In reply to a post by jamescompton:

I'm just wondering what BT/Openreach don't know about there own infrastructure that would lead to such an answer.

Because they haven't updated their infrastructure mapping to your property, because it hasn't yet been necessary. They possibly haven't had the need to do it because no significant fault has been reported, i.e. no re-routing and so no re-mapping recorded, for your PSTN line(s).

I've posted here before about having a family member who then worked for what was then "BT Openreach" in 2012 look up BTOR's mapping of my line (not any data about broadband speeds, or a live line test - these were literally scans of paper routes, wth PCPs, DPs, etc. marked); and it hadn't got any of this entire estate mapped, it lust showed one line (possibly two) to a mill which was demolished in the late 80s. This estate was build during 1998 and 1999.

I'm not saying that I know this is the case for you, of course, it's just an example of how someone could have "taken a quick look" at some stupidly outdated scanned papers. No new PCP was required for the 3 roads which make up what I'm calling "my estate" - it simply came off an older one, and when FTTC came along in 2012 (so the same year the BTOR engineer looked at the mapping for my line) no updated mapping was there, even when some of my neighbours actually had FTTC.

I assume that since 2012, they've probably had to update their records, and I'm not accusing OR of anything that they're not responsible for. I'm also not saying that that my family member wasn't able to dig deeper, we were essentially just laughing at how their most recent mapping (again, NOT line tests, etc.) for where I lived must have been from the very early 1980s at best.

My point after all this rambling, I suppose, is that mapping for theoretical builds does not exist, and even mapping for recent-ish builds might not exist either. The ability to test lines in real-world time and assist with either voice or data problems which have been raised by ISPs potentially has nothing to do with any mapping. That's why they physically write in yellow marker on recently installed fibre splitter/AG nodes, and mark problems or incomplete/planned routing with those yellow tags and Axxxx codes indicating what sort of issue it is.

So the FTTPoD provider's Email reply of

This essentially means that their records are not good enough to be able to determine any costs using a desktop survey

Is the short and extremely accurate answer, I think.

Edited by deleted (Sat 21-Jul-18 02:30:37)

Has anyone from the £39k team gone for a full quote and got there price back?

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

I don't think build costs are transferable between CPs for obvious reasons. However I don't see why you can't have multiple quotes. Probably worth giving FluidOne a call and if they can confirm 100% they don't have a surcharge for your exchange area then you could potentially save > £800 pa even if you were to lose the £250 survey fee by cancelling your Cerberus order. I think Fluidone's monthly service charges are ~ £100 but you would need to check with them.

Called them, but as we are considered "Off Net" in FluidOne speak, the monthly FTTPoD service charges are way more than Cerberus, even taking into account the Market A surcharge that Cerberus are proposing (at this point in time).

Just checked and my exchange is now definitely in the list for Market B in the draft WBA Statement, which according to Ofcom should be published as final this month.

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018...

Therefore once this document is published in finality I cannot see how Cerberus can levy the Market A Surcharge. But I'll keep my gob shut until I get the final build cost back.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Therefore once this document is published in finality I cannot see how Cerberus can levy the Market A Surcharge. But I'll keep my gob shut until I get the final build cost back.

I would have thought the monthly price shown in the Cerberus agreement/contract you signed is the price you pay even if your exchange classification changes later on. You should get clarification from Cerberus.

Edited by deleted (Mon 23-Jul-18 19:59:38)

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Therefore once this document is published in finality I cannot see how Cerberus can levy the Market A Surcharge. But I'll keep my gob shut until I get the final build cost back.

I would have thought the monthly price shown in the Cerberus agreement/contract you signed is the price you pay even if your exchange classification changes later on. You should get clarification from Cerberus.

Just checked the T&Cs. I need to give them notice of the change in Market classification of the exchange and they need to corroborate, as per 9.8.3.

9.8. Cerberus may levy a surcharge on the service rental for orders in Market A areas. Such surcharges shall be stated at the point of order and will apply from the activation date of the Service until it ceases subject to 9.8.3, or is replaced by a new service, at which point, Cerberus may vary the surcharge.
9.8.1 Market A surcharges may be levied on new orders, migrations, regrades and upgrade orders.
9.8.2 Cerberus shall not levy Market A surcharges on the any pre-existing Services where the surcharge was not stated at the time of the Order.
9.8.3 If, after activation, the Customer reports to Cerberus that the Ofcom definition of the location has changed from Market A to Market B, and this is corroborated by Cerberus, then any surcharge as set out in 9.8 shall no longer be payable, and any invoicing in advance for the surcharge beyond the date that the Customer reports the change of Market shall be credited by Cerberus to the Customer.

Fair do's, seems clear enough

It's interesting wondering what kind of data they hold in their infrastructure DB. I actually had a new line run from a different pole at the start of 2017 due to a fault with the original line (which dates way back, when I moved in I still had boxes on the wall to do with line sharing etc.) so thought maybe they kept better track of such things. The area I'm in was down for FTTP for 2+ years on the various checkers and emails with Openreach up until June/July 2017 when it changed to just being In-Scope and finally just having an FTTC cabinet installed with little warning in December. I actually get 40+ down and 9+ up which is a great improvement over the 3 down, less than 1 up I did have but would happily pay more for a greater speed...though possibly not 10k+!! I'm wondering if they've installed most of the FTTP infrastructure, switched to FTTC in order to help meet targets and are just waiting to see if the Welsh government are willing to throw more money at them in the successor to the Superfast Cymru programme to provide FTTP when they've already done most of the work? Perhaps I'm too cynical

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Therefore once this document is published in finality I cannot see how Cerberus can levy the Market A Surcharge. But I'll keep my gob shut until I get the final build cost back.

I would have thought the monthly price shown in the Cerberus agreement/contract you signed is the price you pay even if your exchange classification changes later on. You should get clarification from Cerberus.

Just checked the T&Cs. I need to give them notice of the change in Market classification of the exchange and they need to corroborate, as per 9.8.3.

9.8. Cerberus may levy a surcharge on the service rental for orders in Market A areas. Such surcharges shall be stated at the point of order and will apply from the activation date of the Service until it ceases subject to 9.8.3, or is replaced by a new service, at which point, Cerberus may vary the surcharge.
9.8.1 Market A surcharges may be levied on new orders, migrations, regrades and upgrade orders.
9.8.2 Cerberus shall not levy Market A surcharges on the any pre-existing Services where the surcharge was not stated at the time of the Order.
9.8.3 If, after activation, the Customer reports to Cerberus that the Ofcom definition of the location has changed from Market A to Market B, and this is corroborated by Cerberus, then any surcharge as set out in 9.8 shall no longer be payable, and any invoicing in advance for the surcharge beyond the date that the Customer reports the change of Market shall be credited by Cerberus to the Customer.

I am in a similar position, except that my exchange, WNCER, seems to be remaining in Market A according to the draft Ofcom document. Parenthetically, Cerberus sales have talked of Ofcom planning to reduce Market A to only 0.7% of exchanges, which certainly is not what the draft document appears to do. More like 15%. I am all for Cerberus making a profit, as they are performing a valuable service and I hope to use them long term, though hopefully not at £195 a month, but where does the Market A surcharge come from? It doesn't appear in the Openreach price list AFAICS. I have just received my survey report and quote, and it will be hard to negotiate with the four neighbours involved if I can't tell them whether they are paying about £2800 or about £1440 rental in the first year (VAT inclusive figures).


My results, where the nearest aggregation node (unless they have battery powered ones up poles) is likely more than 3km away are quite pleasing otherwise:

Desktop survey £27,700.

Survey Quote (less £700) £12,500

I suspect they may have quoted lower as they will be needing to do some major copper cable repairs along the same route pretty soon. (Temporary joints in poly bags for the last year!)

I am in a similar position, except that my exchange, WNCER, seems to be remaining in Market A according to the draft Ofcom document. Parenthetically, Cerberus sales have talked of Ofcom planning to reduce Market A to only 0.7% of exchanges, which certainly is not what the draft document appears to do. More like 15%.

The remedies are applied to BT Wholesale, not Openreach.
The costs involved (particularly bandwidth) are much, much greater in market A.

it will be falling to 0.9% of premises (not exchanges), but the important distinction is that GEA services (FTTC, FTTP) will have their market determined based on your handover exchange, not the local exchange. Copper (ADSL) will still be subject to the serving exchange.

WNCER is staying in Market A, but it's handover node is WNMAC which will be entering Market B, and hence you would not be subject to Market A remedies for your FTTP connection.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

9.8.3 If, after activation, the Customer reports to Cerberus that the Ofcom definition of the location has changed from Market A to Market B, and this is corroborated by Cerberus, then any surcharge as set out in 9.8 shall no longer be payable, and any invoicing in advance for the surcharge beyond the date that the Customer reports the change of Market shall be credited by Cerberus to the Customer.

Surprised and disappointed that Cerberus are relying on a customer to tell them that the Ofcom classification has changed - wouldn't have though that would be a fair/legal T&C if a residential contract.