loss may be more acceptable than some jitter. Latency is an unavoidable fact of life. I often place VoIP calls via California and don't really see issues. Jitter or loss are a somewhat different matter.


In reply to a post by tialaramex:
Leaky buckets are cool, we had leaky bucket based traffic management in a shared house I lived in about 10-15 years ago. But (a) they need configuring by the end user which won't happen and (b) they can't work around some bloated buffer inside a modem or similar. For that you need active management.


This is the whole CPE versus core network thing. For some reason CPE network stacks on non-professional kit tend to be dire.

In reply to a post by tialaramex:
I suspect that most people would rather spend half as much (just one line) and have equipment that didn't encourage Buffer Bloat, if only they knew the difference. The good news is that fixing this doesn't really cost anything, we just need to dribble the relevant best practices into Linux and other code used to build consumer network gear and it'll "magically" make everything better.

This is quickly going off topic, please Google "Buffer Bloat" if you care to know more.


Agreed. I'm very aware what buffer bloat is, I encounter it from time to time generally due to misconfiguration, however due to the nature of the equipment I work with there are a few different buffers involved. It's also a fully functional TCP proxy which converts standard TCP flows into HSTCP then back again on the other side, doing some coalescing, header compression, etc.

But, hey, I know nothing about TCP/IP or buffer bloat, so I'd best stop debugging issues of substandard TCP performance due to poor LAN performance causing buffer bloat.
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sun 04-May-14 00:09:35
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Re: Overbuilding


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Not sure how many houses have actually been built at Ebbsfleet, Google satellite still looks the same as when I visited the site four years ago.

Fibre Voice Access and battery more than fit the voice requirements, and if there was a fire in a home, you don't hang around to ring fire bridge you get out.


Given Virgin Media are apparently planning a move to VoIP over HFC I sincerely hope that FVA with battery back up fits the requirements else Virgin might have some trouble ahead.


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Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sun 04-May-14 02:23:18
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Re: FTTP - can residential accounts get it?


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:
The 2.5 billion commercial expenditure figure that Openreach bandy about is likewise laughable. Thanks to their cutting the FTTP down from 25% of the NGA deployment to virtually nothing outside of subsidised Cornwall that has left a figure closer to 1.3 billion of CapEx, not 2.5 billion. A large proportion of the 'commercial' brownfield FTTP has been in Milton Keynes and has been a complete disaster with an overbudget, delayed roll out. They deployed in the wrong places and on hindsight know it.


I don't think it was the wrong place. They had some massive issues in the area because of the way their network was deployed. Most of the FTTP properties are lucky to get 1Mbit ADSL. It was also easier to trial FTTP in MK as we already have ducting into each house. A monkey with a blindfold on could install the network. However, this is Openreach we are dealing with and they managed to screw it up. They used MK trial as an excuse to prove how expensive FTTP was by doing an FTTP trial in an area where it should have been VERY inexpensive for them. Quite an achievement.

Also the deployment figures quoted in the press in 2010 / 2011 are not correct. The deployment covers near 7,000 properties but isn't complete. In many cases areas of estates, whole sides of roads or individual properties have been missed. Openreach's latest STUNT was an attempt to submit the missing areas as requiring BDUK funding. They have, however, voluntarily withdrawn them from their BDUK programme and are now considering approaches for inclusion of around 1100+ properties into the commercial programme from 2015 onwards. However, I suspect they will try and wiggle out of it because they can't go down the FTTC route easily.

So the trial is very much delayed. They started in 2010 and still haven't finished it.

G.FAST sounds good but I'm quite surprised that they haven't done it on my estate. We have a sole engineer currently deploying non-trial commercial FTTP to 300 homes but from what I've seen I think the sneaky *****ers are deploying higher split 64-128 FTTP. I've got a sneaky idea they might be doing CWDM to get 128 lines out of 1 fibre. I also have a sneaky they might be trying to run the mux over longer distances to allow them to move the active equipment into core exchanges rather than metro nodes. BT research have done a lot of work on rubbish like that.

Regards,


Gareth
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sun 04-May-14 06:31:46
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Re: Overbuilding


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
you forget fTTC is still a variable product like adsl, yes the numbers are much better, but there will be people on FTTC with a sub 20mbit connection and upstream not a whole lot better than adsl2+.

Ignition is probably right that this will all end up on FTTP, the question is when. Openreach seem perfectly happy to do it one step at a time, with the fibre creeping slowly closer to the home as it maxes out the time they can use old infrastructure and avoid spending as long as possible. I am not an exec of BT so I am not going to claim I know whats best for that company but it is clear they are very conservative when it comes to new technology and investment.

I do feel tho what they have done on FTTP is a complete balls up, this wont help matters as now they will be even more shy of FTTP, hence the increase of pricing on FTTPoD.

Edited by Chrysalis (Sun 04-May-14 06:32:54)

Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sun 04-May-14 06:48:50
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Re: Overbuilding


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
did verizon in america even state FTTP paid for itself by the reduced maintenance costs?

Edited by Chrysalis (Sun 04-May-14 06:59:04)

Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sun 04-May-14 06:57:10
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Re: Overbuilding


[re: deleted] [link to this post]
 
actually since tcp/ip performance is based on RTT as well as link capacity, it WILL slow down if latency of packets increases unless there is sufficient buffers allocated to handle it. By that I dont mean buffer bloat supplied by the isp, I mean buffers at the end points. This is why I often state interleaving DOES harm performance as it increases RTT. So the TCP send window and TCP receive window.

Also packetloss will kill performance if present, the recent BTw capacity issues only highlighted that. There is a big difference between temporary small amount of dropped packets when TCP has to throttle itself, to constant large packetloss from a backhaul supplier, TCP wont handle the latter well in terms of performance. So in terms of network congestion, delayed packets is favourable to dropped packets.

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 04-May-14 10:06:52
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Re: Overbuilding


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Put it this way, when they have the fight over whether to do FTTP or NOT, I suspect once someone asks who is going to beat us to it? And the answer is no one currently then they decide to carry on current stepped system.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sun 04-May-14 11:23:14
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Re: Overbuilding


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
you forget fTTC is still a variable product like adsl, yes the numbers are much better, but there will be people on FTTC with a sub 20mbit connection and upstream not a whole lot better than adsl2+.


I don't think I have forgotten this. My point isn't that nobody should get FTTP, but that the appetite doesn't and won't exist to justify pre-emptive FTTP in areas which can and do get good FTTC service.

Relatively high density housing means the UK is a good place to do FTTC. I grew up in a dormitory village, where you could hear the cattle in the fields yet you were only a tube ride from the City. Despite the expanse of open countryside on all sides, planning regulations combined with commercial sense meant dense housing. The village did not have a telephone exchange (with only a few thousand residents why should it) but it did have half a dozen BT cabinets. You will not be surprised to know that typical ADSL2+ bandwidth was 2Mbps while most residents can get far more than 20Mbps now that FTTC is rolled out.

I have no doubt that people in that village will have pressed for FTTP rather than FTTC - to be paid for either by BT or failing that from central funds no doubt. You don't get rich by spending your own money. But IMNSHO they're adequately served by FTTC and refusing to indulge them shows good sense.
Standard User deleted
(deleted) Sun 04-May-14 11:54:18
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Re: Overbuilding


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
did verizon in america even state FTTP paid for itself by the reduced maintenance costs?


Their maintenance costs of FTTP, after teething troubles, are about 1/5th those of POTS.

Edited by deleted (Sun 04-May-14 11:55:13)

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