On EO lines:
The addition of a PCP is what makes EO lines more expensive than a bog-standard FTTC installation, and we are certainly seeing upgrades happen for quite a few places within BDUK, at least for the EO lines close to the exchange.

That tells us that just adding a PCP is expensive enough that it can't be done commercially, even where there is almost no distance to have to feed the fibre, but is cheap enough that it can be done within the 90% targets (ie isn't a mega-expensive option).

In the case of remote EO lines, I guess they have the same bare expense for adding a PCP cabinet but have additional expense comes in the form of the distance that fibre has to be fed; an obvious question is whether remote EO lines are ducted in a similar manner to "standard" E-side cables. If there is ducting & space, the fibre can get there, but if the EO lines get out to the remote site in a non-standard way, then this will act as an additional barrier to installation.

On cabinet size:
We also know that commercial upgrades seemed to happen when cabinet served more than 300 properties. The North Yorkshire BDUK project (phase 1) averages around 220 properties per cabinet, but I reckon the smallest ones are around 100 properties.

So 150 properties would probably be a big enough cluster, if it had a cabinet, to get included in phase 1 BDUK projects, but would have been too small to be done commercially.

Being EO, plus being remote, and being limited size makes 3 things that count against you when being measured against other communities. My gut feel is that this would make you borderline for inclusion in a 90% target.

However, I suspect that you would be easily included in a 95% target - the final 5% really does come from individual properties, and groups of less than 40 properties. Perhaps the next phase will be better news.

wow thanks WWWombat today sure is a school day for me I appreciate all that info.

When my area was uppgraded to FTTC they installed 3 cabinets within 200 meters vacinity of the cluster of EO houses, really close. Perhaps im being daft but currently all the EO houses use telegraph poles (perhaps ever line uses these, im not a phone spotter). The pole I am services by (which is in my garden grrr) must be about 50 meters as the crow flies from one of the cabinets. Surely they could have rearrange these lines to go to the cabinet without the need of much construction. Route all the lines to one (or more) cabinets and add as new lines to the cabinet. I could see the point in doing nothing yet if the cabinets were miles away. If capacity was an issue then use a bigger cabinet. Surely in the long run that would be cheaper than doing the work in 5 years time.

What really bamboozles me is there is a house in the middle of the cluster thats connected to a FTTC cabinet. One random house lol

In reply to a post by ian72:

Do your numbers include the money that BT put in for each of the projects? That can also vary wildly between counties so in some they will be providing a lot more per household than others.

No, the numbers are for just the public subsidies involved.

I have a slightly different view of the way BT's internal investment applies though...

As the whole BDUK process uses a gap funding model, I assume that means there is a maximum amount (per property) that BT are willing to invest (and which can be calculated from the threshold at which they decide cabinets were not viable commercially). From this assumption, I think that BT's portion of the funding should amount to that maximum amount per property... for every single property within the BDUK target.

That would mean some cabinets get deployed for as little as £1 subsidy - where they only just failed the viability test. And some cabinets will have a *huge* subsidy, where they weren't close to being viable.

My assumption is that in the sparse counties (such as North Yorkshire), there are very few of the £1 cabinets and many more of the expensive ones - so BT's investment looks proportionately small there. Meanwhile in the denser counties (such as Surrey or the Black Country), there are more of the £1 cabinets and fewer of the expensive ones - so BT's investment looks proportionately higher.

But these figures aren't reported consistently across the country, so can't be checked by the public. DCMS probably knows better than we ever will.

Maybe the existing phone cabinet is full? If so, then they would have to put another phone cabinet in plus the capacity for the FTTC cabinet. That, planning permission and the moving of the lines may have scuppered it.

In reply to a post by ian72:

Maybe the existing phone cabinet is full? If so, then they would have to put another phone cabinet in plus the capacity for the FTTC cabinet. That, planning permission and the moving of the lines may have scuppered it.

They never applied, I checked. Also cabinet cant be full before its placed, that would be compensated if using a larger cabinet.

I can understand the irritation then.

There has been mention of "copper re-arrangement" where the copper distribution gets changed to improve outcomes for subscribers. I'd assume that this allows for moving people into an already-upgraded cabinet that is nearer to their home than the one they are actually served by. Or moving remote EO lines onto a nearby cabinet.

The one project that has actively mentioned this principle is the Coventry, Solihull & Warwickshire project, but they haven't given a massive amount of detail.

In principle, this is an obvious solution for you.

However, you have to remember why those properties weren't wired that way in the first place. Presumably the cabinet was already full, or the lines into that cabinet were full; or the underground ducts just don't go in that direction. Rectifying either of these problems wouldn't be a cheap option.

Another problem springs to mind, given your description. Are the EO properties so intermingled with the cabinet-served properties that each postcode appears to already have NGA coverage? If so, the county might have declared your area "NGA grey" because it looked to be covered - which would preclude use of subsidies at all.

There was someone on here recently, fed by a cabinet that hadn't been upgraded. Every postcode on that cabinet was also served by another cabinet (and at least 50% served by that other cabinet), so the area looked, at first glance, to be ineligible.

To call Openreach engineers Internet engineers is a MASSIVE stretch of the imagination, then have no concept and no need to know how the Internet works, not even the complexities of how backhaul is handled from the cabinets.

They are trained on the topics they will encounter, but willing to bet not one Openreach engineer doing the normal day to day home visits knows what BGP, OSPF and other key things to running the Internet are about.

The 3 cabinets you say they installed would have been fibre twins to existing phone cabs. If those phone cabs were already full then it is these that they would have ended up having to change or add to - and it may be this that stopped it.

To get you on FTTC you need a phone cab and a fibre cab. If the phone cab is full then that could stop them moving your EO lines over regardless of how big the fibre twin is.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

Another problem springs to mind, given your description. Are the EO properties so intermingled with the cabinet-served properties that each postcode appears to already have NGA coverage? If so, the county might have declared your area "NGA grey" because it looked to be covered - which would preclude use of subsidies at all.

When I check on the openreach thing it gives a question mark. The properties are in no way intermingled. Its simply a chunk at the edge of town. We are bordered by the cabinets ironicly.

@MrSafron
It is openreach who used the term 'Internet Engineer'.

May I also add that Openreach have a nice habbit of closing cases regardless of the outcome so the fabled 28 days + 3 engineer visist = an escalation is the stuff of myth.

These 'Engineers' come out pick up the phone, hear a dial tone. Go sit in the van for 20 minutes. Tell you you should move house if you want faster internet. Go home.

However they use the terms 'Telephone' & 'Broadband/Internet' engineers. I have no doubt they have 'Fibre ' Engineers now.

and by the same token I have a yellow junmpsuit so I must be a Power Ranger!

So the chap who was quoted 30k for work done then why is that not being refugered using BDUK money ?

That's easy. There's no BDUK money available for London.