FTTC problems - engineer chargeable?

I have been getting 3-6 VDSL or PPP drops and auto reboots during the day, although the line seems fine the rest of the time in terms of noise, SNR ES etc. The drops have triggered DLM and dropped the download rate to less than half the 55 meg attainable rate and pings are over 30ms. All the obvious things have been done, I am sure there are no internal wiring problems. iDNet say there are no obvious problems showing and that it is basically a gamble whether there would be a £200 engineer charges if the fault is not present when the Openreach engineer is there.
I have a week's worth of router DSL drop logs and screen shots at my end to confirm the problem.
Does anyone here have any idea if the logs are evidence that would prevent it being chargeable? Or is it a complete gamble? Seems like it could be cheaper to have a new line put in than have the engineer out for a problem...

Should really only be a charge raised if the fault is clearly found to be in your premises and down to wiring or hardware under your control.

Also not sure where a £200 charge comes from, usual threats are in the £130 to £150 region.

Thanks for that. I was really concerned with the fault being intermittent and so no problem appearing at the time of the engineer visit. If they accept my detailed log as evidence of the fault anyway, that would be OK - but there are no clear rules I can find. I am just told, "If no fault is found with the line the Openreach charge is
£165 +VAT"

It may not be a fault either. It could be high powered interference or noise from a source close to your line - but outside your propoerty. And who would you expect to cover Openreach's costs in that case? You? ISP? OR?

Do the issues happen at the same time of day? Are they confined to one particular period? Working times? Early evening? late evening? Monday to Friday only? or are they random ...

To be honest those logs aren't really actual evidence as such ....... They could be gleaned from anywhere.

As long as you have a simple set up, NTE only, and have tried a different router, then really I don't think OR are going to be raising charges, except maybe for 'right when tested'

How old is the router? Have you tried another?

Do you have wireless phones in the house?

Plusnet quote a £65 charge. I've yet to be charged in what, 5 visits by OR over the past 3 years. But by the time an engineer's visit is called for (always by Plusnet - but they do mention the possible charge), I've checked the internal side using my trusty standby modem and separate router. Once it hits the OR box everything from there going outside is down to OR. When they mention a charge, I say bring it on!

I'd assume IDNet are like Plusnet, do tests and more importantly give you the customer a complete print out of their tests.

As to being charged; if you're not happy with a charge, reclaim it and any refusal, fight it in the small claims courts. Sometimes, you'd think OR was God. They're just another company.

Edited by 69bertie (Mon 14-Aug-17 16:24:52)

Thanks for all the input. I like the optimistic ones that I won't be charged... if only I could be sure... And if I disputed the bill - who would I be fighting? Openreach presumably bill IDNet who bill me - I don't really want to fight IDNet over an Openreach bill...

To answer some points: I have had the problem with three routers. The official OpenReach modem+Openwrt router when I was still with Xilo, started having problems but could not easily access modem logs. Since joining iDnet a month ago I switched to a TP-Link TD W9970 which gave me easily accessible logs to see the problem. After contacting IDNet, they insisted I try another router and kindly sent me a loaner, the Billion 8800nl r2 that I am still using.

To tell you what I told IDNet: with that router

...after one week with high interleaving and stable profile, I'm still getting less than half the attainable line rate down and up: 24997/4293. Plus I am getting loss of service, automatic drops/reboots, or the occasional PPP drop four to six times per day, during daytime hours.

I have.. changed the microfilter twice and used the test socket of the Openreach installed line, with no other devices or phones on the line. There is no nearby interference at my end. Also the line noise test is clear.

Here is an example from yesterday and today (I have a week of them) of the logs I have kept - they do get wiped every auto reboot. The drops are regular but seem random, all days, all weather. I have also kept some router screenshots. (I should imagine there are logs of these disconnects somewhere in the BT cabinet?)

Aug 13 Down rate: 27,397 (Attainable: 55384) Up Rate: 5,000 (Attainable: 13580) Interleaving (16ms dn + 8ms up + 7ms)
(??overnight not monitored, logs cleared by reboot)
09:21 reboot
14:30 PPP Drop
Aug 13 14:30:02 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: SILI Start - UtopiaCfg - 10
Aug 13 14:30:02 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: XTM Link Information, port = 0, State = DOWN(2), Service Support = PTM(2)
Aug 13 14:30:02 kern warn kernel: HOST XTM tx ch 0 disabled.
Aug 13 14:30:02 kern warn kernel: W1B -603951531
Aug 13 14:30:02 kern warn kernel: W1E -603951530
Aug 13 14:30:02 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: Connection DOWN, LinkActiveStatus=0x0
Aug 13 14:30:02 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: ReconfigureSAR port 0 traffictype 0
Aug 13 14:30:02 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: Normal(XTM/PTM) Mode enabled
Aug 13 14:30:02 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: SILI End - UtopiaCfg - 0
Aug 13 14:30:02 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: DS xDSL G.inp Mode = DISABLED
Aug 13 14:30:02 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: xDSL G.Fast Mode = DISABLED
Aug 13 14:30:02 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: ATM Bonding configured in system. Fallback mode = Enabled
Aug 13 14:30:02 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: Bonding State is DATA_IDLE
Aug 13 14:30:02 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: SID MODE SET to 12 BIT MODE
Aug 13 14:30:02 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: ATM Bonding Mgmt Log Area = 8299cd18
Aug 13 14:30:02 kern warn kernel: Warning: SAR Channel 0 Rx Bogus Event
Aug 13 14:30:04 daemon notice syslog: pppd:Terminating on signal 20.
Aug 13 14:30:06 daemon crit syslog: Clear IP addresses. PPP connection DOWN.

15:01 reboot Down rate: 24997 (Attainable: 52783) Up Rate: 4293 (Attainable: 13435) Interleaving (16ms dn + 8ms up + 7ms) Depth: 1061/91
15:06 PPP disconnect
Aug 13 15:06:08 daemon crit syslog: Clear IP addresses. PPP connection DOWN.
Aug 13 15:06:08 daemon crit syslog: Clear IP addresses. Connection DOWN.
Aug 13 15:06:08 daemon notice syslog: pppd:Couldn't increase MTU to 1500.
Aug 13 15:06:08 daemon err syslog: pppd:Couldn't increase MRU to 1500
Aug 13 15:06:08 daemon notice syslog: pppd:Connection terminated.
Aug 13 15:06:08 daemon notice syslog: pppd:Connect time 4.5 minutes.
20:35 reboot

Aug 14 Down rate: 24997 (Attainable: 55692) Up Rate: 4293 (Attainable: 12957) Interleaving (16ms dn + 8ms up + 7ms) Depth: 1061/91

07:33 reboot
13:01 reboot
15:00 PPP Drop Down rate: 22399 (Attainable: 54929) Up Rate: 3696 (Attainable: 13319) Interleaving (16ms dn + 8ms up + 7ms) Depth: 951/79
Aug 14 15:00:23 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: SILI Start - UtopiaCfg - 10
Aug 14 15:00:23 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: XTM Link Information, port = 0, State = DOWN(2), Service Support = PTM(2)
Aug 14 15:00:23 kern warn kernel: HOST XTM tx ch 0 disabled.
Aug 14 15:00:23 kern warn kernel: W1B -515730620
Aug 14 15:00:23 kern warn kernel: W1E -515730618
Aug 14 15:00:23 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: Connection DOWN, LinkActiveStatus=0x0
Aug 14 15:00:23 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: ReconfigureSAR port 0 traffictype 0
Aug 14 15:00:23 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: Normal(XTM/PTM) Mode enabled
Aug 14 15:00:23 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: SILI End - UtopiaCfg - 0
Aug 14 15:00:23 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: DS xDSL G.inp Mode = DISABLED
Aug 14 15:00:23 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: xDSL G.Fast Mode = DISABLED
Aug 14 15:00:23 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: ATM Bonding configured in system. Fallback mode = Enabled
Aug 14 15:00:23 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: Bonding State is DATA_IDLE
Aug 14 15:00:23 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: SID MODE SET to 12 BIT MODE
Aug 14 15:00:23 kern warn kernel: bcmxtmcfg: ATM Bonding Mgmt Log Area = 8258b518
Aug 14 15:00:23 kern warn kernel: Warning: SAR Channel 0 Rx Bogus Event
Aug 14 15:00:25 daemon notice syslog: pppd:Terminating on signal 20.
Aug 14 15:00:27 daemon crit syslog: Clear IP addresses. PPP connection DOWN

Edited by deleted (Mon 14-Aug-17 16:53:31)