The trouble is, William, that although your thoughts are usually based on facts you have gleaned since coming to these forums, your conclusions are often hypothesis stated as fact.

These are difficult to refute because of that factual content when nobody knows the full facts as Openreach guard then very closely. However, your conclusions are often highly dubious and could well contribute to the plethora of internet myths, which are the bane of every one of us trying to help people who have found them on google and therefore believe them.

You can be wrong. You used to be so very frequently, but as your knowledge has increased the frequency has decreased. You are still not perfect, none of us are. You are about the only person claiming to be 100% correct.

You are yourself the cause of people disputing your conclusions, because those conclusions are rarely fully supported by what is known. They are often conjecture.

You frequently point out that debate is all you are engaging in when you make questionable statements, but as soon as anyone challenges such dubious statements you complain they are trying to stifle debate.

It is you that refuses to debate and get all uppity as now when people challenge your statements. You refuse to accept that you may be wrong even though it cannot be proved that you are.

All you really need to do is start introducing phrases like "I think ..." and "It's possible that ..." and "it looks as if ...", even "In my experience ..." into your discourse when you are extrapolating from partial knowledge.

There's no need for profanity either. It isn't the stuff of sensible discussion.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 09-Apr-17 12:03:01)

This forum has rules on the use of inappropriate language and the post that has been deleted broke those rules.

In reply to a post by WilliamGrimsley:

I understand how DSL works, thank you very much.

You do not! Even Openreach don't fully, because if they did they would fix its faults and roll it out in fully working order on all cabinets. But many here know a lot more about it than you seem to. I don't claim to "know" how it works. Nobody else here claims that either.

This "point scoring" is wrong. I come on here to offer my advice and help others, not to be taught constantly about where I've gone wrong.

You are now claiming that even when you are wrong in whatever way that nobody should correct you.

What?

It doesn't help others if what you state as fact is not necessary so. Bear in mind not just the people present today read your posts, thousands are likely to over the next year or so when they come up in search engine results. You should welcome correction, it's the only way any of us learn where we are going wrong.

It's also the way potential internet myths are avoided, as long as the people finding them go on to read the responses. Unfortunately they often just accept the statement and go away happy, but misled.

I'm not going to get drawn into a pointless ad hominem argument; that helps nobody. However, it is not your right to say "let's leave this here and move on" (as you did in the post that MrSaffron has deleted). A discussion conducted without a chair does not resolve based on the sole prerogative of a single participant. I am exasperated that the vast majority of my replies to you involve me pointing out your erroneous conclusions and/or responding to your firm statements of 'fact' which are either incorrect or where the evidence is incapable of supporting the firm conclusion(s) you have drawn. If you draw conclusions, you must be prepared to have your conclusions challenged with reasoned arguments to the contrary. If you are unsure, either do not reply or reply with some acknowledgement of the uncertainty in what you are saying.

True reputation on forums like this is established not by forum rank (which, with a few exceptions, is just a lookup based on number of posts - so people like yourself who make a lot of one sentence replies will soon get to the higher ranks). Rather, reputation is established based on track record. Please ask yourself what sort of reputation you are gaining.


If you knew me well, you would know that I am well acquainted with severe health problems; I have had a complex neuromuscular condition for over twenty years. When a duty exists under the Equality Act 2010 and related enactments to offer accommodation to disabled people, this duty is based on the concept of "reasonable adjustments". We all contribute here according to our personal whims and subject to the rules of the forum. Inasmuch as the forum operators are a service provider, they owe you some duties in respect of reasonable adjustments, which are largely understood to be an anticipatory duty to do with technical accessibility features of the forums such as compatibility with screen reader software.

These forums are essentially a social setting, albeit one based on interest in a particular area. Part of participating in any social setting is accepting the reasonable consequences of your own actions. Nothing in the 2010 Act constrains the actions of other forum users towards you - one would hope they display courtesy and consideration, as I am attempting to do, but you can expect nothing more. I do not wish to cause you distress, but you must accept that nothing in your health condition gives you the right to dictate how I or others behave towards you (as you sought to do in the post that has been deleted). Even when there is a right to reasonable adjustments under law, a disabled person does not have the right to insist on any particular adjustment.


If you require social support to participate in online discussion, I suggest that you attempt to seek that support. Unfortunately the criteria for Personal Independence Payment only considers the need for social support in face-to-face scenarios.

Edited by deleted (Sun 09-Apr-17 12:16:36)

Inappropriate language?!

Ok, thanks for the advice. I don't claim to be 100% correct, that would be wrong, because as you say, no one can be. I'll try and not come over like this again. Sorry.

Let's just leave it, David... But, anyway I am leaving for good. I have better things to do than being drawn in to this rubbish!

Edited by deleted (Sun 09-Apr-17 12:16:01)

Very informative post. Slight correction in that the trial is over now and not limited to the Devon & Cornwall area. It's been on a phased rollout since at least the 20th March. OpenReachs retransmission rollout was circa 45k lines per day, so I'd expect this to be right across the country by now.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Williams experience of how Broadcom VDSL2 chipsets handle the max attainable seems to have clouded every other fact. Every piece of info we've had suggests this is for Huawei cabinets only. I've seen nothing to suggest this has reached a single ECI cabinet. With the delay to ECI retransmission I would expect this to remain the case. Though as with most things OpenReach DLM related, this is best guess and by no means fact.

I used to get a full sync before the dreaded cross talk kicked in and took my connection down to 62/20 where it has stayed for 18 months.

3 weeks ago we had a power cut and my HG612 must have beaten the other routers and connected at full sync again. It stayed at full sync until yesterday when I had to turn the mains off, the HG612 was displaying a 0.1db sync in the evenings, noticed ping spikes etc at night.

According to BQM my line dropped this morning. I'm not on an ECI cab so will maybe they are dropping my target SNR down.

In reply to a post by fishpan:

I'm getting a similar sort of issue - DS Sync 72mbps, throughput 64mbps.

I'm on plusnet though and some plusnet users have seen a pattern emerge where *some* retransmission-enabled (G.inp) lines like mine have a distinct difference between sync and throughput. I think I made a querying post about it a while back to see if anyone else had the same issue on TBB.

I am assuming have you tried a PPP reset? (drop WAN connection, wait a min and re-enable) or if u have modem + separate router setup then just power off+on router.

To come back to you on this, re-establishing the session has resolved my issue - thankyou for suggesting that as i didnt imagine that this would make any difference. Simply resyncing the line instantly didnt do the trick, i had to leave the connection down for a period of time. (I actually left it down for 30mins).

Does anybody have a technical explanation of why this was the case? My throughput is now at 77mbit (against my new 3.4db SNR 79999 sync).

Thankyou again for the suggestion, that is a very nice little tweak from openreach there.

Edited by deleted (Mon 10-Apr-17 12:01:47)