Orange - Be warned!

Will try and keep this short.

I have 3 orange contract phones in the family so decided to take advantage of the discounts offered by Orange broadband.

Placed order 19th Feb
Cancelled order 21st Feb after discussion with CS about line speed.
28th Feb my broadband stops working...invalid username/password
Contact ISP who get back to me on the 6th (bit rubbish) to tell me the line has been migrated away from the LLU service to BT wholesale.

Phone orange...."you did cancel the order?" response "Ah, looks like it still went though."

Grr...ok give me a MAC code...done.

MAC code back to "old" ISP - activation date 16th March.

No broadband connection for a total of 18 days because Orange did not do their job.

Contact orange and explained to numerous people (all around the world) the problem and proposed 3 possible solutions

1) Turn on my orange account so I can get broadband for the next 10 days OR
2) Give me 500mb broadband on one of my mobile accounts OR
3) pay for 10 days of BTFON access (£30) <-- I think Orange are part of this scheme anyway so it would cost them nothing

Response.
1) No can do - cessation order on the line to switch to LLU
2) Nope, cant do that.
3) Nope

They admit they made a mistake in not cancelling the migration properly but basically all they can do is say sorry.

Have put the details in a letter to customer service as all emails just bounce back with "Whoops, due to issues beyond our control we are currently unable to handle your email query"

*sigh*

Lesson learnt the hard way - I wont be jumping ship again to save a few quid.

Edited by deleted (Tue 06-Mar-12 12:59:10)

At the very least complain to ofcom. I think you can do so online.

Terrible!

You should be entitled to compensation from Orange.

Follow their formal complaints code of practice and failing that their ADR body.

In reply to a post by john2007:

At the very least complain to ofcom. I think you can do so online.

I have started the ball rolling with a letter to customer services.

Orange are a member of the Communications and Internet Services Adjudication Scheme so I will also contact them.

Well they screwed up another migration, which should have been very simple, here:

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/unhappiness/t/40978...

by performing a PSTN cease and re-provide on the OPs line without notice, leaving the OP with a cease charge from his losing ISP (Vivaciti). Incompetence, at its best.

The lesson keeps appearing in these forums, transfers between BTw-based and LLU services are a very murky world, poorly regulated. The problem is quite simply that two unco-ordinated bodies have to work in synch, your LLU provider, and BTw with whom Orange are in contract. When LLU is not involved it is a single BTO control of the whole process. Lesson: the very least you should have done was to inform both Orange and the existing LLU provider of the cancellation, and whilst your LLU provider would probably have said they could do nothing, it's a good test of their customer service. Lesson 2: when a cancellation or any other alteration of a BT service is involved there is an OpenReach order number issued, insist you have this which demonstrates the order has been acknowledged, there should also be subsequent confirmations when it has been committed and fulfilled. The order number is issued when it is put through to BT on Orange's systems, and is the same process for new orders, cancellation of either an existing order or service or any alteration to the service, which I know from experience can be done whilst you are on the telephone.

Orange take a hard commercial line. References to conciliation have a 8 week wait. Better I always found is the ISPA reference (see their website) which Orange have to respond to in 5 days, providing you do not get a response from their Complaints procedure. I've had a temporary increase in a dongle allowance to compensate for the absence of broadband as a gesture of goodwill, but I was a Home Broadband customer at the time. It's tough, but you've got no service and you're not paying for a service either (subject to any contractual notice period you have to pay for anyway). Lesson 3 is just how weak your "entitlement" to a home broadband service is.

You have checked for and cancelled any Orange DD haven't you?

The case linked to in mixt's did not involve LLU. It was a WLR line and Entanet broadband. Orange taking things into their own hands by ordering a PSTN cease when there was an incidental problem obtaining a valid MAC for the broadband element.

They seem to play dirty. Whether deliberately or through simple idiocy is another question. Your comment "Orange take a hard commercial line" is in keeping with the former.

Noted, but I think the advice to follow through on the Openreach order number/status, especially when you're trying to "undo" something, is good. I use IDNet who immediately mail through all the notifications they receive from OpenReach on any order status: excellent.

From what I can gather the Orange systems are much more basic, and I've not read of anyone receiving all the OR notifications either from any other ISP. So I assume you have to chase.

Perhaps I'm just a pessimist, but however good the system, things go wrong, often at the human interface. Checking (and with the gaining/losing ISP) does no harm if it's important to you.

Orange served me well for over 4 years when I was with them for broadband (14 years and running for mobile), it was just the physical condiiton of my ADSL line was poor. I have never said they play dirty, but like any large commercial organisation they have their rules and stick by them. Perhaps the comparison is if IDNet are fairly transparent (in that you can find out what is gong on) then Orange are rather more opaque, and it's sensible to watch things a bit more carefully.

Edited by deleted (Wed 07-Mar-12 13:40:18)

In reply to a post by smurf46:

Perhaps I'm just a pessimist, but however good the system, things go wrong, often at the human interface. Checking (and with the gaining/losing ISP) does no harm if it's important to you.

I take the point on board and will in future ensure I am kept much more in the loop.

From my experience, if I had tried digging any deeper for order numbers etc I would have been told the account has been closed and the order cancelled.

Explaining and getting past the guys in India(?) is hard enough never mind trying to find someone who is not reading from a script or who actually knows how the process works.

I finally spoke to a guy in the UK but he had no idea what LLU was or that it was not all run by BT.

The bottom line is they said they had cancelled the order and they didn't.

Sure I could have done things differently but should I be expected to?

Yes! Be warned! Don�t order broadband then 3 days later cancel the order, as you will only cause great problems, hassle and unnecessary cost for yourself.

I don�t see how the sales person on the phone can tell you what your broadband line speed will be, or are you in a non-Orange broadband network area? This will make a difference, as you will get upto 8Mbps speed not upto 20Mbps speed.

Orange have a ten-day broadband provisioning time period and must get a move on to get your connection changed over and you three days into this period cancel the order.

There isn't an "Orange broadband network" any more .

There is! It may not be a physical network but it is a conceptual one.

In reference to shop.orange.co.uk/broadband/:

Prices quoted are for customers on Orange pay monthly and pay as you go mobile plans living in an Orange Broadband network area, which covers 85% of all UK homes. For non-Orange customers, an additional £5 a month will be charged. Orange customers living in non-Orange Broadband network areas will be charged an additional £10 a month. Non-Orange customers living in a non-Orange Broadband network area will be charged an additional £15 a month. Ten-day provisioning relates to our Broadband service only. Home Phone service provisioning can take up to 20 days.

Orange charge more in exchanges where they previously had no LLU presence. Not sure how they handle those where BT has 21CN presence.

Maybe nobody has told the minions that they don't have LLU any more.

They aren't still offering the LLU prices to new customers in ex-LLU exchanges are they?

The old LLU overlay probably covers market 2 and market 3, hence cheaper in those areas.

That makes sense as the modern equivalent of Orange's historic LLU glory days.

True.

In reply to a post by E7er:

Yes! Be warned! Don�t order broadband then 3 days later cancel the order, as you will only cause great problems, hassle and unnecessary cost for yourself.

When I spoke to Orange they said I would be on an up to 20meg service. When my account login came though it was showing an 8meg service with an estimated speed of 5.5mb. I was on an LLU service getting 10meg so I cancelled. The exchange is tavistock if you want to have a look.

In reply to a post by E7er:

I don�t see how the sales person on the phone can tell you what your broadband line speed will be, or are you in a non-Orange broadband network area? This will make a difference, as you will get upto 8Mbps speed not upto 20Mbps speed.

It was an estimated speed, I guess he was looking at the BT speed checker?

In reply to a post by E7er:

Orange have a ten-day broadband provisioning time period and must get a move on to get your connection changed over and you three days into this period cancel the order.

I agree everyone can make a mistake but to suggest its my fault because Orange did not follow the correct procedure to cancel the order is madness.

Its not like I wanted to cancel the order 9 days in to the process.

I placed the order on Sunday night and cancelled in Tuesday morning...maybe that is 3 days, I dont know how automated the system is.

That said you make it sound like its hard.

They closed the account and cancelled the order in their own systems and that was it.

When they placed the order with BT would they not have been given an order/reference number?

Could they not simply place a cancel action against this order?

Why should it cause (given it was done with plenty of time to spare) "great problems, hassle" ?

However, all of this is missing the main point.

Every company makes mistakes. Its how those mistakes are handled that is one of the factors that differentiates the good from the bad.

Orange accept they made a mistake, apologised for the mistake and basically told me to have a coke and a smile........

Mine was the opposite situation but about 18m ago:
1. I was thinking of moving from Orange with a MAC which I gave to the gaining (LLU) provider.
2. I tried to cancel the move with the gaining provider before the change date, but was concerned as I had no acknowledgement of the cancellation, and it was not showing on their web UI.
3. I spoke to Orange (my "losing" ISP) and was transferred to their provisioning team. "Never mind, they told me, we can cancel the order with OpenReach for you . . . [they did so] and here is the cancellation number . . ." [all in a single phone call].
I'm not sure about Home Broadband, but when I last needed to contact Orange CS on a mobile broadband service change last Christmas, I was given the reps extension number, without prompting, and a reference number, so I could "get back to him in case of any problem". It seemed a potential improvement.
I've usually found that calling during weekday business hours gets you through to the UK rather than India, with free calling via the mobile help number if you have an Orange mobile.

Edited by deleted (Fri 09-Mar-12 11:17:03)

Some months ago , I too had a dispute with Orange which seemed impossible to resolve by phone whoever I managed to speak to. However a letter of complaint to Customer Services led some weeks later, to a call back from a dedicated written complaints section (I think in Bristol) by a very helpful english speaker who sorted the problem immediately including compensating me for all my time and trouble.

The moral here seems to be to always put your complaints in writing and never to waste time complaining by phone.

I posted a letter to Orange Customer Services on Tuesday 6th March.

Today Friday 9th March they called me - I have to say I am impressed with the speed at which they handled my complaint by post.

The representative fully understood the problem and was very apologetic.

She was happy for me to either buy a 1 month/1gig dongle and she would refund me the cost or she would authorise a good will payment of £30 for my inconvenience.

While the dongle solution is a little late to really benefit me and the £30 does not really cover the hassle I do appreciate the gesture.

Onward and forward