Ok ignore that FTTPoD then, I wont be getting that!

Yep I know all about pings, im a 20 year FPS gamer, thats why I also want good routing. I am well aware what ping times to expect to various places around the world and what effect good and bad routing has on it. What I dont want is to go back to worse latency than I had 15 years ago on an ISDN line, particularly coming from a VM connection where I get 7ms pings to the various speedtest servers at ookla.

I play fps games where a 25ms increase in ping feels huge to me after playing for so many years, I also trade which requires a low ping. Anything around 10ms would be fine, 25+ I would not be happy with (although It seems I will have no choice in the matter anyway).

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

You appear to be making business grade requests of a consumer grade product.

If you absolutely have to have a guarantee of the lowest of pings and the highest of speeds, then you should expect to pay handsomely for it.

The OP should consider a leased line service, ie a dedicated full fibre line with zero contention and line speeds guaranteed 24/7 with low latency. Of course such a service won�t come cheap but if the OP wants the very best....
www.linebroker.co.uk

Nope, I expect to get what is fair and reasonable in 2018, not something worse for latency than I used 15 years ago. I am less bothered about the speed as long as its above say 40mb, but the speed and latency on FTTC seem to go hand in hand.

I know FTTC with BT CAN provide pings of 5ms, a friend has it a few miles away. What I take great exception to is having to enter into a long term contract without knowing what I am going to get in advance. There is a world of difference between getting 30mb and a 35ms ping, and getting 55-60mb and a <10ms ping.

For a start I am paying for the "up to" 76mb package, if the speeds I get end up below 52mb then I should be able to take the 52mb package instead, which will be cheaper and provide the exact same speeds. The fact that I seem to be getting stuck in a 76mb contract without knowing what speeds I *WILL* get is completely baffling to me. Hell what if I had an "impacted" line and got 35mb speeds? Then I could get the 38mb package at a fraction of the cost and again get the same speed, except 35mb is still within the minimum speed, so I get stuck paying for a 76mb package that runs at less than half that.

Effectively they are expecting people to sign long contracts with only a vague idea of what they will get as far as I can see. UNLESS you can cancel the contract after having it installed so you get a chance to test it (and of course it takes ~10 days to settle down before you really know what you will end up with).

In reply to a post by Ewok:

There is a world of difference between getting 30mb and a 35ms ping, and getting 55-60mb and a <10ms ping.

I am a gamer and my ping as shown in my earlier post is 15 ms do you honestly believe you would notice the differentiate between 10ms and 35ms in an online game?

Edited by deleted (Mon 19-Feb-18 19:10:15)

In reply to a post by Ewok:

There is no other option as it stands, unless I get 4g.

What i find staggering is that I apparently have to get tied into a 12 or 18 month contract for a service before I know what service I am going to get! I might get 60mb, I might get 30mb, I might have a 5ms ping, or I might have a 30ms ping. How the hell can I get tied into a long contract without know this stuff beforehand!?!? Its beyond ridiculous.

It is besides the point anyway, no ISP can guarantee you fast path, it is not how FTTC works. All FTTC ISPs use BT Openreach DLM, as such, you will find the line management basically the same across ISPs with some minor differences due to limited choice ISPs have.

Changing ISP will not fix your issue, Openreach DLM will kick in again on the new ISP in the same manner. DLM is not done by the ISP manually on FTTC, it is the way the technology works, something every ISP signs up to.

So yes, pings might not be as you desire due to your line condition, but changing ISP does not change your line - so short of the new ISP re-digging your whole line and giving you something substantially better, there is no point in thinking a switch of provider will gain a whole lot.

To confirm, you cannot forcibly request Fast Path, if your line can handle it DLM will apply it, on any ISP.

ISPs do not have management of your sync speed, noise margin etc.
Dynamic Line Management (DLM) is part of the technology developed. AAISP cannot simply disable it, nor can BT, to give a comparison. AAISP cannot force Fast Path, neither can BT.

Similarly, virginmedia do not guarantee pings of sub 10ms, they offer a gaming profile, however, I have yet to see any evidence what-so-ever that this does anything to improve pings. It seems a marketing gimmick with fast speeds rather than a huge technology adjustment.

As others have mentioned, where you require pings at this level, do what trading companies do and invest in a leased line with a defined service level agreement, this is a home service where you get mass market at a low price. On the whole, pings are generally good and acceptable.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Mon 19-Feb-18 19:12:54)

I know FTTC with BT CAN provide pings of 5ms, a friend has it a few miles away. What I take great exception to is having to enter into a long term contract without knowing what I am going to get in advance. There is a world of difference between getting 30mb and a 35ms ping, and getting 55-60mb and a <10ms ping.

The user has a line which can handle it, therefore they get the speed. It is the way the techology works.

For a start I am paying for the "up to" 76mb package, if the speeds I get end up below 52mb then I should be able to take the 52mb package instead, which will be cheaper and provide the exact same speeds. The fact that I seem to be getting stuck in a 76mb contract without knowing what speeds I *WILL* get is completely baffling to me. Hell what if I had an "impacted" line and got 35mb speeds? Then I could get the 38mb package at a fraction of the cost and again get the same speed, except 35mb is still within the minimum speed, so I get stuck paying for a 76mb package that runs at less than half that.

Worth raising with the provider, to see if they will agree for you to adjust the package if the speeds are not as promised. However, it is possible for uptake in your area to adjust, and crosstalk to rise 1 year down the line, which would lower your speeds - so the ISP has to draw a line.

Effectively they are expecting people to sign long contracts with only a vague idea of what they will get as far as I can see. UNLESS you can cancel the contract after having it installed so you get a chance to test it (and of course it takes ~10 days to settle down before you really know what you will end up with).

Given your estimates, indeed it is worth considering the 55Mbps package with the caveat the upload is 10Mbps, not 20Mbps. There is no 10 day settling period, DLM runs always 24/7 from day one until the day you close the service. It can make adjustments at any point in time, it does not "settle" down after 10 days. Generally, users notice no real changes beyond the first day or two, but there is no defined period as there was back in the ADSL days where providers all had their own DLM, this is now constant. My line has been full sync ever since day 1 with no drops etc noticeable, I have the 40Mbps package, as my line would only get around 55 to 60 anyway, and I have a big cost saving on this package.

Yep, I know for a fact I would, I've detected smaller differences than that, I can just feel it. I could live with 15ms if I had to.

Yep.

urgh the whole thing is just poorly done. I am expected to sign up to a 12+ month contract for a service that could be 30mb and 35ms ping, or 60mb and 5ms ping, but I have to be tied in to it before I find out, its like some sort of scam. Yes you may have a point that any FTTC service will end up with the same issue if the line is bad.....but that ignores the possibility that if the line is bad, a different type of connection might be better (such as 4g or VM or some other provider) and you have no option to go for that instead until its too late.

If the 60mb max is accurate then I may as well look at 52mb packages. Which rules out AA completely because I can't see anything other than the full 76mb package on their site.

I am having a very serious look at IDNET now because of the 1 month contract and their good reputation. It also means I can go for the 76mb package, see what speed I get, and then drop it down to the 55mb one if the speed arent worth it. Seems IDNET are in pole position now!

Edited by Ewok (Mon 19-Feb-18 21:07:03)

In reply to a post by Ewok:

If the 60mb max is accurate then I may as well look at 52mb packages. Which rules out AA completely because I can't see anything other than the full 76mb package on their site.

AAISP only offer the 76/20 because a year-ish ago they scrapped their 40/10 offering and lowered the price of 76/20 to the price they were selling 40/10 at.

IDNet don't offer 55/10. Only 76/20 and 40/10.

I think your safest bet for latency could be BT. AAISP has the benefit of consistency, but maybe worse routing, though that will depend where you are.

I have had FTTC from IDNet, Plusnet and now AAISP. The first two were typically around the 14ms mark, including interleaving which at its initial (normal) level adds 8ms.

Now on AAISP with no interleaving delay, (because G.INP is active on my line), it is around 18ms. I put that down to a more direct routing from my exchange to the first three than now to AA.

Although others have said that all ISPs (barring VM) are subject to the Openreach DLM on FTTC, latency is still greatly influenced by each ISP's backhaul at and from the exchange to their core routers. AUIU BT Retail and Plusnet both now go straight out to peering from the BT Wholesale network, though I could be completely mistaken!

I say "at" the exchange because each of BT Wholesale, Sky, TalkTalk, Vodafone have to have links from the Openreach termination equipment to their backhaul out of the exchange. (GEA cable links). The capacity they have at each FTTC headend exchange will vary.

Similarly at the point where BT Wholesale hand your data over to your ISP the ISP rents a given throughput capacity. If they save money there then throughput and latency can both suffer.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 20-Feb-18 00:04:20)