My brain hurts...

...after a discussion tonight in Richer Sounds.

I went in to order a 1080p Samsung LED TV, on special for £379 with a free 5 year warranty. The manager told me it was only "entry level" quality. I told the guy that I wasn't fussed about post processing engines etc, as I only wanted it for gaming purposes. He told me that buying a 1080p LED screen running at 50Hz was a mistake for gaming and that most xbox and playstation gamers are after 600Hz units.

I told him that most Samsungs have a "game mode" that turns all the processing off and reverts the set back to 50Hz, so as to prevent input lag. He looked at me blankly and said he doesn't think that's what it was for. So I told him there must be a clue in the title and he lost interest rapido styley.

Does anybody understand the relationship between picture frequency and frames per second? I don't see any reason to go above 60Hz for gaming.

Most modern televisions have a refresh rate of at least 200hz and some even much higher than that,but matey I'm no television buff event though i buy the latest Samsung Televisions and all the rest of the gadgets.

Edited by time2die (Sun 10-Nov-13 00:58:04)

In reply to a post by mrnelster:

Does anybody understand the relationship between picture frequency and frames per second? I don't see any reason to go above 60Hz for gaming.

Not really mate! If you wanted a definitive answer you could always visit the AVForums(.org)?

I think it comes down to two or three factors:

Input Lag - all LCD/Plasma screens lag behind CRT screens when showing the image (regardless of motion processing)

Post Processing (as you say) - you have processing for colour fidelity, dynamic range, and motion artifacts of course which will impede the screen response times I think. My own LCD screen for my PC is a pretty old SPVA or something so hardly ideal for gaming.

Response times - measured in milliseconds, grey to grey typically (harder and slower for colour to change black to white)

This is a list of the types of tech used in LCD displays:

TN Film
IPS
PVA or MVA
PLS

If you really wanna do some reading you can try TFT Central

I was definitely reading about monitor refresh rates just recently and I remember now, it was to do with nVidia and them coming out with some new synchronising tech that could be used in monitors so frame rates could be rendered smoothly in time with less hold up dropped or unnecessarily rendered frames...

Had a google... It's nVidia G-Sync...

Yeah, broadly speaking i think - screen blurring is one response time thing and input lag is another.

Edited by deleted (Sun 10-Nov-13 03:21:35)

whats the model?

that would give you better replies, then other people can check the specs and give you more informed advice.

I overpaid for a samsung ue32f5000 a couple of months ago. I say overpaid as I got from my catalogue on a pay 12 months later deal so obviously I am paying their premium so its a £100 or so higher then the amazon price.

Funny enough its my first LCD tv, prior to thay I only had LCD with monitors.

Hours later after lots of research it seems the general guidelines are to set to movie mode for most natural colours and turn pretty much all postprocessing off. I havent tried using it for games tho but I can tell you the tv has a specific game mode in the options and this tv is considered entry level.

I be surprised if the extra refresh rates marketed make any real impact at all on games. The proof is in monitors, if these 200hz etc. marked refresh rates made a difference then the tech would be on pc monitors also.

Thanks, it's a Samsung UE42F5000 LED. I agree, I would think there is little to no difference and that if anything, the higher rates would be a disadvantage to the most competitive twitch gamers. All I care about is that it isn't a blurry mess and I don't think you have to spend £700 to avoid that these days. For watching I will stick to my Samsung 42" 768p (?) plasma, which has an amazingly clear picture even if the upscaling can be annoying with fast moving stuff like the footy.

I think I will be buying this LED anyway, at £379 with a 5 year warranty. The advent of Smart TV's have made these a real bargain IMO.

Richer Sounds are normally spot on, but this guy appears to be the manager and is always a chump. Unfortunately he always seems to be the only free assistant.....perhaps there's a lesson there.

I think this one is 100Hz mate, but will set back to 50Hz in game mode (which is the European standard, I think the US is 60Hz).

I think for movies, the all singing and dancing sets will show an improvement, but for gaming (and watching cartoons which is about the most common activity in my flippin' house ) it's of no real consequence.

It's a bit like cinema systems. Some people will spend £1000 just on the amp. Maybe if you work in sound engineering you can appreciate the detail. For me however, my £500 for the full system made Iron Man sound incredible, and that'll do for me.

In reply to a post by SPOOKish:

Had a google... It's nVidia G-Sync...

A proper good link that one mate, cheers.

We bought one of One of these about 18 months ago and it's superb.

Yesterday we went to currys and bought a led samsung 32 inch smart tv to replace the existing 32 samsung LCD tv,why there we bought one of These to go with it and again for price the sound is amazing.

Not near as much as the first one I mentioned that takes pride of place in the front room for Gaming but compared to the pathetic sound that comes from these ultra thin modern tv it's really nice.

Keeps her happy anyway because she won't see me much soon ,just listening to rapid fire of me filling you with a lot of lead shot

He's generally just going to bed about the time he posted that link early this morning

Try as I might with many direct buy a playstation 4 for launch links I sent him he ain't having none of it,let's hopefully bombard him with YouTube clips of me and you having a ball with Killzone.

Generally this game better blow my mind,because I've said a lot of positive things about it based on watching other people playing it and watching the many videos .

Really be shocked if I don't adore this game .

that price is very low, where is that from?

Its almost £100 less than amazon.

I assume the tv is the same spec as mine given the model number with the exception of the screen size. My tv has got good reviews for games.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

that price is very low, where is that from?

Its almost £100 less than amazon.

I assume the tv is the same spec as mine given the model number with the exception of the screen size. My tv has got good reviews for games.

It's the plastic fake display model in Richer Sounds Window

that tft site is ok, but the data is a bit outdated.

eg. my dell IPS monitor is way faster than all my TN screens, my TN screens cant even keep up with me moving my mouse around (yes I can visibly see a trail). My dell IPS (2209wa) performance feels like a CRT, prety much no shadows/trails on anything. Of course dell withdrew this monitor quickly because it was TOO good for the price.

On TV's you unlikely to come across TN panels as they designed for tv/movies mainly which TN isnt suited for, so it will generally either be VA or IPS. The samsung TV's should typically be S-PVA panels. But since tech is changing all the time, a VA panel of 2013 is probably vastly different to one of 2006 in lag etc.

I have 2 IPS screens in front of me now and they are noticebly different to each other. The dell has almost perfect viewing angles, pretty much no distortion whatsoever even at 178 degress, the IPS next to it one I got earlier this year (half the price I should add so I expect corners cut) has noticebly worse viewing angles, less sharp image but does have better contrast ratio due to been LED backlit and is proper HD with hdmi (the dell has no hdmi port and isnt full HD res). Also my dell is true 8 bit colours with the newer IPS been 6bit+FRC.

The sumsung tv you picked by the way is also LED backlit.

What I noticed with my samsung, is there is 2 block modes. One (I think the default) offers more black/grey detail, so you see more shades of grey but at the expense of brighter blacks, so black isnt so dark. The other mode has darker blacks but you lose black/grey detail, so grey eg. can also look black. In games I expect detail will be important so you will probably end up using the mode that has less darker blacks.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

that price is very low, where is that from?

Its almost £100 less than amazon.

I assume the tv is the same spec as mine given the model number with the exception of the screen size. My tv has got good reviews for games.

Exclusive to Richer Sounds I believe.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

that price is very low, where is that from?

Its almost £100 less than amazon.

I assume the tv is the same spec as mine given the model number with the exception of the screen size. My tv has got good reviews for games.

Amazon have it for the same price £379 but don't think it has the 5 year warranty.

Nice TV and 5 years warranty is brilliant, not often you see that included. Don't know why they say it is 1080p HD ready on that site when that is obviously full HD.

From the reviews I've read it sounds really good

Ah just found this http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/samsung-ue42f5000-42...

These TV's are plagued by the panel lottery, you have a 3/4 chance of getting a totally unsuitable TV with poor black levels, blurring and ghosting.
Ask if you can open the box and check the service menu first before you buy these, as unless you get the good panel, totally not worth the money.

http://www.hifivision.com/television/16161-samsung-l...

Blimey it does get confusing

http://www.pchardwarehelp.com/guides/lcd-panel-types...

I could do with a new tele as my 37" Samsung LCD is probably about 9 years old now and something like this with none of the smart stuff sounds perfect for me. I don't ever watch television programs and don't even have an aerial, all I use it for is to play games and watch dvds.

My set maybe old but the picture quality is fantastic even better than my mates new LG tele, hopefully this should be even better.


I read somewhere that 600Hz is plasma only

In reply to a post by Lt_Swan:

I don't ever watch television programs and don't even have an aerial, all I use it for is to play games and watch dvds.

So, do you know Spongebob Squarepants is then?

they have it from different sellers, I probably found a different one by accident. ok.

on mine the panel lottery also exists but is only one of 2 different panels so the odds are better, seems the 42" version is a worse lottery.

I confirmed via the tv service menu I have a s-pva.

by the way if you get the tv and use the service menu to check panel type, I highly suggest taking a picture of the screen incase you need to refer back to it at a later date, the reason is everytime you enter the service menu, even if you touch nothing and just view the information, all the settings on the tv get reset. so its not good having to reconfigure the tv every time.

Edited by Chrysalis (Mon 11-Nov-13 00:36:19)

Yes that can be annoying, I would rather the market place was a bit more separated.. something like ' item out of stock from Amazon but available from the following sellers...'

Hi, I have recently purchased this tv but when I play ps3 games (in particular Fifa 14) the picture quality seems very poor and not sharp at all. Does anyone have a good setting configuration they could suggest I try to sharpen up the picture for the best results. Many thanks in advance.

http://www.avforums.com/threads/samsung-ue42f5000-ps...


Bit more research seems that the Panasonic TX-L42B6B 42-inch might be a better option
£400 if you add Richer sounds 5 year guarantee on

Picture quality and gaming is amazing even for this price is unbelievable im a gamer while im not studying and this is better than i thought don't make the "50hz-60hz" refresh rate fool you this thing is amazing i know theirs way better models out their from Panasonic and other companies for gaming but they are all in the £1000+ range and if anyone disagrees with that then they are in pure denial in fact i believe this product should have been in the high £600 low £700 range for it's quality their is little minimum ghosting on games but absolutely next to no blur just wow people. GTA5 is great on this thing with other titles and TV watching in HD is beautiful all in all this is a 5 out of 5 from me this should be the best seller for its price definitely

I was going to get the" Samsung ue42f5000" i believe it's the best seller on this website and doing research seeing both in person this blows it out the water.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00BMQA6ZA/ref=cm_sw_r_fa...

Yea I know who he is

Right I am well and truly confused here but I am glad you have posted this as I was literally going to buy the F5000 42" Samsung LED one on the way home from work Friday but I held off as my mate brought his TV over.

I need to buy one and have had that in my mind for ages, but are you guys saying this Panasonic one would be better? I looked at the reviews on Amazon and they seem really good.

What am I meant to be looking for? The TV will ONLY be used for gaming so I want the right one. The Samsung says 100Hz and the Panasonic says 50Hz but some posts above make me think that doesn't matter? What's all this ghosting people are on about on the reviews?

Shall I just get the Panasonic then? Maybe I will pop into Currys see if they have one on display

Don't take anything I've posted as correct. I was going to buy the Samsung then changed my mind and thought about the Panasonic but now after further research I have absolutely no idea which to go for :/

All I can say is if you do go for the Samsung make sure you go for one with a serial number of either SS or SQ


This bloke seems to know what he's saying
http://www.hifivision.com/television/16161-samsung-l...

But in that post he is talking about LCD not LED but I guess that's still means the same ?

Edited by deleted (Mon 11-Nov-13 15:24:37)

Richer Sounds told me the Samsung was 50Hz, but their own description says 100Hz. I think most TVs in European countries are natively (if thats the right word) 50Hz (PAL) and in America 60Hz (NTSC). I think other than that, everything higher is post processed? But when you use the "game mode" settings, they revert to that native 50 or 60 Hz frequency anyway, I think.

I've got to be honest, I think the "panel lottery" is a bit misleading. Rather than three out of four being cr*p screens, I would suspect it more likely that if you are lucky, you will be the one in four that gets an above average screen.

I do like the sound of the Panasonic but if you look at the TV screens/stands they look identical and probably are, other than the software and electronic gubbings.

That said, I can't pick either and was leaning towards the Viera aswell!

Yes, they are the same thing mate, only thinner because the flourescent tubes in the back are replaced by LEDs.

Nicely explained here.

Thought this video might shed a little light about refresh rates and input lag,although its for the larger size screens and no mention of anything below 42inch.

Check it out�..

Glad my Samsung 8 series is a LED and Not a LCD going buy those comments.

For the love of God, don't do that again. Worst link ever.......EVER!

I went into Richer sounds today and asked about the panel lottery, some geezer there said you shouldn't believe stuff you read on forums :? So I asked him if he would check to see if the tele he was buying had a better or worst screen
They didn't have any stock anyway.

I then went into Currys and asked the boy in there about the Samsung. Straight away he tried to get me to buy a Sony W653 which just happens to be a £100 more :/
He said had a better processor and would be able to handle the PS4, whereas the Samsung would struggle for gaming. So I mentioned that the Samsung has a dedicated gaming mode. He then got a bit lost for reason why the Sony was worth another £100
I asked him if they could price match Richer sounds and he said no because their stuff isn't brand new

But while I was looking at the Samsung I took a picture of the serial number which is
B5MJ3HDD300366N Version 03

So no clues there about which panel it is until you look on the service screen..

That said, I can't pick either and was leaning towards the Viera aswell!

You can't say that it makes everything even more confusing

That video makes the panel lottery even more real :/

Just go and buy a normal television then you ungrateful pillowcase

Every television I have bought have never ever had any issues with games,so unless your buying them from a Jumble sale like Swanny then I wouldn't worry.

And asking glorified sales staff from Currys is a complete waste of time,most if not that majority are just sales assistants that know little to nothing about the products they are selling.

Only you Mr Nelster would get confused,but how your brain hurts is anyone's guess ....first of you got to have one

More than likely another excuse for when I whip your ass in a few weeks ,if it's not your super duper fibre connection it will be input lag on your TV,if it ain't that it will be your feeling tired after doing all the ironing .....Excuses,Excuses,Excuses .....Put some FPS on and get some practice in because Timeys on your trail

Edited by time2die (Mon 11-Nov-13 19:26:42)

.....Curry's!!!!!

I asked him if they could price match Richer sounds and he said no because their stuff isn't brand new

ROFLMAO

I've started ironing naked except for the ankle weights. Calf muscles are the most stubborn when it comes to adding mass apparently.

Read it on tintertnet laddy, so it must be true, right?

Every television I have bought have never ever had any issues with games

I think you are right mate. All sales bull.


And now the special offer price has gone up to £399. Doh!

Still think the Samsung will be better than the VIera though.

I like talking to Currys staff
I always do research before I buy something so always know more about the product than they do


That's a [censored] about the price going up :{

just because there is 4 panel types it doesnt mean is 75% chance to get bad, I expect they not evenly distributed meaning the samsung panel should be the dominant one out there.

I would just order, if you not happy with it after, then return it.

well different sites will say different things

here

to me the quoted figure is related to the tv processing ability for all the postprocessing [censored], so if you using it in gaming mode where all that is turned off it means nothing.

Don't laugh to much when you read the Private message i have sent you after me taking the Mickey for such a long time���Im embarrassed but it had to be done and i think there is more than meets the eye in this game.

If there isn't theres a invoice addressed to you and i want payback

Better have the promise you suggest ? else there even more Killzone Shadowfall bullets coming your way

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

well different sites will say different things

here

to me the quoted figure is related to the tv processing ability for all the postprocessing [censored], so if you using it in gaming mode where all that is turned off it means nothing.

Cheers good link

What about this Panasonic

Panasonic 42 Inch Full HD 1080p Freeview HD LED TV.

£359.99

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/915...

Doesn't say model number though

What about just buying a Samsung,Panasonic,Sony Tv and stop worrying about issues that just not there in reality.

It's all part of the buying process. Just walking into a shop and saying "I'll have that one" is boring

Thats why i usually say i will have those 6

I like to get the best deal on the best product. It's usually more fun finding that than actually having it

Went for this one in the end.

As the other one went up in price to £400 quid over the weekend while we were debating, I decided the extra 69 quid for smart wireless connectivity was probably sensible.

Plus the Samsungs have a cracking picture, whatever, whatever these internet experts say about panel lotteries.

When it comes to replacing the lounge plasma next year, I should get a really good price on a 46".

bear in mind the panel you get is still important tho as will affect viewing angles, contrast etc. still.

But I think dont worry too much regarding the postprocessing speed as you will have that disabled on game mode.

So are you going to check which panel you've won????

Good review of it here http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ue42f5500-201...


And they mention the refresh rate you were asking about

Although the UE42F5500 is advertised as featuring 100Hz Clear Motion Rate (CMR), this is purely a marketing term: the refresh rate of the underlying LCD panel is 50hz, though Samsung thinks that the display is capable of mimicking 100Hz motion through video processing.