Problem with BT master socket.

I've had a problem for a month now where come 5PM ish my BB is up and down until the early hours and its sometimes bearable, but sometimes not.
These drops have been confirmed by my ISP, Zen.
They are happy that the line test was OK and as I've now found what the problem is I agree with them.

Cutting a long story short, I have the usual set up, a hidden master socket with an external socket on the front cover.
If I'm plugged into the master socket everything works 24/7.
If I'm plugged into the external socket or any other socket, come 5PM its up and down time, but its fine all day.
How is this even possible?
If it was a loose connection it would do it all the time surely?

Any ideas anyone?

TIA
Paul

What's connected to the front plate of the NTE ? Is there any extension wiring connected ?

Nothing is connected to the external front socket and evey other connection, phone and Sky have also been pulled out of there respective sockets around the house. Though whether they was in or out made no difference anyway.

The only thing I have plugged in is a 10M extension cable to get up to my router.
I have also during testing had just the router hanging out of it as well.

Thanks for speedy reply,
Paul

I'll just add in case I'm asked, that its deffo not HW related, I've tried two routers and plenty of filters and cables. It just seems to be a weird problem with the NTE.

You need to make an accurate description of your wiring, how many extensions, whats connected to these, etc, etc. What filters are you using, and where.







Sorry for the typo's, it' Saturday night, and the red wine's getting the better of me !

It would be odd if it were the NTE itself that were causing the issues. more likely, something connected to it.

Lucky for you having wine, I'm on call and canna touch a drop

OK, its a 5 year old house and its been working perfectly for at least 3 of those years.

2 phone sockets in lounge which would have the phone and sky in them, but they are unplugged at the wall. It doesn't affect the problem if they are in though anyway.

1 socket in the small bedroom/office, I normally have an extension going to my router from this one, buts it empty.

1 NTE in hall way where the extension lead is currently heading up the stairs to my router.

Basically its a virgin set up at the mo, only the router is connected.
Its not a problem with the filter or extension, they are perfectly OK.

If I plug the extension into the front socket on the NTE now, my BB will start going up and down on me. It really does seem like the NTE has a timer on it.

During the day its perfectly OK, but come 4PM I have to plug my extension direct into the master socket to keep the BB stable.
Plus side of that being no one can call us on the land line

FYI: I'm an IT engineer specializing in fibre, networks, SANs, robotic tape libraries etc etc.
I test stuff all day long and this has got me beat.

Is anything connected to the faceplate that is disconnected when you remove it?

Sorry I think I've misunderstood you both.
The face plate covering the master socket does have wires attached to it, it can't be 'pulled right off'.

Paul

Sorry, I'm going to need a photo.

Hopefully these will work, they're off my Blackberry so they are a bit [censored].

http://img16.imageshack.us/i/18288350109711014563402...

http://img716.imageshack.us/i/1815195010969601456340...

Paul

Cheers. I would say it's those wires and whatever is attached to them that is causing the problem, not the NTE5.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Sorry I think I've misunderstood you both.
The face plate covering the master socket does have wires attached to it, it can't be 'pulled right off'.

Paul

What colour wire is attached to which terminal?

It is possible one of the problems is the actual cabling used if it was installed by the builders. The colours and terminal numbers will probably confirm or rule out this factor.

This wouldn't explain the time of day issue though.

Do you have a phone-wired burglar alarm? If so, is it filtered at the control panel end?

Ah, your photo links were posted while I was typing. hard to tell with that lighting - probably the right cable, impossible to see whether connected correctly. So a list of the colours on each terminal woul be useful. T2 and T5 should have one each from each incoming wire, so if you could also say which ones are paired that is also important.

OK, the cabling is a bit faded, but ;

T5: Blue stripe on white
T4: Orange stripe on white
T3: White stripe on orange
T2: White stripe on blue

2 others going inside from same bit of cable white stripe on green and vica versa.

The alarm as far as I know does not call out and it hasn't in the past, we was not told that it did anyway. As far as this causing the problem is concerned, surely when the front panel is put back on its then connected to all the cabling in the house so why single just these cables out?
Also how could I find out what they are for, I don't want to mess with them in case it is the alarm, not tonight anyway.


Its time for my 'I'm on call one can of cold ale' ooh how I saviour it when I can only have the one

Thanks for the help though guys.

Paul

You only need 2 and 5 connected. Usually, the problems are caused by 3 being connected. Disconnect 3 and 4 and everything will be fine .

The question has to be asked, usually by my customers to me
Why was it working before then?

However, thanks and I'll try it tomorrow in case it is connected to the alarm LOL

The problem is usually due to RFI - noise. Often caused by some electronic device failing, or a new source recently introduced..

My ISP did ask if anything new had been introduced, but there hasn't been.
I'm still surprised at how time sensitive this problem is, its really very strange.
I'll try it in the morning, but will have to wait till tomorrow night to see if it will do any good.
I'll post back with the results, thanks for the input though, its appreciated!

Paul

The colours are fine, they show the correct cable is in use .

As BatBoy says re T3 and T4, but don't cut them, just gently lift out of the jaws of the terminals. Fine-nosed pliers are best. Just make sure they won't make contact with any terminals when you replace the faceplate.

Be careful not to disturb T2 and T5, they do all the work.

As I said, this is unlikely to deal with the timing problem, but it may. It will almost certainly benefit the connection in general though.

The plug-in extension cable is also probably a noise source as well I'm afraid. Those usually have T3 connected. Fixing that can be messy, see towards the end of this page.

What time does your central heating come on?
Do you have a Sky box, is it on a filter, has the box been replaced?
If you have a Sky box, what happens if you turn it off and disconnect it from power and the line when the problem is occurring??

The extension cable is just a temp thing anyway that I've been using for testing.
I had already considered the heating and ruled it out.
The Sky box didn't have a filter on originally, but it does now, however it was working fine without one. I hadn't noticed because I wasn't here when it was installed and I don't use it personally anyway.

I've ruled out the Sky box by disconnecting it from the phone socket, how would turning the actual box off make a difference?
I ask as 'its been programmed for all my stuff'.

I've already removed the wires and I'm currently set up with everything back to how it should be.

Personally, I can't see removing the wires as fixing the timing cut outs, but if I get a boost in performance from it, thats a result in itself, so thanks for that.
I'm basically just waiting now for the magic hour to arrive!

Does turning the Sky box power off lose the settings? I have no idea as have never had and will never have one.

The only problem with leaving the power on that occurs to me is any RF interference coming from the power supply. Sky Box unfiltered would have been screwing the broadband performance, even if it didn't disconnect it. Double filtering it can also help.

Good luck, we will be watching!

I really don't know what it would do if the power was cut, but the threats of violence I got when I suggested it where not to be ignored

The Sky box is in the lounge and is plugged into the phone socket behind the TV.
This has been unplugged during testing and the main testing I've done has been from the NTE in the hallway via the extension line. I can stick a second filter on it, but again we hit the whole timing aspect of this problem.

If removing the 2 wires fixes this problem I'll be amazed and even more confused than I am now.
One of my customers is BT so I'll be calling in a few favours tomorrow and see where that gets me.

Thanks for all your help though and 4 more hours to go
Paul

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Does turning the Sky box power off lose the settings?

No - it doesn't.

In reply to a post by JonRennie:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Does turning the Sky box power off lose the settings?

No - it doesn't.

Nor the (series?) recording sets?

From the sticker visible on the front of the NTE, yours is a fairly recent build house. The issue with this is that an electrician will have run in the extension wiring whilst fitting the electric cabling. For sure there will be little or no difference in the cables route, and it is most likely picking up some induction. As suggested elsewhere, unscrew every socket, and detach all terminated wires apart from those in 5 and 2 (should be white/blue and blue/white throughout). Then see how it fairs. Worst case scenario, buy a faceplate filter and use powerline adaptors to get t'internet where you want it.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by JonRennie:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Does turning the Sky box power off lose the settings?

No - it doesn't.

Nor the (series?) recording sets?

No. In fact a power off/on is often the solution to stuttering and lip-sync problems.

Well no disconnects as yet and I would have expected at least one by now

In most houses there is usually a routine of the 9-5 variety so that could make it easier to create and then track down a time related problem like this.
However in this house everyone works all manner of weird hours and there is no routine at all.

Just to clarify, I've only removed T3 & T4 at the NTE.
I can do the rest of the sockets, but will wait to see how this goes.

Will update later, thanks again.

Paul

OK had the first one, hopefully it was just a one off glitch.

Is it possible that removing T3 & T4 at the NTE has helped it last this long and removing them at all the others would improve it further?

I kind of figured it would be like a ring circuit and terminating them at the NTE would break it?

Is it necessary to remove them from a socket that isn't being used as well?

TIA
Paul

In theory disconnecting T3 and T4 at the NTE should be sufficient. Certainly doing it there is where the major effect usually results.

In practice there have been reports that also disconnecting at all other sockets has helped a little. This does include those not in use.

The problem is that the ring wire in particular acts as a radio antenna, picks up electomagnetic noise, and puts it onto the incoming line which only has T2 and T5 equivalents.

This is the problem with a plug-in phone extension cable. You introduce the ring wire usually found in those.

Well I've only had the one disconnect so that is a result!
Its not really a proper test tonight as I'm home alone so all the other stuff is dormant, but it is a good sign.

I've had the odd disconnect before and there must have been others I've missed, but the connection has been pretty damn good and the only time I've ever had to contact Zen before was for a totally stupid thing that I should have known anyway, they do provide a good service and I have no complaints.

I still can't get my head around why doing what I've done has fixed the problem though its just so weird!

I usually turn the router off when I'm done, but I'm going to leave it on for a few days and monitor it, I'll report back here with my findings.

As this has been the first stable night I've had with everything plumbed in as it should be since the problem started, I cannot thank you guys enough!

Paul

Hi Paul, I've been reading through your thread, and found it quite interesting. The people here are happy to help, but when they see "Anonymous" it can be hard to differentiate.

If you registered with this site (which is FREE), you would get a lot more help & replies.

This site doesn't spam you, and you could keep a log & graph of your speedtests. You would see and be able to post in every forum. You WILL love it, and I will even give it a 30 minute guarantee (starting an hour ago).

Enjoy!

Registered

My ISP has replied back with this

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm

Its probably well known about on this site, but figured I'd share anyway.

Not directly connected with the specific problem but back about 1996, I was assisting a BT Engineer to locate a problem with a simple phone installation.

Although I have never been a phone engineer, several of my basic qualifications were in that field; and I have occasionally done phone work over the years as an incidental to radar, radio and computing work - the latter including major networks.

The problem was really loud noise on the line, the line coming in the back window of the house, to an old-style screw-terminal box. The noise was occasionally "painful".

The line was then continued through that room to the hall at the front, where the one "simple" 1980s phone was installed.

No extensions, no power adaptors, no battery or external power to the phone etc.

Totally disconnected at the master box - noise continued

With the master disconnected, phone disconnected BT Test Phone produced same noise.

Checked the internal wiring, all surface and easily seen - noise continued.

There was an extreme medical emergency situation in the household (Easter Sunday to compound matters), so we replaced the master socket with the early version of the present design, and managed to connect the domestic phone to it, all at that rear window - SILENCE, no noise!

The original, now totally isolated, internal wiring continued to produce the noise, when tested again with the BT Test Phone.

Two, very puzzled persons!

Have you thought about getting a Pre-filtered faceplate
This and running a twisted pair RJ11-RJ11 cable This to your router?

Installing this faceplate, and hardwireing your alarm, extensions etc into the faceplate, will have no effect on your broadband because it is filtered at the source

Alarms should not be wired to an NTE5 faceplate. Removing the faceplate would set off the alarm at the monitoring station.

I see that, and well done!!

The website that you linked too is VERY good. Good idea to bookmark that site. It's good for referencing stuff.

You can see tweaking info if you scroll down to the bottom of this page. You can see the same info in my sig, as well as other stuff too.
If you ever need help with anything, just ask. This site is free, as is the advice.

Enjoy!

In reply to a post by Bewsh:

Have you thought about getting a Pre-filtered faceplate
This and running a twisted pair RJ11-RJ11 cable This to your router?

Installing this faceplate, and hardwireing your alarm, extensions etc into the faceplate, will have no effect on your broadband because it is filtered at the source

The problem is fixed now as I've had no more disconnects.

That plate is a good idea, but the location of my NTE in the hallway would mean having a cable hanging out of the wall and routing it to where I need it would be very messy.