£53,000 to install a phone!

This item has appeared in several Scottish daily newspapers...

A couple have been quoted £53K to have a phone line installed by BT.

Whereas I'm sure all their other services - electricity, water etc. have been supplied free of charge...not.

lol they'll have to get a sip/voip line on the satellite broadband lmao although cant see it been fantastic beats 53K lol

Ash

I thought April Fools' Day was yesterday.

So what about the USO for providing a basic phone line?

In reference to stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/uso/main/:

1.1 Universal Service ensures that basic fixed line services are available at an affordable price to all citizen-customers across the UK

1.12 USO is currently funded by BT and Kingston as the obligations have not previously been considered to represent an unfair burden on them. Ofcom has considered how the costs and benefits to BT of providing USO might have changed in recent years. Ofcom�s indicative estimates suggest that since 2001 the costs of serving uneconomic customers have fallen significantly while the costs of providing uneconomic payphones have risen sharply by a similar amount.

I suppose it depends how you define 'reasonable'. It doesn't have to mean 'cheap'. £10,000 is not reasonable for a skateboard but it's very reasonable for a new family car. Do we have any evidence that the line doesn't require £53,000 of work and plant?

As for the USO:

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/uso/s...

"1.12 BT and Kingston are required to provide a connection upon reasonable request and at uniform prices, irrespective of geographical location. This requirement is particularly valuable to customers in remote rural areas whom the market might otherwise not serve. Where installation of a new line costs £3,400 or less, BT sets a standard charge. Where installation will cost over £3,400, BT requires the customer to pay the excess costs (plus its standard connection charge). Ofcom has concluded that a threshold is a sensible approach and that the £3,400 level is reasonable. Ofcom is now proposing to consent to BT charging non-uniform prices above £3,400 and proposing to publish guidance which will suggest BT applies the standard charge when costs exceed £3,400 for particularly vulnerable customers."

My advice, get a satellite connection and a SIP gate phone number with a local area code and number of their choice. Under USO BT have to provide, but are free to pass on fair cost of the work that needs doing. They should of really thought about building in the middle of feck all and taken note of the lack of infrastructure (street cabs, poles that sorta thing)

Guess yours trumps mine as it is later

OK, thanks for the details. So much for the USO.

According to the referenced news item:

a new-build down the road took over their line.
To install a line, BT would have to run it just over a mile from the main road. But the company say the case is one of the rare examples where additional fees must be charged.

So there must already be an existing cable duct or telephone poles, so why would BT want to charge this excessive amount of £53 000 for a new line? Something doesn't add up here.

In reply to a post by JNeuhoff:

So there must already be an existing cable duct or telephone poles, so why would BT want to charge this excessive amount of £53 000 for a new line? Something doesn't add up here.

I see. If this quote is an exaggeration then BT are risking the wrath of Ofcom and perhaps even legal action.

So you're trying to imply..what exactly? Do you think perhaps they own a competing B&B in the area and are trying to stifle the competition?

Or perhaps this couple are actually Talk Talk customers at another property and that has so enraged BT that it is determined to prevent them getting a line installed in revenge?

That the hole in BT's pension fund is so large that BT are using this quote to help plug it?

Please explain to me why one of the UK's biggest companies is trying to overcharge someone for having a telephone line run to their property.

Edited by Andrue (Mon 04-Apr-11 08:08:22)

Has anyone read the article...

The £53,000 was for the preferred option of underground ducting.
Price reduced to £16,000 if I recall for telegraph poles.

There is a case for the USO price being subject to inflation, as it has not been adjusted for some years.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

There is a case for the USO price being subject to inflation, as it has not been adjusted for some years.

Oh well - the USO hasn't been adjusted for some years either. 28kb/s is hardly the cutting edge of data transfer technology

Given 1 mile of road that would mean around 40 poles - at 4 poles per day with a 4 man team 40 man days to install the poles. Another 3 or 4 days to wire between poles - normally two men. The last pole I had to have installed took a 5 man team over 3 hours - so 4 per day would be a good rate - take travelling time into account and the 10 days could easily be 12 to 15

Add in the cost of getting planning permission and wayleaves, road closures/lights - another 15 days or more and there is well over 60 if not 70 man days.

Plus cost of poles, machinery &c and £16,000 is not a bad price.

Another option depending on who owns the land is the trench in the ducting yourself, BT supply the duct and depth requirements.

Really only feasible if you own all the land and don't have to cross any highways.

Virgin Media appear to say no to broadband/tv/phone if the cost of getting it into a property is over £300.

Digging a mile of trench to an appropriate standard, install ducting to necessary standard, back fill, reinstate land. Hire of machinery &c &c

Would probably take someone a month with one or two to assist. Is it feasible for 1 mile? probably not.

In reply to a post by MHC:

..... at 4 poles per day with a 4 man team 40 man days to install the poles. Another 3 or 4 days to wire between poles - normally two men....

Things have changed. In a recent pole replacement programme locally, 2 sub contractors with a pole truck were stripping, removing, replacing/repositioning and rewiring the new poles and dropwires at a rate of at least 4 per day.
Whilst their workrate was perhaps excellent, the quality of work was derisory and just about every joint had to be redone by BTo engineers. From chatting to the BTo lads, this seems to be commonplace and the contractors seem to get away with it.

A few years back a poling sub-con was chopping two feet off the bottom of each one to speed up rates - when a couple of BT Techs were injured when climbing an unsafe pole thousands had to be redone.

Look at a pole and there is a horizontal line with an arrow - that is at 5 feet above ground so a tech can look and see that it is appropriately located (hopefully).

I'm well aware of that, particularly since this replacement program. The pole outside my property has to be "re-replaced" as it's only about 18" into the ground and smack on top of my gas service. The ground immediately behind it drops off by about 3' so basically, it's my boundary wall that supports the pole.
It's the highest pole I've ever seen and even in the slightest breeze, it sways like a drunken navvie. As it's so unsafe, BTo used a hired aerial platform to effect repairs to it's connections but it's due for repositioning tomorrow. I suspect that we as customers will foot the bill for this fiasco.

Still, it's an ill wind that blows no good as they say - my sync has increased significantly and my uptime is now measured in at least weeks rather than the couple of days that was previously attainable.

What I can't understand is what has happened to the wiring that supplied the phone the previous owners had.

I can understand it being cut at wherever the line has re-routed to the "new build", but one would think there would be a usable stretch of line from the premises to an accessible point.

It's almost as though that line itself, at the cut point, was a single feed back to somewhere else. Otherwise what was the need to re-use this one.

The particular linked article is typical sensational half-story of course.

Could well be that the new build was built by the previous owners of the property in the article, they had the line moved and (guess work) own the land the line crossed had the old poles etc removed. Hence the cost for the new installation.

What planet are you on, electricty and water do charge for connection as well!!!

Ian

In reply to a post by ian007jen:

What planet are you on, electricty and water do charge for connection as well!!!

Ian

You need to re-read the message you replied to. He's being sarcastic.

perhaps the existing poles are decayed / unfit for use, for example I worked on a farm route which used to feed two houses (both derelict for 15 years), one was done up and I had to install a line. The wiring running along the poles was long past usable where it existed, all the poles were decayed to the point one was actually hollow in places. The fact someone once had a line there doesnt change the fact that for todays H&S standards that run of poles needed completely renewing - which means mr farmer wanted a large wayleave fee before you even get to changing poles. I mean, what do people expect for £125?

OT but I was at a guys house last week in a very rural spot where dsl only works when the planets align correctly, he was getting 1.8meg (over 7km loop) and was complaining about speed. While I tinkered about with the wiring to squeeze an extra few 100k the guy told me the trouble they have all had due to the high oil prices, that the gas companies wouldnt supply a service due to remoteness / cost. Then he moaned that the fibre service BT planned was delayed 3 months.

Excuse me? a gas network for heating / cooking you can do without but your dsl is too slow and your fibre is delayed?! PRIORITIES PEOPLE!!

Don't do irony then?

For anyone interested or just wants to speculate , I believe this is the property in question
I dont think the words rural or remote do it justice!

looking at the google image, look south, there are poles all along the side of the road, (I guess electric supply ) but cant they be shared?

If that is the place, one wonders how it was seved previously. There are no telephone poles nearby. So considerable work would be needed to provide a line.

2.9 miles from the nearest DP (which looks like it may have a dacs on it i.e. no spare lines), 1.1 mile from the nearest pole. Along that route I could not see any carriageway boxes so there may not even be any duct between these poles (could be direct in ground buried cable). Where is the pole that previously fed the building? looks like it has long vanished along with all traces of brackets / wiring form the house.
If I was them I would price up how much to get a fibre get along these new poles, from the looks of it they will be lucky to get above 28k on that line plant.. if you're going to cough up big money may as well future proof yourself...
Or get yourself a satellite / mobile dongle if possible.

they look high voltage (horizonal beam) so I would guess not (they have not been shared further down the road where bt have put their own poles up).

It's a HV line as just south of the property is the transformer on the terminal pole. Not usually used for joint user poles unless the pole is a big one and so the safety distance can be maintained.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

....The particular linked article is typical sensational half-story of course.

I'd say the Scottish redtops are rushing in to fill the void left by The Sport.

I know, let me just go build a house on top of Snowdon and ask for a phone line, I bet they'll quite the same thing!

You'd need to knock the caf� down first though so not quite the same.

Never been to Snowdon so don't know whats at the summit (if anything), but was using it mostly as a metaphor. Basically trying to point out that yes there is a USO, but not to the point where BT are compelled to provide a line to someone practically on Mars.

There's a "cafe" there alright although it looks more like a WW2 artillery bunker. Still when it's foggy enough you can't see it..... Even smilies get lost up there most days.

Edited by Deadbeat (Tue 05-Apr-11 21:39:56)

there's a railway line goes to the top of snowdon

thanks,

interestingly, if you head north from that cottage, theres a phone box! but quite a way away

In reply to a post by ggremlin:

there's a railway line goes to the top of snowdon

I think "railway" is stretching things almost as far as the £53000 charge.

Edited by Deadbeat (Tue 05-Apr-11 21:47:38)

And inside the Eiger to get to the top of the Jungfrau.

In that context, husky pee in the snow is disgusting.

Does it have a fixed phone line?

In reply to a post by krazykizza:

Does it have a fixed phone line?

It has a number of 08444938120..... But I reckon that's a direct line to a Camarthen based yodelling champion. He shouts up and they throm notes wrapped around rocks with the reply. Norse code maybe?
OK.... I'll get my coat.

Mother always warned me about eating the yellow snow.

Thinking about this and given the pretty extreme terrain and weather conditions, the railway would almost certainly need some form of communication along it's entire length so a summit telephone is feasible.
Give 'em a bell and ask.

In reply to a post by Deadbeat:

Thinking about this and given the pretty extreme terrain and weather conditions, the railway would almost certainly need some form of communication along it's entire length so a summit telephone is feasible.
Give 'em a bell and ask.

Groan.

In reply to a post by Deadbeat:

Mother always warned me about eating the yellow snow.

Brings a whole new meaning to the piste.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Deadbeat:

Thinking about this and given the pretty extreme terrain and weather conditions, the railway would almost certainly need some form of communication along it's entire length so a summit telephone is feasible.
Give 'em a bell and ask.

Groan.

If there is a phone up there, imagine analysing the attenuation/SNR figures! The router logs would make War And Peace pale into insignificance. I wonder what an SFI visit would cost????

Who said the property previously had any form of phone line, not every building in the UK has a phone line to it

They Did

In reference to www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2011/04/02/remote-couple-s...:

To make matters worse, the previous owners of the house had a phone but after they left, a new-build down the road took over their line.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Who said the property previously had any form of phone line, not every building in the UK has a phone line to it

It pays to read the article:

"To make matters worse, the previous owners of the house had a phone but after they left, a new-build down the road took over their line"

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/3989271-r...

Sorry

Edited by Andrue (Wed 06-Apr-11 14:12:41)

Fail on my part

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Has anyone read the article...

The £53,000 was for the preferred option of underground ducting.
Price reduced to £16,000 if I recall for telegraph poles.

There is a case for the USO price being subject to inflation, as it has not been adjusted for some years.

I read it and it says 16k for a mile of copper over poles. That to me is extortionate and I can only conclude BT simply dont want to do the work and have as such quoted a unrealistic fee to put them off. I wonder if they could get a leased line for cheaper then that on install although any ongoing fees would obviously be much higher than a phone line. I have known for leased lines a mile or so out to be under 10k installation.

or

01766 890855

I read it and it says 16k for a mile of copper over poles

It says , in effect,that the cost using overhead cabling was 16k, but that cost will incude installation of the poles (last time I looked they were quoting £600 a piece, maybe more now), the cabling , wayleaves (if required), plus any other network costs further along the line.
A leased line is still going to required the similar infrastructure build and (at least) the same costs

In reply to a post by Ribble:

I read it and it says 16k for a mile of copper over poles

It says , in effect,that the cost using overhead cabling was 16k, but that cost will incude installation of the poles (last time I looked they were quoting £600 a piece, maybe more now), the cabling , wayleaves (if required), plus any other network costs further along the line.
A leased line is still going to required the similar infrastructure build and (at least) the same costs

I don't disagree - the cost of a single pole to be installed is £660 and for a mile there could be 30 to 40 required. 30 poles would be £19800 plus the other costs, 40 would be £26400.

So the £16k is probably lower than the actual book cost to BT.

Even working it on costs, as I suggest elsewhere, rather than per pole it still comes to a similar figure.

according to wikipeadia, they use radios for the train communications, they did have telegraphy even when it first opened

but in answer to comms up there, bbc wales has a webcam, (currently foggy ! )
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northwest/sites/webcams/p...

Network Rail has it's own extensive comms network. Copper, fibre and radio are all used. Trains use a form of GSM with a PMR backup.

The cafe cost £9milion to build. I doubt very much it has BT service , very likely has broadband, be that Satellite as anyone could, be that residential or business in Wales. They could obtain a grant of up to £1000 pounds to set up, from the Wesh Assembly Government (WAG) if they happen to live in non broadband area. Not sure if this is still available however uptake was poor and W A G were pushing this again just after the turn of the year. I assume the summit falls into this category as much of the Wales does!

Not that the Snowdon railway has anything to do with Network Rail

DOH
Should read the whole thread..

and why does it cost BT £660 to install a pole? thats another silly figure.

What infrastructure does the existing line go over (the one that was cancelled by last resident), I assume there is either existing ducts or poles for that.

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 08-Apr-11 00:31:25)

There are no telephone poles and given the location and that properties further back down the road are overhead provided there is unlikely to be any duct.
I'd hazard a guess that there never has been a line there.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

and why does it cost BT £660 to install a pole? thats another silly figure.

Have you ever tried to buy a wooden pole thirty feet (or more) long and nearly a foot in diameter?

Look under "Stout"

And presumably they have to get permission to put the poles up. & Pay for installation

Indeed.

And if the photo that Ribble linked to is right, it wouldn't surprise me if there's bedrock not too far down.

Assuming the quoted £660 is a "BT average", I could see them making a loss on that one!

Even getting the poles to where you want them is going to cost a bob or two- you can't just bung them in the back of a Transit

Edited by billford (Fri 08-Apr-11 02:33:45)

Slightly off-topic... I've only just noticed a bit in that advert I linked to:

New telegraph poles are simply tree trunks that are de-barked and mildly planed. Not only is every pole different in dimensions from each other (like each tree) but also they are tapered along the length. So the diameter of a new telegraph pole can vary by several inches, or 50mm from top to bottom. In addition the very end of the pole (the original base of the tree) can broaden out even more. So, if you are looking for absolut regularity and identical poles forget it !

It's nice to see a bit of honesty in an advert

In reply to a post by billford:

And if the photo that Ribble linked to is right, it wouldn't surprise me if there's bedrock not too far down.

Reminds me of my parent's previous house. My Dad wanted a removable fence at the back so he bought some metal fence post 'holders'(*) with a 1 metre spike.

Unfortunately he'd overlooked the fact that behind the house was a large hill. The rear garden was flat but toward the end the soil was only about 20 centimetres deep. Then it became good old Welsh granite.

(*)The holders were metal. The fence was wooden

Edited by Andrue (Fri 08-Apr-11 09:21:47)

In reply to a post by Ribble:

There are no telephone poles and given the location and that properties further back down the road are overhead provided there is unlikely to be any duct.
I'd hazard a guess that there never has been a line there.

But supposedly the previous occupants did have a line according to the article. Maybe that isn't really the property?

Edited by Andrue (Fri 08-Apr-11 09:23:24)

There seem to be existing poles for the powerline, e.g. here is the one from the existing neighbouring home which is a mile or so down the road. The poles end here at the property for which BT quoted the £53000 or £16000 installation fee.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

and why does it cost BT £660 to install a pole? thats another silly figure.

What infrastructure does the existing line go over (the one that was cancelled by last resident), I assume there is either existing ducts or poles for that.

Why? over £300 for a standard pole which Bill has linked to plus costs to do the install, and in that case a road closure will be required - controlled by lights but at red for 2 hours whilst each pole is installed and then again when the cables are installed. having seen the pictures - £660/pole will be well under the actual cost to BT.

Fine, they have 10kV lines not telephony.

There will still need to be poles for the telephony. Those cannot be safely shared.

People possibly think it is like putting in a 6 foot fence post, i.e. small hole, a little cement and bobs your uncle.

In reply to a post by Ribble:

There are no telephone poles and given the location and that properties further back down the road are overhead provided there is unlikely to be any duct.
I'd hazard a guess that there never has been a line there.

according to the article there was one in the past.

In reply to a post by billford:

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

and why does it cost BT £660 to install a pole? thats another silly figure.

Have you ever tried to buy a wooden pole thirty feet (or more) long and nearly a foot in diameter?

Look under "Stout"

the prices I see there for something suitable is a lot lower than £660 and BT on top of that would get a bulk discount of some sort.

But supposedly the previous occupants did have a line according to the article

And I am suggesting that may not be the case
I never take media stories for granted as fact

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

the prices I see there for something suitable is a lot lower than £660 and BT on top of that would get a bulk discount of some sort.

The posts don't install themselves for free, and (perhaps fortunately) it's not up to you to determine what is suitable.

Bulk discount... probably, but it won't be very much.

A 250mm hole, 1.6 to 1.8 m deep, straight and vertical is easy - with a decent auger and can take an hour. Fit the metal work to the top, lift pole and drop into hole - ramming it further down too, fill and gaps and compact.

As you say a nice simple job that anyone could do in a few minutes!

For that location it would be a minimum of medium and possibly stout - dependent on the climate. 10M pole £315 or £420 At least 2 hours per pole - so three per day including travelling. A 4 man team charged at around £240 to £300 each per day so around £320 per pole and immediately it is in the £650 per pole region.

In reply to a post by MHC:

A 250mm hole, 1.6 to 1.8 m deep, straight and vertical is easy

Provided you don't hit granite bedrock 50cm down

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

People possibly think it is like putting in a 6 foot fence post, i.e. small hole, a little cement and bobs your uncle.

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/3991239-r...

Uh huh

In reply to a post by MHC:

Fine, they have 10kV lines not telephony.

There will still need to be poles for the telephony. Those cannot be safely shared.

Although doing so would add a new level of excitement and anticipation when you reach for the handset

In reply to a post by billford:

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

the prices I see there for something suitable is a lot lower than £660 and BT on top of that would get a bulk discount of some sort.

The posts don't install themselves for free, and (perhaps fortunately) it's not up to you to determine what is suitable.

Bulk discount... probably, but it won't be very much.

well its conveniant to assume poles are needed for full distance when its been made clear there was a previous line at the property which means there is existing stuff in place to route copper over. 2 hours per pole O_o.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

well its conveniant to assume poles are needed for full distance when its been made clear there was a previous line at the property which means there is existing stuff in place to route copper over. 2 hours per pole O_o.

Maybe, maybe not... what does that have to do with BT's standard charge for installing a pole?

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

In reply to a post by billford:

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

the prices I see there for something suitable is a lot lower than £660 and BT on top of that would get a bulk discount of some sort.

The posts don't install themselves for free, and (perhaps fortunately) it's not up to you to determine what is suitable.

Bulk discount... probably, but it won't be very much.

well its conveniant to assume poles are needed for full distance when its been made clear there was a previous line at the property which means there is existing stuff in place to route copper over. 2 hours per pole O_o.

Do you have evidence to suggest it will be any quicker?

I had a pole replaced outside my house in London about 12 months back - they arrived at 5:30 AM and left at around 9:00. That is three and a half which included the drop wire installation.

Some friends in Scotland paid for their installation and to install 8 or 9 poles took three days.

I am not doubting thats how long it actually takes but shocked it takes that long.

Have BT quoted how much for the line to just run along the ground alongside the road.

you cant just leave it on the ground.

>>tree trunks that are de-barked and mildly planed

They are untreated, will have to factor in pressure treating them into the costs.

They have a special technique for making bedrock sockets. It is not as deep but is a lot louder.

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

They are untreated, will have to factor in pressure treating them into the costs.

You can chose for your poles to be treated with either ACQ treatment, or creosote treatment.

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

They have a special technique for making bedrock sockets. It is not as deep but is a lot louder.

What do they use, a JCB with one of those spikey things to hammer a hole?

I did wonder about explosives, that would be a lot more fun but...

Nobody has mentioned the streetworks opening noticing yet. I would budget for around £250 per hole.

Edited by deleted (Sat 09-Apr-11 17:45:56)

They have been known to use explosives for making hard rock sockets in Jockland.

Wow... I bet that does wonders for the budget per hole

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

Nobody has mentioned the streetworks opening noticing yet. I would budget for around £250 per hole.

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/3989299-r...

Cost of road closure ... almost the same

Edited by MHC (Sat 09-Apr-11 20:07:24)

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

They have a special technique for making bedrock sockets. It is not as deep but is a lot louder.

I went on a course years ago for wooden electricity pole installations which require more than standard mechanical equipment BOOOM
Never had to do it but it was fun