In reply to a post by candlerb:

Indeed - and this is exactly what WBC FTTP is. It may not be perfect, but it's a pretty decent option.

The upset is caused by altnets bypassing this network in cheap-to-build areas. But to be fair, without the altnets, Openreach would never have started building in the first place.

Are you saying you would prefer that the entire market offer whatever BT Wholesale/Openreach deign to give them?

The infrastructure competition we have is clearly delivering better products and more choice to the consumer. If Openreach either offered point to point fibre that could be unbundled or were pushing the envelope I'd agree - they aren't even close. They're outdone by KCom.

Only Openreach are forced to offer PIA , at peppercorn rent, it’s up to other network operators , if they want to use it or install their own physical infrastructure…those that do install their own infrastructure may offer others access , but they are not compelled to do so, and certainly don’t have the regulator dictating the prices that can be charged for allowing others access, OR don’t use other network providers infrastructure, BT only use OR.
Obviously if an alternative network gets it infrastructure in first , it would be a regulator sanctioned monopoly if they disallowed others from installing infrastructure just because it could cause some disruption during the install.
FWIW, the chances are that at least some Openreach duct /jointboxes etc will exist in areas that are not fully ducted , so OR build is likely to be less disruptive that a network that is built from scratch

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

Only Openreach are forced to offer PIA , at peppercorn rent

Wouldn't call it peppercorn rent. Comparable to the passive products other telcos offer.

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

The infrastructure competition we have is clearly delivering better products and more choice to the consumer.

Macro or micro level?

At the macro level you are opening the market so that consumers can use different providers. However the current market and economic forces mean that a lot of consumers will not have a range of choice at micro level. At the micro level you are forcing consumers to use whichever ISPs have taken up the option to buy capacity from the particular macro-level network provider. So at the micro level you are confining the choice for the consumer to what is potentially a far more restrictive range of market options than they currently have under ADSL/VDSL.

You wouldn’t call it peppercorn rent , I would , you say comparable to other Telcos that offer PIA , without an example of a Telco that offers PIA ( either voluntary or enforced) or evidence of an equivalent price list to OR ( a price list effectively set by the regulator) …the fact remains only OR are forced to do this , if it were not forced it wouldn’t be available and it’s wholly in the interest of OR competitors, many of which are backed by much wealthier organisations.
Consider the frankly ludicrous situation where an alt net installs a cable in a duct , or places a wire on a pole , or puts a CBT in a box that belongs to Openreach and by doing so exhausts the capacity of that asset ( no more space on the pole , anything extra would be an infringement of safety rules , or no more space in the duct for another cable or the joint box now has no more space ) and OR , have a need to use that asset themselves, they are required to build new infrastructure, seems somewhat unfair to me

Edited by Iniltous (Sat 14-May-22 09:27:52)

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

You wouldn’t call it peppercorn rent , I would , you say comparable to other Telcos that offer PIA , without any example of any Telco that offers PIA ( either voluntary or enforced) or evidence of an equivalent price list to OR …the fact remains only OR are forced to do this , if it were not forced it wouldn’t be available and it’s wholly in the interest of OR competitors, many of which are backed by much wealthier organisations,

France Telecom / Orange, Telefonica's fixed assets in Spain, Altice Portugal, Swisscom come to mind immediately as telcos offering similar.

I'm talking about their peer incumbents, not alternative networks. If Openreach want to pursue mutual duct unbundling they know where Ofcom are to make their case.

When you mentioned who PIA is in the interest of you forgot end users. Those enjoying faster, cheaper services as a result of it would probably be pretty happy about it if they were aware.

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

Consider the frankly ludicrous situation where an alt net installs a cable in a duct , or places a wire on a pole , or puts a CBT in a box that belongs to Openreach and by doing so exhausts the capacity of that asset ( no more space on the pole , anything extra would be an infringement of safety rules , or no more space in the duct for another cable or the joint box now has no more space ) and OR , have a need to use that asset themselves, they are required to build new infrastructure, seems somewhat unfair to me

A flipside is of course altnets unblocking ducts that Openreach can then use themselves for full fibre. £400-ish saved per blockage? Doesn't take many of those to cover standing a new pole, 2, or a few meters of 1-way.

Fairness isn't a big consideration in these builds. If fairness were considered a thing Openreach wouldn't be playing 'chase the altnet' prioritising overbuilding or preemptively building as soon as they see PIA action and streetworks permit requests to try and prevent them gaining market share.

Edited by XGS_Is_On (Sat 14-May-22 09:51:58)

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

The infrastructure competition we have is clearly delivering better products and more choice to the consumer.

Macro or micro level?

At the macro level you are opening the market so that consumers can use different providers. However the current market and economic forces mean that a lot of consumers will not have a range of choice at micro level. At the micro level you are forcing consumers to use whichever ISPs have taken up the option to buy capacity from the particular macro-level network provider. So at the micro level you are confining the choice for the consumer to what is potentially a far more restrictive range of market options than they currently have under ADSL/VDSL.

How many premises do you think Openreach will be deterred from a build by PIA from?

The opposite happens. As soon as a competitor turns up Openreach start building themselves much of the time.

Why? When you have 60-100% of the fixed line business in an area, steadily, there's minimal business case to invest in FTTP for the sake of a few pounds a month per premises extra revenue. When a new company appears that'll take all the revenue from you on 10% initially then more of that area you have a much bigger incentive to build.

In reply to a post by XGS_Is_On:

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

You wouldn’t call it peppercorn rent , I would , you say comparable to other Telcos that offer PIA , without any example of any Telco that offers PIA ( either voluntary or enforced) or evidence of an equivalent price list to OR …the fact remains only OR are forced to do this , if it were not forced it wouldn’t be available and it’s wholly in the interest of OR competitors, many of which are backed by much wealthier organisations,

France Telecom / Orange, Telefonica's fixed assets in Spain, Altice Portugal, Swisscom come to mind immediately as telcos offering similar.

I'm talking about their peer incumbents, not alternative networks. If Openreach want to pursue mutual duct unbundling they know where Ofcom are to make their case.

When you mentioned who PIA is in the interest of you forgot end users. Those enjoying faster, cheaper services as a result of it would probably be pretty happy about it if they were aware.

In reply to a post by Iniltous:

Consider the frankly ludicrous situation where an alt net installs a cable in a duct , or places a wire on a pole , or puts a CBT in a box that belongs to Openreach and by doing so exhausts the capacity of that asset ( no more space on the pole , anything extra would be an infringement of safety rules , or no more space in the duct for another cable or the joint box now has no more space ) and OR , have a need to use that asset themselves, they are required to build new infrastructure, seems somewhat unfair to me

A flipside is of course altnets unblocking ducts that Openreach can then use themselves for full fibre. £400-ish saved per blockage? Doesn't take many of those to cover standing a new pole, 2, or a few meters of 1-way.

Fairness isn't a big consideration in these builds. If fairness were considered a thing Openreach wouldn't be playing 'chase the altnet' prioritising overbuilding or preemptively building as soon as they see PIA action and streetworks permit requests to try and prevent them gaining market share.

Openreach are a commercial company , is there something wrong in a private company attempting to hang onto customers , why should they simply say ‘ after you ‘ ?,
I find it interesting that you have to use an international comparison with national incumbents because there are no domestic comparisons .
Your other evidence free assertion that OR prioritise an area as soon as they see competitors, even if it were true ,( it isn’t ) how is it unfair ? , how is it anti competitive ? the consumer would have a much wider range of ISP to chose than if the choice for FTTP were simply from the Alt Net , or are you happy with FTTP monopoly's as long as it isn’t OR ?
If Openreach puts their own FTTP kit in their own infrastructure at their own expense how can you possibly object to that.
Cheaper and faster ?, given the massive advantage these Alt Nets are given ( especially with PIA ) not too difficult to be cheaper , plus how else are you going to gain customers initially, and ‘faster’ , the majority of customers who take FTTP don’t take the fastest packages , because most people don’t need multi gigabit speeds , and the network architecture OR use is pretty standard and upgradable should those speeds ever be required, you don’t build a 6 lane highway if the traffic now and in the foreseeable future doesn’t require it

Edited by Iniltous (Sat 14-May-22 12:38:18)

The opposite happens. As soon as a competitor turns up Openreach start building themselves much of the time.

In the town where I’m sat right now, there are two Altnets (one PIA, one not) happily tearing up these mean streets to provide service, and already providing service in some places. The only place which has Openreach provided FTTP is a block of flats.
Your statement is not correct.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The opposite happens. As soon as a competitor turns up Openreach start building themselves much of the time.

In the town where I’m sat right now, there are two Altnets (one PIA, one not) happily tearing up these mean streets to provide service, and already providing service in some places. The only place which has Openreach provided FTTP is a block of flats.
Your statement is not correct.

I said 'much of the time' not 'all of the time'.