BT and more line problems

Called my isp today to find out what was going on with my hard cap by bt.
They told me i had over 140000 retransmission in a 14 day period, think that's crc errors then
So they told me they going to run a test and see what's going on and i should call back in an hour.
One hour later and they tell me they could not carry out the test as something was already running a test and they had no idea what.
They have now logged a fault with bt, and just to make sure on my end i will now be using four different routers over a four day period from the test socket to test results with my isp
So tonight its a netgear dg834gt then 24 hours later its a dg384 v2 then a belkin F6D4630-4 V1 and then a Linksys WAG54GS
this has been a problem since November that i was sure that BT had fixed
my 1st fault in November was that my line would only work if i used my phone, so a bt engineer came out and swapped my line from the house to the cab and that sorted that problem but introduced a new one, that every time i used the phone the adsl would drop.
So after 2 more engineers my line from the cab to the exchange was changed and that fixed that problem and had great connection for 6 days at 4.5mb profile
i turned of the router to move it to the face plate to go wireless and my snr was raised from 6 to 12
So i contacted my isp and have done so for the last month about this and my line is now hard capped at 3070
So contacted my isp yesterday and they said they would request my snr be reset and i should call back today about that.
i call back today and have been told i have over 140000 retransmissions and they want to do a line test and i should call back in one hour again .
after one hour i call back and have been told they could not do a test as some one was already doing a test on my line and they had no idea who. so they have now logged a fault with BT
I am just so @@@@@ off with it all now

Edited by deleted (Fri 28-Jan-11 23:51:24)

Swapping routers while they are trying to sort out the problem is going to help how?

Isp would like to be sure its not my router that is causing the problems
So they can look at each day and make sure its the same and that it must be BTs fault

ok so i have been told that the errors are on the upstream side of things
this is upstream graph when a phone call is made upstream errors burst

and this is my ping on a good day

ping and jitter

done all the master socket test once again and still the same
no phones are plugged in and i called my number from my mobile

Just cant seem to get this sorted even after they stuck me on a new pair twice now
Bt have told my ISP that and engineer visit would be needed but had all this the last time and took 3 before they found the fault and the call out fee was cancelled

|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| WinMTR statistics |
| Host - % | Sent | Recv | Best | Avrg | Wrst | Last |
|------------------------------------------------|------|------|------|------|------|------|
| 192.168.0.1 - 0 | 23 | 23 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
| lns18.the.dsl.enta.net - 9 | 23 | 21 | 25 | 25 | 33 | 25 |
| gi1-8.the.dist.dsl.enta.net - 0 | 23 | 23 | 25 | 25 | 28 | 25 |
| te2-2.telehouse-east3.dsl.enta.net - 9 | 23 | 21 | 25 | 26 | 50 | 25 |
| te5-2.telehouse-east.core.enta.net - 9 | 23 | 21 | 25 | 25 | 29 | 25 |
| te5-1.telehouse-east2.core.enta.net - 18 | 23 | 19 | 25 | 26 | 38 | 26 |
| 212.58.238.177 - 18 | 23 | 19 | 25 | 25 | 27 | 25 |
| 212.58.238.153 - 5 | 23 | 22 | 25 | 26 | 37 | 29 |
| 212.58.239.62 - 9 | 23 | 21 | 25 | 25 | 26 | 26 |
| 212.58.251.44 - 5 | 23 | 22 | 25 | 26 | 31 | 26 |
| bbc-vip115.telhc.bbc.co.uk - 5 | 23 | 22 | 25 | 25 | 26 | 26 |
|________________________________________________|______|______|______|______|______|______|

In reply to a post by iwish:

Looks better and easier to read like this :-

|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|                                      WinMTR statistics                                   |
|                       Host              -   %  | Sent | Recv | Best | Avrg | Wrst | Last |
|------------------------------------------------|------|------|------|------|------|------|
|                             192.168.0.1 -    0 |   23 |   23 |    0 |    0 |    1 |    0 |
|                  lns18.the.dsl.enta.net -    9 |   23 |   21 |   25 |   25 |   33 |   25 |
|             gi1-8.the.dist.dsl.enta.net -    0 |   23 |   23 |   25 |   25 |   28 |   25 |
|      te2-2.telehouse-east3.dsl.enta.net -    9 |   23 |   21 |   25 |   26 |   50 |   25 |
|      te5-2.telehouse-east.core.enta.net -    9 |   23 |   21 |   25 |   25 |   29 |   25 |
|     te5-1.telehouse-east2.core.enta.net -   18 |   23 |   19 |   25 |   26 |   38 |   26 |
|                          212.58.238.177 -   18 |   23 |   19 |   25 |   25 |   27 |   25 |
|                          212.58.238.153 -    5 |   23 |   22 |   25 |   26 |   37 |   29 |
|                           212.58.239.62 -    9 |   23 |   21 |   25 |   25 |   26 |   26 |
|                           212.58.251.44 -    5 |   23 |   22 |   25 |   26 |   31 |   26 |
|              bbc-vip115.telhc.bbc.co.uk -    5 |   23 |   22 |   25 |   25 |   26 |   26 |
|________________________________________________|______|______|______|______|______|______|

(See the added line feed).

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 01-Feb-11 07:54:12)

Thanks

If you click the Quote button against my post where I have aligned things you will see at the start of the table the letters pre in square brackets, and the corresponding /pre at the end of the table. I've just edited to add a line space as well, but it auto-adds one at the end - see the edited version (in Quote) as well.

Works well for most sets of line stats as well, though occasional slight problems that need spaces adding or taking out. Or sometimes in a table you need to copy/paste the gap between two items to add to or replace the gap between two others, as that copies the tab characters in there which of course you cannot type.

Abandon the quote once you have seen it .

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 01-Feb-11 07:58:01)

does the code tag make a decent job ? :-

Text

1 23 45 67 89

Host                                                        Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev  1. home                                                      0.0% 58343    1.8   1.1   0.9 126.0   9.0 2. anchor-hg-1-lo100.router.demon.net                        0.9% 58343   37.8  32.4  31.8 519.5  13.5  3. anchor-access-3-s2004.router.demon.net                    1.0% 58343   35.1  33.3  31.8 446.7  17.4 4. anchor-inside-4-g1-0-3.router.demon.net                   0.2% 58343   34.9  32.8  31.8 538.0  11.1  5. anchor-border-2-g4-0-0.router.demon.net                   0.9% 58343   37.6  33.1  31.9 500.2  13.9 6. 195.11.50.25                                              0.8% 58343   34.1  34.3  31.8 619.0  30.3  7. vlan821.sw1.c16.iph.lon.as5587.net                        0.3% 58342   34.2  34.2  32.0 539.3  12.4 8. demon-web-1.dvs.demon.net                                 1.1% 58342   36.7  34.1  31.9 478.9  15.5

note the decent sample size

Bursty noise is something ADSL has to accept sometimes, e.g. it can be as simple as a train going by on an electric line every 30 minutes.

14,000 CRC errors a day (if that is them) is not that bad. Is it affecting throughput?

If these are just upstream it is more complex, since upstream has no DLM, and upstream is more likely to be affected by telephony issues e.g. filters/wiring/joints

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Bursty noise is something ADSL has to accept sometimes, e.g. it can be as simple as a train going by on an electric line every 30 minutes.

14,000 CRC errors a day (if that is them) is not that bad. Is it affecting throughput?

If these are just upstream it is more complex, since upstream has no DLM, and upstream is more likely to be affected by telephony issues e.g. filters/wiring/joints

if i plug the router into the test socket on its own and call my phone number via my mobile, i get loads of upstream errors
100 per min
sometimes it can hit the 1000
was told my errors are far to above the thresh hold by my ISP and that it does indicate a real problem
Web pages are slow to react and i have really bad packet loss at all times.
Gaming online is now impossible
BT could see it was so bad that they put a hard cap on the line to try fix the issue
It hasn't worked
My isp said it does sound like a filter problem, but as i have tryed everything at my end, they think it could be the filtering at bt side of things

Edited by deleted (Tue 01-Feb-11 11:23:43)

Dodgy joint somewhere is where my money is

the last time i had upstream errors "December" the adsl would drop every time the phone was used.
They swapped everything from the house to the exchange and was ok for 2 days then i got this
What i will do is run the router from the test socket with another filter just to show you the errors
and my line is now on interleaving at my request, but does not help any

ok this is me ringing my own number with only the router on the line for 5 seconds
before stats

Noise Margin: 6.9 dB
Connection Rate: 888 Kbps
Line Attenuation: 32.0 dB
Power: 12.9 dBm
Max Rate: 888 Kbps

SuperFrames: 31278
SF (CRC) Errors: 0
Reed Solomon: 563010
RS Corrected: 0
RS Un-Corrected: 0
HEC: 0
Errored Seconds: 0
Severe ES: 0

Interleave Depth: 8
Bitswaps: 12


after stats

Noise Margin: 7.2 dB
Connection Rate: 888 Kbps
Line Attenuation: 32.0 dB
Power: 12.9 dBm
Max Rate: 888 Kbps

SuperFrames: 34650
SF (CRC) Errors: 18
Reed Solomon: 623700
RS Corrected: 183
RS Un-Corrected: 0
HEC: 81
Errored Seconds: 14
Severe ES: 0

Interleave Depth: 8
Bitswaps: 14

Edited by deleted (Tue 01-Feb-11 12:06:30)

|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|                                      WinMTR statistics                                   |
|                       Host              -   %  | Sent | Recv | Best | Avrg | Wrst | Last |
|------------------------------------------------|------|------|------|------|------|------|
|                             192.168.0.1 -    0 |  183 |  183 |    0 |    0 |    1 |    0 |
|                  lns16.the.dsl.enta.net -    5 |  183 |  174 |   40 |   42 |  206 |   41 |
|             gi1-6.the.dist.dsl.enta.net -    4 |  183 |  176 |   40 |   42 |  312 |   42 |
|      te2-2.telehouse-east3.dsl.enta.net -    4 |  183 |  176 |   40 |   44 |  352 |   41 |
|      te5-2.telehouse-east.core.enta.net -    3 |  183 |  178 |   40 |   43 |  236 |   42 |
|     te5-1.telehouse-east2.core.enta.net -    3 |  183 |  179 |   41 |   42 |   73 |   41 |
|                        enta-gw.ncuk.net -    0 |  183 |  183 |   41 |   47 |  440 |   41 |
|  gi0-24-10-star1.core-rs2.thdo.ncuk.net -    2 |  183 |  181 |   41 |   44 |  229 |   43 |
|                  www.thinkbroadband.com -    0 |  183 |  183 |   41 |   43 |  331 |   42|
|________________________________________________|______|______|______|______|______|______|

A fault that needs people to physically check bits of the line and not be played around with remotely looking at the DSL stats.

No point in all the pings with the line behaving like that.

So do you think i should go with the engineer visit and hope for the best this time

Thats my upstream stats just incase ya think its my downstream


Downstream side
WAN: 0 days, 01:06:02
Noise Margin: 12.4 dB
Connection Rate: 3788 Kbps
Line Attenuation: 52.0 dB
Power: 0.0 dBm
Max Rate: 4652 Kbps

SuperFrames: 233075
SF (CRC) Errors: 32
Reed Solomon: 8041096
RS Corrected: 839
RS Un-Corrected: 402
HEC: 25
Errored Seconds: 14
Severe ES: 0

Interleave Depth: 16
Bitswaps: 284

Edited by deleted (Tue 01-Feb-11 12:54:55)

It is very variable with the engineer visits, since at first glance the line stats are ok only when you drill into the error stats, which the site engineers may or may not be used to.

ADSL is a specialist subject, and while the engineers are trained, they are not ADSL experts. So be sure to explain the issue arises only when using the telephone, don't confuse things with pings/speedtests, just stick to the raw ADSL errors.

Ok we have 2 engineers that cover my area
One is great and knows all about line stats and errors, and will listen to what u have to say and look at the errors
the second one comes into your house tells you to leave him to it then walks away saying its your fault
The good engineer did say that i should report him as he has had loads of complaints about him from houses he had to go back to and fix the faults
Will give it a go and hope i get the good guy

In reply to a post by iwish:

Ok we have 2 engineers that cover my area
One is great and knows all about line stats and errors, and will listen to what u have to say and look at the errors
the second one comes into your house tells you to leave him to it then walks away saying its your fault
The good engineer did say that i should report him as he has had loads of complaints about him from houses he had to go back to and fix the faults
Will give it a go and hope i get the good guy

I seem to recall from your other posts that these problems started around Dec last year. I posted to some of your posts then. I had the same identical problems as you have. I to had many engineer visits and my line was capped. This was good for a few days then the problems would just restart eg resync and very high eroors on upstream only. On the very last visit i even had my ADSLNation faceplate ripped out and replaced by BT with one of theirs. Even after the visit the problems remained. That is untill a week ago when one day the router rebooted at a higher sync and the upstream errors and problems seem to dissapear on its own. My connection seems OK. My problems all started when BT upgraded my connection to ADSL2+ which i didnt ask for in the first place. I dont no how long this stability will last.
The only other thing that has happened since my line mysteriously correcting itself is one of the neigbours has sold up and left the street. That house is now vacant. I now that ADSL2 is more prone to interfernce and noise. I currently suspect either some faulty equipment at that house which is now removed or cross talk on my line which for the time being is not effecting me. The new occupants are moving in next week so will keep an eye on my connection to see if the problem returns when they move in.

Did your problems start on a upgrade to ADSL2+

Had it before the upgrade
I do think i have the same problem as you and am sure Mr S got it right with the bad joint reason
Also found that my neighbour has the same fault as me but does not want to risk a call out fee

WAN: 0 days, 12:18:37

SuperFrames: 2606938
SF (CRC) Errors: 224
Reed Solomon: 89939390
RS Corrected: 11917
RS Un-Corrected: 3220
HEC: 207
Errored Seconds: 67
Severe ES: 2

Interleave Depth: 16
Bitswaps: 3670

If they have changed your line on the D and E side, lift and shft and equipment at the excahnge it could be water or moisture in one of the underground joints. Its getting someone who will investigate this . At the moment BT seem very eager just to do a PQ test and if that shows satisfactory at the time of the test then they will not do any more.
If your neighbour also has the same problem that gives you more ammo to get this investigated further.

I also have had the errors come back on the upstream since last night but luckily the disconnections have not happened yet like previously on the incomming calls.

Started to rain last night and this is what i woke upto
WAN: 0 days, 19:06:54
Noise Margin: 10.9 dB
Connection Rate: 3941 Kbps
Line Attenuation: 51.0 dB
Power: 0.0 dBm
Max Rate: 4280 Kbps

SuperFrames: 4047929
SF (CRC) Errors: 26795
Reed Solomon: 291450890
RS Corrected: 188062
RS Un-Corrected: 1789211
HEC: 6502
Errored Seconds: 1018
Severe ES: 653

Interleave Depth: 32
Bitswaps: 6556

Also my snr is going mad
will give Isp a call

Small update
We are waiting for a BT engineer to come and look at our ADSL today
We can collect over 600 severely errored seconds in a 2 hour period and both up and down snr was going like a heart beat
Bang on 12:39 today snr was spot on and all down stream errors stopped
Upstream errors still go mad if we phone our line from a mobile phone, and that's with no phone plugged in and the router at the test socket

Think Engineer has probably found something wrong at the exchange before he comes out
Will ask when he does

Edited by deleted (Fri 04-Feb-11 13:21:04)

New and i hope will be last update
Bt engineer came to the house and did all the tests and could not find any fault
I said no way buddy, so he says he will do one last check, and this will be from the cabinet.
50 mins late i get a call, HRF found when test was done from the cabinet
Fault is with the hardware at the exchange
So 3 month later and we now have a working line again
Lets see it this is the last of my troubles

Keep us updated.

The errors on my upstream have reappaered also. Been watching your posts for a long time and your symptons are nearly identical to mine including the BT visits and their findings. I think its only a matter of time before my re-syncs begin again. The engineer who came here last time also said although at that time he couldnt find anything he strongly believed it was faulty itermitent exchange equipment and software bugs? Not sure what he ment by this.
It is very frustrating to wait for the dam thing to completyly breakdown before BT resolves the issue

BT engineers have there hands tied to be honest
how bad are the errors on your line over a 2 hour period
today i had 649 server bad errors in just over 2 hours
I told him that my ISP had logged all errors as proof of line problems and that BT had also installed a hard cap in order to help the line and in no way was i going to let him walk away and declare the line fault free and i get hit with a bill
no idea why the fault does not show from the house but does from the cabinet

This is my line stats after an hour... note my fault will not be fixed until tomorrow

SF (CRC) Errors: 36
Reed Solomon: 15623350
RS Corrected: 1306
RS Un-Corrected: 543
HEC: 33
Errored Seconds: 18
Severe ES: 1

Interleave Depth: 16
Bitswaps: 676

In reply to a post by iwish:

BT engineers have there hands tied to be honest
how bad are the errors on your line over a 2 hour period
today i had 649 server bad errors in just over 2 hours
I told him that my ISP had logged all errors as proof of line problems and that BT had also installed a hard cap in order to help the line and in no way was i going to let him walk away and declare the line fault free and i get hit with a bill
no idea why the fault does not show from the house but does from the cabinet

This is my line stats after an hour... note my fault will not be fixed until tomorrow

SF (CRC) Errors: 36
Reed Solomon: 15623350
RS Corrected: 1306
RS Un-Corrected: 543
HEC: 33
Errored Seconds: 18
Severe ES: 1

Interleave Depth: 16
Bitswaps: 676

It can vary quite a lot. When the line use to re-sync on incomming calls the RS uncorrected at sync could be as high as 10 million but once synced just a few hundred over the following hour.
I am currently showing about 753 for the last few days. Something i have noticed is ny line use to be very clean with no errors on the upstream untill BT ugraded the exchange and my line on 15 Dec 2010 to ADSL2+. That is the day my problems started, I go on to FTTC next week so i am really hoping its exchange equipment and NOT the Dside cabling. I no like yours when the problems start the engineer can normally get the same problem with incomming calls breaking the sync at the cab and at the exchange. Last time they reckoned they changed the equipment but the problem was still there. Then they did some software tweaks at the exchange and that seemed to help on maintaining sync bit some upstream errors were still there. That was on the third visit.

Well nothing has been done to resolve the fault and am not happy
Angry phone call to ISP tomorrow
Stats and do tell me how bad you think these are
WAN: 1 days, 08:00:20
Noise Margin: 11.0 dB
Connection Rate: 3666 Kbps
Line Attenuation: 52.0 dB
Power: 0.0 dBm
Max Rate: 3920 Kbps

SuperFrames: 6777685
SF (CRC) Errors: 56680
Reed Solomon: 227052424
RS Corrected: 668850
RS Un-Corrected: 1420690
HEC: 43354
Errored Seconds: 2280
Severe ES: 1393

Interleave Depth: 16
Bitswaps: 11109

Internet is of no use to any of us right now
downloads are useless
Online gaming is a no go
And am really fed up

where are you?

In reply to a post by iwish:

Well nothing has been done to resolve the fault and am not happy
Angry phone call to ISP tomorrow
...
Internet is of no use to any of us right now
downloads are useless
Online gaming is a no go
And am really fed up

No your not.

You are just insisting on trying to solve a problem you don't need to have, as you agreed weeks ago.

Just go LLU for a better product even if your current one were faultless.

You have even said yourself in these forums in more than one of your own threads about it that if it continues you will do that.

What are you trying to do? Give yourself a stress heart attack?

Oh, and yes, I agree this should have been fixed weeks ago. But it is either the BT exchange DSLAM/DLM or your end, and seems most likely to be the former. If it is your end it will never be solved by ukfsn/BT, if it is the exchnage then LLU removes you from that system.

As you have known for ages.

Life's too short.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 07-Feb-11 09:43:12)

Your stats do show a lot of errors. Defantly check that your house wiring, router and router PSU are good.
I think RobertoS advice is right. In my case i am sure its BT exchange equipment on the 21CN ADSL2 product which has problems on some lines. I was at my brothers this weekend down south and guess what. He also has the same problems as us. He has a 47db att line and use to have a great sync untill September last year when he got transfered to ADSL2. He is currently syncing at 2234kbps. And thats only because any lower it afects the BT Vision service. They have currently capped his line to ensure that BT Vision works.
He is also going to give BT a last chance for a fix otherwise he is of to SKY LLU.

I really hope they sought you out and fix the problem. I now from personal experience how frustrating this problem is in getting a resulution.

The thing is what if i do go LLU and the fault follows me
I want this resolved before i do anything
the Engineer has seen a fault and it should have been fixed

Called MY ISP enatanet and they had a look at my line and agree that the fault had not yet been fixed
They are now chasing it up with BT and have to call back at 5pm

I don't think it would be wise to jump ISP while BT are still fixing my fault
Yes it could be that if i move to LLU right now then the fault would go away
But what if it does not go away, Would have to start all over again

Router is at the test point with one corded phone
Fault is not at my end

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/technical/t/3957651...

Snap, I had the same problem as you. I did all the same tests and had 6 diagnostic test by bt wholesale all saying no fault found but Entanet could see the faults on my line. Engineer came out and found no fault at all at my end, and so far luckily I havent been billed for the engineer. Enatanet and myself thought fault was with the bt exchange, bt kept saying no fault found. Gave up and switched to vivaciti surfwise ( talk talk llu but with 1 month contract ) which bypassed bt's ageing dlm and my lines rock solid and fast again.

Oh and as far as im aware, BT still say there is no fault on their dlm.

Well BT took note of the engineers report and now want to send another engineer
Does that mean that BT don't trust the engineers report as it means they would need to spend money
If i knew if it was indeed a fault at the exchange then i would just bee off to LLU right now
But i am not sure what's going on, so will see out the fault then run

In reply to a post by iwish:

Well BT took note of the engineers report and now want to send another engineer
Does that mean that BT don't trust the engineers report as it means they would need to spend money
If i knew if it was indeed a fault at the exchange then i would just bee off to LLU right now
But i am not sure what's going on, so will see out the fault then run

If your lucky you might get a good engineer this time who is eager to get this resolved.
If you are unlucky this next engineer will come and fit one of their faceplates and the saga will continue.

I am basing this on my and my brothers events.

Hopefully you will get a good engineer

What i don't get is the engineer that came out on Friday said he found a high resistance fault at the exchange but now they want to send another engineer out
Already have a BT faceplate v1.0

I am having a lift and shift done and i have been told they have one engineer at my home while another does the work at the exchange
Is this right?

In reply to a post by iwish:

What i don't get is the engineer that came out on Friday said he found a high resistance fault at the exchange but now they want to send another engineer out
Already have a BT faceplate v1.0

I thought you already had a lift and shift done sometime ago?
Perhaps a nother lift and shift may resolve the issue
Defantly worth a try

never had a lift and shift done ever
Have had my line replaced from pole to house then swapped from pole to the exchange
The bt engineer from Friday said the kit in my exchange was really old
think it runs of a 50p meter