Preparing for a BT Engineer

Not sure if this is the right section to post this on

Bit of background. I'm with xilo broardband on their cable and wireless package. All has been brilliant post migration from jan feb time till about two weeks ago when I suddenly started syncing at 2mb instead of 5-6. My line stats were near identical to before and nothing had changed in the house or the area. I contacted xilo and they got c and w to test the line and concluded that there was an earthing problem and some battery on the line.
Xilo asked me to contact bt as the fault is theres with the line between me and the exchange. Bt were as useless as ever on the phone and just kept saying my line is ok as the voice is ok, I tried explaining it was the broardband being affected but was still an issuie with their line. But they kept telling me to contact my isp. Xilo managed to get me a BT engineer visit, so I'm posting to ask what I need to do to prepare for his visit, especially to avoid any charges for the call out.

I disconnected the bell wire in the master socket, will I need to reconnect that?
Do I need to do anything specific with my hardware?
Will he go up the pole which is in my neighbours front garden, i.e do I need to contact him ?

Plus any other helpful advise anyone has.


Thanks

If the fault exists when using the test socket then should be immune from call out charges (not should is not a 100% word)

I would contact neighbour before hand as he may want to look at pole.

If Xilo have submitted the right request then the engineer should be broadband aware, so understand the removal of pin 3.

I have recently had a Phone line problem. No telephone but very slow broadband.

A BT enginner came and he was advised that I had removed the bell wire and that the fault still exsisted even when trying the test socket. He did not bat an eyelid. He went straight to the master socket to test. He found a fault on BT`s network.

The internal telephone/dsl wiring is your responsiblity. BT are only interested in making sure your connection is good from their network to your master socket any problems beyond that are yours. If they do find the problem is on yourside and not BT`s you will probably be billed around £100.

Bob C

Nearly forgot, if the problem is on your side of the master socket they will not repair it but you will still be charged for the call out.

Bob C

In reply to a post by Jammy_Dodger:

Xilo asked me to contact bt as the fault is theres with the line between me and the exchange.

That's wrong! They shouldn't do this for a BB fault.. The line to your exchange is the responsibility of BT Openreach (not BT Retail who you would have contacted) who handle the line for all CPs and can only be called out by the CP, not the customer.

My wireing is really old pre 1980 I reckon since my master socket has no test socket and is beige with the t logo on the front. So bearing in mind its this socket I opened a removed the bell wire from, will I get charged for tampering?

There is no point touching the bell wire prior to the engineer visit. The bell wire has always been there and I can't see as the cause of a sudden dramatic drop in sync.

eta: My mistake, I see you mean should you put it back. I've no idea.

Edited by deleted (Thu 21-Jul-11 15:14:55)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by Jammy_Dodger:

Xilo asked me to contact bt as the fault is theres with the line between me and the exchange.

That's wrong! They shouldn't do this for a BB fault.. The line to your exchange is the responsibility of BT Openreach (not BT Retail who you would have contacted) who handle the line for all CPs and can only be called out by the CP, not the customer.

It certainly is wrong, but xilo are not alone in doing this most isp's are taking the pass the buck attitude to faults, just because their useless remote tests or monitoring fail to pick up on anything does not mean that there is no fault on the ADSL part, and even if there is a case of really bad interference causing problems the isp IMO should at least investigate it further by getting bt involved and escalating it within bt , for a REIN engineer ect , not just offer to cap the connection and make it no longer viable to have adsl

I contacted xilo and they got c and w to test the line and concluded that there was an earthing problem and some battery on the line.

Bt were as useless as ever on the phone and just kept saying my line is ok as the voice is ok,

So C and W say theres earth and battery on the line, and yet BT state line tests OK. Someone is lying. BT are not responsible for your broadband, and since this is what you are trying to report as faulty, they were right to refer you back to your ISP.

Let us know the outcome, I would be interested to hear if the engineer that comes is out on an SFI task (BB fault raised by the CP) or just as a PSTN engineer, who will be out on a 'line tests OK' fault. If the later, and no fault found, you may well get a bill.

Don't worry about the bellwire, it's yours to do with what you will. See if the engineer will fit a proper NTE for you.

Sorry but that is not true. C&W refuse to raise faults like this because the issue is seen to be on the copper line, which is not something they provide.

We've seen countless errors (not just with C&W but Opal, BTW and so on), where they state one thing but the telephony provide (usually BT Retail) state there is no issue. Even BT's own systems report to us "report to telephony provider".

You'll be surprised just how many times that BT Retail will state no problems until they get an engineer out to site to magically find the cause of the issue.

Regarding a REIN engineer, you do realise that getting an engineer that does that specific work is extremely difficult and there are certain procedures that BT make us follow such as firstly arranging an SFI who then has to refer it back as a REIN issue, and so on.

Matt

Edited by uno (Thu 21-Jul-11 23:40:06)

It isn't if the issue is with the copper line provided by the VOICE provider, we simply utilise that copper line to put a broadband signal over it.

Matt

That's a strange view of the world for an ISP to have.

Like it or not, the provider of the copper line is Openreach.

Like it or not, Openreach sell the voice capability on that line to the voice provider, and they separately sell the broadband capability to the broadband provider.

In this case Openreach's customer for the broadband capability is C+W and Uno are C+W's customer.

The end user has no cause to contact his/her voice provider (which might not even be BT, but typically will) when there is a broadband problem on the line.

So you're saying that if the user has complete loss of phone line service, which also is loss of broadband too - we can take the fault?

Even if the user could go to the voice provider in this instance, your logic indicates they would not need to.

Simply answer is no. The end user does not pay us for the copper circuit, they pay the voice provider whom are the ones responsible for the "core" service.

Matt

That's called passing the buck!

The copper line is actually provided by BT Openreach who rent it out (WLR, an Openreach product) usually to BT Retail for Voice, who in turn collect the line rental from the subscriber. Nevertheless the line is shared usage between ISP & Voice provider.

When there is a BB Issue, as this is (speed dropped dramatically suddenly), it is responsibility of ISP to commission Openreach to investigate, unless the line cannot maintain a clear voice signal, of which there is no evidence here.

In reply to a post by uno:

So you're saying that if the user has complete loss of phone line service, which also is loss of broadband too - we can take the fault?

Naive! You know he meant a BB fault w/out any Voice fault.

Not naive, an example based on the flawed logic the poster gave.

Matt

"if the user has complete loss of phone line service, which also is loss of broadband too - we can take the fault?"

That is not really what I said, but obviously if you are more willing to take a broadband fault when there is also a voice fault (nothing to do with you) than you appear to be when there is only a broadband fault, feel free to give it a try.

If voice with no broadband kit exhibits fault report to voice provider
If broadband only exhibits issue report to broadband report

Simple

Is that C&W policy then, i.e. if an issue with BB on the copper line they insist it is reported via the voice provider?

Remember if voice is working fine, then a voice provider will generally only test for voice related faults

It's not just C&W who insist on this. BT Wholesale do too, if their automated systems detect an issue, the phrase "report to telephony provider" is output by their systems.

We'll always push a fault through for a human to take a look if required but we follow their own systems with the recommended action, just as anyone would. but with C&W especially, they're a pain in the backside to deal with which is part reason why we're looking at alternatives.

Matt

Strange that as I am experiencing very similar problems and am also with Xilo. Up until Christmas 2010 I was with UKOnline for about 8 or 9 years and had been getting steady 1mb service due to line length. Then UKO (Sky) removed their service but Sky wouldn't let me transfer due to not being able to receive 2mb BB so I eventually went with Xilo. For 2 to 3 months I received 1.5mb service without a fault and then all of a sudden it dropped to .5 mb so I raised a fault and was told it was probably due to my line degrading. Anyway they raised a fault and lo and behold 2 days later we're back up to 1.5mb. 2 days ago I lost sync totally and contacted xilo who said again it's probably due to my line length and the degradation of the line ([censored]) so raised a fault with C&W. BB is currently back but now at .5mb again. My immediate neighbours are still getting 1 to 1.5mb and whilst my BB was offline I paid for a days worth of BT Openzone which connected at 1.5 mb so someone somewhere is having a bit of a laugh.

The issue with your line is length. Currently sitting at over 7400 meters.

We've offered an engineering visit on the previous fault but the service appeared to return of its own accord, but after your most recent report, it has been re-raised again and C&W have this in hand at present and we're due to get an update from them today.

Matt

I am aware that the issue with my line is the length and always has been. What I cannot understand is that for years I had a stable 1mb connection with no problems whatsoever (on LLU). Since changing provider I have had stable connections at 1.5mb (as have my neighbours with similar line lengths) but all of a sudden my speed drops to .5mb. I am not blaming anybody for this but cannot understand why all of a sudden after 8 or 9 years I am now getting speeds of .5mb compared with the 1mb I used to get. In all the time I was with UKO I had no need to call their technical advice at all regarding speed or connection issues. If my current speed was around that I used to receive with UKO then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Additionally, I am convinced that my line length used to be 6200 metres from the exchange so wonder if something has changed without my knowledge. SYDR has recently gone live in parts of the village where I live and this issue has only manifested itself since then.

We can't rule out something happening between both ends of the cable but likewise, just because it has worked at 1Mb for that long does not mean there won't ever be an issue or something new causing interference on the line, for example.

Matt

On UKOnline you were probably on SRA, (Seemless Rate Adaptation), so the sync speed could very well have been rising and falling between those two extremes without you noticing.

No other provider, not even Sky, uses SRA, so if you get a sync speed drop due to noise then a manual re-sync is needed. Perhaps at intervals, but not frequently, until the noise source is turned off.

I assume at some time in the past you have ensured there are no possible noise sources within your control? Extension cabling; bell-wire; filter checks; Sky Box double-filtering and so on?

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 27-Jul-11 12:44:34)

I've checked as much as I possibly can with my limited technical expertise. I don't have a sky box and have eliminated all extensions by plugging the router directly into the main BT socket which is an old type socket without a separate test socket.

Just a thought: if the signal quality is varying, and if that was leading to sync speed changes, and if it is still similarly varying, without SRA it will surely cause a similarly-patterned variation in SNR? Suitably motivated geeks can use appropriate tools to graph SNR vs time (and possibly error counts vs time) and see if there is a pattern?

There's loads of info like this inside every DSL modem/router (it's part of the spec), and the DSL protocol ensures that what the customer end knows about that kind of thing is also notified to the DLSAM in the exchange from time to time. From the DSLAM to the ISP (perhaps via the wholesaler) it is of course generally ignored... self-install DSL all too frequently apparently also means self-diagnosed DSL.

Still, it's only been ten years or so, you can't expect BTw or their LLU equivalents to move that quickly (though apparently Bulldog had some clever facilities for this kind of thing back in their day, whenever that was).

RouterStats, or RouterStats Lite lower down that page, are brilliant for this.

When I was on ADSLx I ran Lite all the time, at a 5-second sampling interval.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Still, it's only been ten years or so, you can't expect BTw or their LLU equivalents to move that quickly (though apparently Bulldog had some clever facilities for this kind of thing back in their day, whenever that was).

C&W (ex-Bulldog) do alter the interleaving at sync time but I have never seen SNR change from what is fixed up at 9db/Interleaved unless you've been placed on a rate profile (starting at 2-4Mb).

Matt

Engineer attended on time and couldn't find a fault either with the line or the house. He changed the faceplate and I now have the 1.5mb that I used to have with better line stats. He also said there wouldn't be a charge but we'll just have to wait and see having read some other posts regarding engineers visits. (I did make hom a cuppa though so might be ok!)

Good news .

Do you mean he fitted a new NTE5 with the detachable faceplate? As that cured the problem it suggests the old master had developed a fault, so there shouldn't be a charge anyway. Let's hope.

Just so you all know, the engineer came out last Thursday he fitted a new filtered nte5 master socket. He discovered the source of the issue was a dead transformer which was transmitting at the same frequency as broadband, he said that its usually sky TV boxes. He found which house it was and posted a note through their door as they were not in. He phoned yesterday to say that sky had been out to the house in question and changed the sky box. I rebooted my router and they sync instantly raised.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

He discovered the source of the issue was a dead transformer which was transmitting at the same frequency as broadband,

Don't think so. If the transformer was dead it would not be emitting anything.

Probably just a simplification of the actual fault that was probably a failure in a switch mode PSU that was generating RF interference as is quite common on sky boxes.

Dead as in working, but being naughty in the extra RF it is throwing out.

Dead on the inside but still live on the outside?

Or should that be the other way round?

Edited by gomezz (Wed 03-Aug-11 10:50:27)

What about when the user has ordered a broadband service and has no interest in a telephone service - and doesn't even have a handset. The broadband stops working. The customer will report a broadband fault. He or she has no idea whether there is a voice service fault because it is completely irrelevant to them and has no way of establishing that anyway.

A £5 handset for testing is cheaper than a BT callout charge.

And is one of the steps the ISP should lead you through.

Or just borrow a neighbours phone for five minutes to test the line.

Sod's Law dictates that your neighbour will just have left for two weeks holiday

Excellent (though as noted, sounds more like a dodgy power supply than a dead one).

And now, for the nice man from uno:

how would following your suggestion (C+W's suggestion?) of contacting the voice provider in order to get a voice engineer out help in cases like this?

And now, for the nice man from uno:

how would following your suggestion (C+W's suggestion?) of contacting the voice provider in order to get a voice engineer out help in cases like this?

Posted on my ticket from UNO
Hi Steven,

Engineer notes:

"NTE replaced due to being obsolete, impulsive noise (REIN) issues resolved."

As such, no charges.

Not sure where the "anonymous" post came from but it wasn't me Anyway BB has been ok since last week now so I'm relatively happy for someone with a 1.5 mb broadband. Can't wait for FTTC though which is supposedly coming in November. BT engineer got my hopes up by telling me it was September on BT Infinity but when he checked his laptop we weren't on the system