Acceptable CRC errors ?

Total time = 1 days 13 hours 56 min 46 sec
SF = 8446515
CRC = 41668
LOS = 3
LOF = 27
ES = 9099

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 18239 kbps 1399 kbps
Line Attenuation 27.0 db 12.8 db
Noise Margin 3.6 db 3.4 db


Thoughts?

Edited by epyon (Wed 14-Sep-11 11:16:47)

Total time = 1 days 13 hours 56 min 46 sec
SF = 8446515
CRC = 41668
LOS = 3
LOF = 27
ES = 9099

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 18239 kbps 1399 kbps
Line Attenuation 27.0 db 12.8 db
Noise Margin 3.6 db 3.4 db

Interleaving vs fast: not stated.

Uptime = 38 hours (ish)
Errored seconds = 2+ hours (ish)

Verdict: excessive.

BUT
do you see any user-visible effects? If not, why worry?

However, you also have 3 "loss of signal" and 27 "loss of framing" events in the same period.

At only 3db margin and 18Mbit down, perhaps without interleaving on too, there's plenty of opportunity to see if interleaving and/or increased margin helps things whilst still maintaining reasonable performance.

BTwholesale? LLU?

BE LLU

Netgear DGN2000 (BCM6338)

Fastpath

thought when gaming sometimes i get spikes/lag while hosting its sort of annoying.

i'll post full stats

# adslctl info --stats
adslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 8000
Channel: FAST, Upstream rate = 1399 Kbps, Downstream rate = 18239 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: ADSL2+
Channel: Fast
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 3.6 3.2
Attn(dB): 27.0 12.8
Pwr(dBm): 18.7 12.4
Max(Kbps): 21671 1391
Rate (Kbps): 18239 1399
G.dmt framing
K: 255(0) 40
R: 0 0
S: 1 1
D: 1 1
ADSL2 framing
MSGc: 61 16
B: 254 39
M: 1 1
T: 2 3
R: 0 0
S: 0.4829 0.9815
L: 4224 326
D: 1 1
Counters
SF: 3583130 3623190
SFErr: 10012 25106
RS: 0 0
RSCorr: 0 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0

HEC: 2135 7222
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 2493751985 3374272527
Data Cells: 33176812 259273759
Drop Cells: 4687
Bit Errors: 0 773214

ES: 9283 17580
SES: 520 0
UAS: 227 2181
AS: 57973

INP: 0.00 0.00
PER: 16.17 16.19
delay: 0.12 0.24
OR: 33.12 10.86

Bitswap: 10968 52

Total time = 1 days 14 hours 48 min 47 sec
SF = 8639378
CRC = 42313
LOS = 3
LOF = 27
ES = 9283
Latest 1 day time = 14 hours 48 min 47 sec
SF = 3296036
CRC = 9339
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 2541
Latest 15 minutes time = 3 min 47 sec
SF = 14072
CRC = 3
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 3
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55609
CRC = 67
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 41
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
SF = 5343342
CRC = 32974
LOS = 3
LOF = 27
ES = 6742
15 minutes interval [-30 min to -15 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55609
CRC = 148
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 52
15 minutes interval [-45 min to -30 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55608
CRC = 367
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 67
15 minutes interval [-60 min to -45 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55671
CRC = 105
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 54
Showtime Drop Reason: 8000
Last Retrain Reason: 8000
#

Edited by epyon (Wed 14-Sep-11 12:04:50)

Possibly a touch high but certainly nothing that would make your connection appear highly degraded. It probably runs perfectly fine during general use i'd imagine?

The Loss of Signal is a concern considering you've had 3 in less than 2 days but that is likely a result of the very low SNR margin. Have you manually set your connection to use a 3dB SNR target?

Its that my f8lure graphs have been reporting packlet but i ran ping -t test overnight and there was 0%

i'm wondering who to believe.

ping -t will report 0% even if there had been massive loss - as it is only single percent resolution you could have almost have 15 minutes of downtime and still report as 0% loss.

Believe you F8Lure or ThinkBroadband monitor graphs.

In reply to a post by marcusjclifford:

ping -t will report 0% even if there had been massive loss - as it is only single percent resolution you could have almost have 15 minutes of downtime and still report as 0% loss.

Believe you F8Lure or Think Broadband monitor graphs.

or use something like this pingplotter

it will reproduce similar graphs, but show where the loss if any is occurring, sometimes for me there is loss or spikes shown on the tbb ping and also on the other f8lure chart that are network related and nothing to do with my actual connection

Consider yourself lucky.

You have just over 41,000 CRC errors. In the same time frame I get over 1million.

CRC errors 1424650
FEC errors 17252
HEC errors 492709

It's not the time frame that matters but the proportion of SFs. OP has CRCs (SFs in Error) as 0.49% of SFs, which is high. Also has 1 ES every 15 secs, which is also very high.

Hmmm i somehow think this router is junk =/

but i've swtiched to a 6db profile and run TBB ping monitor overnight to see whats what and will report back in the morning.

Edited by epyon (Wed 14-Sep-11 18:07:56)

The CRC errors ain't good, but if the ES is Error Seconds, then that is way, way over the top.

Graping with RouterStats or RouterStats Lite needed to see what the SNR is doing

Very steady.

no massive fluctuations usually 0.1-0.3

DGN2000 known to be dodgy in some cases - has a habit of overheating quite badly

For comparison, I'd try another router

In reply to a post by epyon:

BE LLU

Netgear DGN2000 (BCM6338)

Fastpath

thought when gaming sometimes i get spikes/lag while hosting its sort of annoying.

i'll post full stats

# adslctl info --stats
adslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 8000

Channel: FAST, Upstream rate = 1399 Kbps, Downstream rate = 18239 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: ADSL2+
Channel: Fast
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 3.6 3.2
Attn(dB): 27.0 12.8
Pwr(dBm): 18.7 12.4
Max(Kbps): 21671 1391
Rate (Kbps): 18239 1399
G.dmt framing
K: 255(0) 40
R: 0 0
S: 1 1
D: 1 1
ADSL2 framing
MSGc: 61 16
B: 254 39
M: 1 1
T: 2 3
R: 0 0
S: 0.4829 0.9815
L: 4224 326
D: 1 1
Counters
SF: 3583130 3623190
SFErr: 10012 25106
RS: 0 0
RSCorr: 0 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0

HEC: 2135 7222
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 2493751985 3374272527
Data Cells: 33176812 259273759
Drop Cells: 4687
Bit Errors: 0 773214

ES: 9283 17580
SES: 520 0
UAS: 227 2181
AS: 57973

INP: 0.00 0.00
PER: 16.17 16.19
delay: 0.12 0.24
OR: 33.12 10.86

Bitswap: 10968 52

Total time = 1 days 14 hours 48 min 47 sec
SF = 8639378
CRC = 42313
LOS = 3
LOF = 27
ES = 9283
Latest 1 day time = 14 hours 48 min 47 sec
SF = 3296036
CRC = 9339
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 2541
Latest 15 minutes time = 3 min 47 sec
SF = 14072
CRC = 3
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 3
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55609
CRC = 67
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 41
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
SF = 5343342
CRC = 32974
LOS = 3
LOF = 27
ES = 6742
15 minutes interval [-30 min to -15 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55609
CRC = 148
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 52
15 minutes interval [-45 min to -30 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55608
CRC = 367
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 67
15 minutes interval [-60 min to -45 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55671
CRC = 105
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 54
Showtime Drop Reason: 8000
Last Retrain Reason: 8000
#

For comparison purposes

Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 8000
Channel: FAST, Upstream rate = 1832 Kbps, Downstream rate = 16594 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: ADSL2+ AnnexM EU-56
Channel: Fast
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 2.8 2.4
Attn(dB): 34.0 16.9
Pwr(dBm): 18.6 13.1
Max(Kbps): 19638 1832
Rate (Kbps): 16594 1832
G.dmt framing
K: 255(0) 53
R: 0 0
S: 1 1
D: 1 1
ADSL2 framing
MSGc: 55 16
B: 254 52
M: 1 1
T: 2 3
R: 0 0
S: 0.5308 0.9953
L: 3843 426
D: 1 1
Counters
SF: 14698939 14876818
SFErr(CRCErr): 14385 62972
RS: 0 0
RSCorr: 0 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0

HEC: 9429 16788
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 725665034 133336667
Data Cells: 908858828 1595141916
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 211488197

ES: 9563 303264
SES: 39 0
UAS: 51 1
AS(Uptime): 238029

INP: 0.00 0.00
PER: 16.19 16.42
delay: 0.13 0.24
OR: 30.14 10.71

Bitswap: 40355 40128
Total uptime: 238029

Total time = 1 days 18 hours 8 min 19 sec
SF = 14701850
CRC = 14387
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 9563
Latest 1 day time = 18 hours 8 min 19 sec
SF = 4033255
CRC = 3206
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 2163
Latest 15 minutes time = 8 min 19 sec
SF = 30852
CRC = 13
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 13
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55569
CRC = 23
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 20
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
SF = 5336497
CRC = 4989
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 3444
15 minutes interval [-30 min to -15 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55631
CRC = 33
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 30
15 minutes interval [-45 min to -30 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55569
CRC = 42
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 35
15 minutes interval [-60 min to -45 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55569
CRC = 54
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 42
Showtime Drop Reason: 8000
Last Retrain Reason: 8000

My connection isn't noticeably affected most of the time by these errors, the upstream snr flaps around continually(normally between 1-2db of the set 3db)

But the downstream snr tends to take a dip during the daytime but will jump back to the set level again after whatever causes it to plumit by 0.5-1db is switched off again or stops,

sometimes this will cause a loss of sync, even though the snr at the time is at a normal level , this seems to be a cycle of every 2 or 3 weeks what that is about i ain't sure

My ping monitor shows no or very little packet loss but has in the past shown bursts of loss upto 40% but i could not notice any significant impact,

Well mines only slightly warm as its mounted vertical on legs.

But i have seen it get redhot

i think ill leave this 1 night/day and see how things go then switch to

BEbox or DG384G.

Ok so

Netgear - Direct Link
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/3b4f475e7b7...

Switched to BEBOX - http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/45c655784b7...

meh...

At least 3 others on BE seeing packet loss on f8lure graphs from 10pm until about 12am since 11/09/2011

In reply to a post by nredwood:

At least 3 others on BE seeing packet loss on f8lure graphs from 10pm until about 12am since 11/09/2011

me too last night

In reply to a post by epyon:

Total time = 1 days 13 hours 56 min 46 sec
SF = 8446515
CRC = 41668
LOS = 3
LOF = 27
ES = 9099

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 18239 kbps 1399 kbps
Line Attenuation 27.0 db 12.8 db
Noise Margin 3.6 db 3.4 db


Thoughts?

on 3 or so years on adsl I learned to live with high error rates.

I just started only taking notice of "severely errored seconds". As when that counter went up is when I had a noticeable impact on my connection.

Well it looks like my BEBOX is a better router

still touchs of packetloss though i thought i could not get FEC errors since i'm on fast path or am i thinking of something else ?

Uptime: 0 days, 11:57:04

DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A

Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,278 / 16,773

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,304 / 16,296

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 13.0 / 25.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 6.0 / 6.5

Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): 0

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 8 / 0

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 8 / 353

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 91 / 247

Edited by epyon (Thu 15-Sep-11 10:37:35)

In reply to a post by epyon:

Well it looks like my BEBOX is a better router

still touchs of packetloss though i thought i could not get FEC errors since i'm on fast path or am i thinking of something else ?

Uptime: 0 days, 11:57:04

DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A

Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,278 / 16,773

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,304 / 16,296

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 13.0 / 25.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 6.0 / 6.5

Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): 0

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 8 / 0

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 8 / 353

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 91 / 247

Does streaming live tv stop or reduce this packetloss, ? infact does this packetloss that you can see affect streaming tv at all?
Have you used pingplotter to trace where this loss lies, is it present on every target, or all hops to that target ?
As said already just because tbbqm shows some packetloss, that seems to replicate it's self on several of them yesterday, another be customer tbbqm so how can that be down to your connection, the routing maybe,but not your connection,

Well i only noticed it in games while hosting

but i think i'm fine at my end

theres 100% packet loss at routing stage but i've asked and its normal

so i'm not sure whats going on.

Upstream errors on Speedtouch routers are misreported so ignore the FEC errors for the upstream

In reply to a post by epyon:

Well i only noticed it in games while hosting

but i think i'm fine at my end

theres 100% packet loss at routing stage but i've asked and its normal

so i'm not sure whats going on.

is there any packet loss between your router and the isp's equipment to which you are connected, usually the 1st hop after your router, be i believe call this a gateway i think , so maybe pinging that with a 1500 byte packet or upto the size of the MTU you have set ,

According to BE everythings fine hmmm.

"i thought i could not get FEC errors since i'm on fast path "

Other way round, iirc. Interleaving swizzles the data in such a way that errors which would previously have been uncorrectable (one big block of errors) becomes a lot of small errors, each of which is correctable. Grossly oversimplified, obviously. Magic, it is.

Others are suggesting that the packet loss shown on your pings may be occurring within the Be network. Whilst this is perfectly true, the DSL statistics show the Netgear has a problem with the quality of the link between you and the exchange.

The statistics you posted just now seem to show that you're now working with a ~6db noise margin, vs ~3dB with the Netgear, though in return for that you've also lost a (tiny) bit of sync speed. The 6dB vs 3dB might help explain why this looks better than the Netgear did. Or it might just be better kit.

I believe he was referring FEC errors (RSCorr on some routers I think), which you do not get on fastpath

You do however tend to get an increase in HEC and particularly CRC errors without interleaving (unless you have a very noise free line)

Yeah i switched it from 3-6 but i'm just keeping that tlll i can find a better router

my DG384GT was better at holding the line that the 2000

better save my pennies for a billion 7800n or something

Edited by epyon (Thu 15-Sep-11 22:29:29)

In reply to a post by epyon:

Yeah i switched it from 3-6 but i'm just keeping that tlll i can find a better router

my DG384GT was better at holding the line that the 2000

better save my pennies for a billion 7800n or something

there's nothing wrong with the netgear DG834 v4 flashed with DG Team F/W
If the GT Is using the 3 party f/w, maybe a cheaper option(assuming it has a broadcom chipset) or you could always use the bebox as a modem only and your netgear as the router? beats spending over £100 on a router that may do little to improve things