In reply to a post by j0hn83:

By your logic Talktalk will roll out their own FTTP network and sell that to end users.
They will sell OpenReach G.Fast to customers, but not FTTP.
That's some bizarre business strategy.

Why is that bizarre? Why would TT sell Openreach based 1 Gig for £100s per month (with an upload of only 220 Mbps) when they can & are selling their own symmetrical 1 Gig FTTP for around £30/m, as is the case in York? TT are a bargain basement ISP, no way on earth are they going to start selling 2 tiers of FTTP - a considerably pricier & technically inferior (wrt upload speeds) FTTP based Openreach service versus their own symmetric FTTP service costing a small fraction. When TT decided to sell g.fast a few years ago, their Fibre Nation plan was not announced, ie they had no idea if they were to going to build on the York FTTP pilot.

Btw TT do not actively promote/advertise g.fast services on their website, you have to Google 'TalkTalk g.fast' in order to get the URL to order such a service - its not cheap (by TT standards) either, around £50/m for the 300 Mbps tier.

Likewise, Vodafone have decided not to sell Openreach based FTTP (despite continuing to sell other Openreach based products such as FTTC lines) and instead sell CityFibre FTTP services at a fraction of what Openreach charge.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

The Talktalk Fibre Nation plan is simply an ambition to build an FTTP network with someone else's money.

No way will any company build a FTTP for free and not expect anything in return. If - and its the mother of all "if's" - TT do find an investor for their plans then it will be a similar arrangement like the CityFibre/Vodafone FTTP partnership. CityFibre are laying 100% of the fibre - from the PoPs to user premises - but Vodafone will have paid them a substantial amount for this and in return get exclusive access to sell residential/consumer FTTP services for a limited time. Vodafone also have to ensure they have the necessary backhaul links in place to carry the high speeds, which can cost quite a lot depending on the traffic they're seeing.

In reply to a post by Alucidnation:

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

TalkTalk, unlike Sky, are planning to roll out their own FTTP network nationwide so they may never sell full fibre on the Openreach platform. Sky will be offering Openreach based FTTP & gfast by the end of 2019, offering speeds of up to 1 Gig.

I'll eat Paddy's hat if Talktalk aren't selling OpenReach FTTP in the next 12 months.

An FTTP network in York isn't nationwide.

TTB use OR for their FTTP business lines

TalkTalk/TalkTalk Business do not sell Openreach based FTTP services at present. I supect you might be referring to business leased lines which Openreach do sell to TTB. However leased lines are a different kettle of fish. From my own experience, TTB sales staff will sometimes refer to ''leased lines' as 'FTTP lines'.

Edited by deleted (Mon 29-Jul-19 20:24:05)

Your whole reasoning there is bizarre.

They won't sell OpenReach FTTP because it's more expensive and slower than their own tiny York FTTP network.

Yet they are absolutely fine selling OpenReach G.Fast which is more expensive and slower than their own FTTP.

Where's the logic?

You seem fixated on higher OpenReach FTTP tiers that aren't widely available and the relevant residential offerings cost a fortune.

The customer tends not to be aware of the underlying technology, be it FTTC, G.Fast or FTTP.
It's simply advertised as fibre, or SuperFast Fibre, or Ultrafast fibre, or similar generic terms.

Why would Talktalk not sell the same 2 OpenReach FTTP speed tiers that are available on G.Fast at a similar price?
They could be advertised the same to customers, yet 1 would be considerable more reliable and customers would get the full rate regardless of cabinet distance.

They could choose to keep 1Gb offerings for their own network.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Your whole reasoning there is bizarre.

They won't sell OpenReach FTTP because it's more expensive and slower than their own tiny York FTTP network.

Yet they are absolutely fine selling OpenReach G.Fast which is more expensive and slower than their own FTTP.

Where's the logic?

Then perhaps you'd like to explain why Vodafone have shunned Openreach FTTP services in favour of Cityfibre based FTTP? There's nothing stopping Vodafone from selling both Openreach and Cityfibre based FTTP services. After all, Openreach's FTTP footprint is far greater than Cityfibre's at present. So why can't TalkTalk operate in the same way, assuming their Fibre Nation plan comes to fruition? As for g.fast on TalkTalk, based on the very little sales exposure it gets on their website, it may be that they plan on retiring this sometime in the future. Otherwise i don't see the point of selling g.fast but making it almost impossible to find on their website.

Having said all this, if TalkTalk were to start selling Openreach based FTTP in the next year or two then I will happily eat humble pie. I may even join them if they were to sell half a gig or 1 Gig FTTP services at a reasonable price

Edited by deleted (Mon 29-Jul-19 22:31:03)

Perhaps same reason most big ISP's have chosen not to sell it?

OpenReach FTTP has always had a very small footprint.
It needs to be worth it to train staff, create the ordering system, have new CPE made.

What's the difference between OpenReach FTTP 80/20 and OpenReach FTTC 80/20 that means ISP's with their own FTTP network will sell 1 and not the other?

It's not price, they cost the same.
It's not reliability, FTTP is better.
It's not speed, everyone gets the full rate.

I would suggest it's because FTTC reaches over 24 million homes, and FTTP only reaches about 1.5 million homes.
It was under 500,000 homes last year.

I don't believe for a second that the big players aren't selling OpenReach FTTP for some vanity reason because they have their own FTTP network, which is what you seem to be implying.
It's more likely because it has never been worth selling with such a limited footprint.

Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 29-Jul-19 23:31:23)

In reply to a post by burble:

My point was that Vonage and such like are charging considerably more to add a comprehensive phone package to FTTP than TalkTalk charge to add a similar package to FTTC or ADSL. There was once a time when VOIP was the cheap option, at least when phoning overseas, not sure this is still the case.

I would say that Vonage are more in the hand holding market for which they then charge more that the likes of Sipgate (retail) which are more DIY. Vonage have a marketing agreement with Gigaclear.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

I don't believe for a second that the big players aren't selling OpenReach FTTP for some vanity reason because they have their own FTTP network, which is what you seem to be implying.
It's more likely because it has never been worth selling with such a limited footprint.

So I'll ask again, why have Vodafone chosen to use Cityfibre's FTTP network rather than Openreach for their FTTP services? Unless you're suggesting Cityfibre now have a bigger FTTP footprint than Openreach? As I said earlier, there's nothing stopping Vodafone offering both Openreach and Cityfibre FTTP based services - yet they've chosen to go with an operator with a smaller FTTP footprint of the two.

Edited by deleted (Tue 30-Jul-19 10:25:42)

Vodafone - smaller fixed line presence currently....so equations very different to TalkTalk.

CityFibre - cheaper to buy and first mover in terms of Gigabit marketing in various areas. Exclusivity deal for a number of years. Sales people being able to say nothing to do with BT might be a sales pitch too. Also there may be deals for dark fibre for Vodafone 4G/5G backhaul involved.

CityFibre is winning lots of anchor tenant contracts, taking them away from traditional BT and also looks to be favoured choice for possible further public investment too, i.e. more money for anchor tenant with fingers crossed subsequent FTTP roll-out.

Also TalkTalk have stated they intend to provide FTTP with others companies as well as OR, I take this to mean whoever they can get the best deal from.

e.g. OFNL