New build home with External NTE - best advice?

A home I'm moving into soon is a new build, and noticed all phone sockets looked the same - http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12843960/socket.jpg so I checked outside and found the phone line is being fed by an external NTE box at the left side of the house.

The socket closest to this external NTE would be the living room, and one socket at the opposite end of the house on the right, the study. There are 3 more sockets upstairs on the left side of the house, 1 in the master bedroom, and 2 in the smaller bedroom (no idea why there's 2 in there) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12843960/snapshot.jpg

I'm looking to put in an optimal setup before I start ADSL training.

1. Do all 5 phone sockets need an ADSL filter, even if a particular socket is not being used? (read too much conflicting advice on this)

2. Is the best location for the router in the living room, which has the external NTE box on the opposite side of the wall? Or can I place it at any telephone socket?

Anything else I should know?

Thanks!

In reply to a post by Aaron_01:

1. Do all 5 phone sockets need an ADSL filter, even if a particular socket is not being used? (read too much conflicting advice on this)

If a socket has nothing connected to it then it doesn't need a filter.

2. Is the best location for the router in the living room, which has the external NTE box on the opposite side of the wall? Or can I place it at any telephone socket?

In principle you can put it on any socket, but the best one to use is the master, this reduces the effect of the extension wiring which can pick up interference. It's probably the one nearest to the NTE.

Others will doubtless be along with anything else you might want to know

Edited by billford (Mon 23-Apr-12 18:18:15)

In reply to a post by Aaron_01:

A home I'm moving into soon is a new build, and noticed all phone sockets looked the same - http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12843960/socket.jpg so I checked outside and found the phone line is being fed by an external NTE box at the left side of the house.

The socket closest to this external NTE would be the living room, and one socket at the opposite end of the house on the right, the study. There are 3 more sockets upstairs on the left side of the house, 1 in the master bedroom, and 2 in the smaller bedroom (no idea why there's 2 in there) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12843960/snapshot.jpg

I'm looking to put in an optimal setup before I start ADSL training.

1. Do all 5 phone sockets need an ADSL filter, even if a particular socket is not being used? (read too much conflicting advice on this)

2. Is the best location for the router in the living room, which has the external NTE box on the opposite side of the wall? Or can I place it at any telephone socket?

Anything else I should know?

Thanks!

http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,4124.0.html

#13 onwards

All depends on how the builder wired it all up. If it was me I would recommend opening each socket and checking the wiring, then figuring out whether you want to disconnect some of the unused sockets, or at least the bell wires. Also check that the builders using a twisted pair, and did not split pins 2 and 5 across two different pairs, or used bell wire with no twists.

But first socket closest to the external one would be best. You are free to replace any of the sockets in the house, as the Openreach responsibility ends on the grey box outside.

If the phone wiring is very bad, then if a new place do take photos, and report to the builder under the guarantee

A useful link that .

One question. How would one attach the ring wire, if desired? To the faceplate of the user's gutted NTE5A I expect?

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 23-Apr-12 18:51:55)

I thought about mentioning the bell wire, but thought modern installations didn't have them- am I mistaken?

but thought modern installations didn't have them- am I mistaken?

Depends which sparks fitted them.

In other words- maybe

Cheers, I'll remember that.

It wasn't just ISP's who moaned about them. In fact they *appear* to have been withdrawn now. The largest new build estate round here, Kennet Island, had them fitted on stage one houses, the first of the second stage are now being moved in to, and they are back to a connecter bend No.4 and a 'true' NTE5.

A factor in the withdrawal would surely be that they are not compliant with FTTC install, you have to bypass them, kind of negates the whole idea.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

...In fact they *appear* to have been withdrawn now...

The latest revision of SIN 470 (April 2012) confirms that the External NTE has indeed been withdrawn...

Thanks for all the answers.

There's not much I know at this point, I will have to unscrew all the sockets once I move in to get a better idea of how it's set up. Planning to use a filtered faceplate too, probably the ADSLNation XTF-68.

House has an alarm too, I'm unsure if that dials out. a filtered faceplate would help in that case wouldn't it?

In order to get the maximum performance from DSL it is always best to minimise the amount of cabling that the DSL signal must travel along.

Generally I would advise when there is an external NTE to essentially ignore it, if you can fit your own NTE-5 as the first socket in the house and fit a filtered faceplate to it. Then you can run whatever combination of filtered or unfiltered extensions from that point. Make sure any unfiltered extensions are run using twisted pair cable where as the filtered ones the type of cable is not important. Having an NTE-5 as your first socket just makes life easier should you need to troubleshoot the line as you can easily remove the faceplate and plug a phone in to the test socket in the back of the box.

If your alarm has a dialler it will need to be filtered, it can easily be connected to the filtered terminals on a faceplate.

His idea is to ensure that the the test socket within the customer fitted NTE-5 operates in the same fashion as a test socket would in a normal Openreach fitted NTE-5.

How you fit the ring line from the external NTE depends on NTE-5 that is purchased.

I've done it on one which had 3 position IDC (in other words A and B and a third unused)
by removing all the components and soldering a link from the circuit to the unused IDC ( so it is now A, 3, B connecting to 5,3,2 at the external unit)

I'm not sure, an NTE-5 socket looks bigger than the currently installed sockets at the new house? I don't want to drill new holes to support the bigger NTE-5 socket.

And there's not much I can do regarding twisted pair extension cables, it's all behind the walls and I'm not prepared to rip out walls to check

edit: I don't care much for extensions if they degrade adsl synch in any way, happy to have them disconnected.

Edited by Aaron_01 (Mon 23-Apr-12 21:29:47)

In reply to a post by Going_Digital:

If your alarm has a dialler it will need to be filtered, it can easily be connected to the filtered terminals on a faceplate.

Errr?

I believe it should already be filtered inside its control unit.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

It wasn't just ISP's who moaned about them. In fact they *appear* to have been withdrawn now. The largest new build estate round here, Kennet Island, had them fitted on stage one houses, the first of the second stage are now being moved in to, and they are back to a connecter bend No.4 and a 'true' NTE5.

A factor in the withdrawal would surely be that they are not compliant with FTTC install, you have to bypass them, kind of negates the whole idea.

yes if you like, by-passing the external unit and fitting a standard NTE5 is the same thing as what Tim is on about in that you do not end up with two masters on the line.
trouble is that you dont know just what you are crimping into the network, or where the first socket is (you would think it would be the one nearest the external unit, but it might not be, or the whole thing might be star wired from some unseen box somewhere)

I'd be surprised if it does dial out, as that is an ongoing charged service by alam companies, and you would be aware of the contract.

As Andrew suggested earlier, I woudl certainly examine the wiring at each socket, in any case. Checking for split pairs, swapped over wires, and even unsuitable cables. There can be a huge detrimental effect on speeds.

I don't think GoingDigital was suggesting bypassing the external NTE. Just adding a standard ungutted NTE5.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I don't think GoingDigital was suggesting bypassing the external NTE. Just adding a standard ungutted NTE5.

No I know GoingDigital was not and there in lies the problem in that you end up with a double mastered line, which may have little effect on broadband or telephony but can lead to false test results from the exchange.
The Openreach approach when doing FTTC install and an external NTE is fitted is to connect the network pair directly to the customer wiring and fit a NTE5 as the first socket on the internal wiring, so by-passing the master components in the external unit.

Doing this shifts the demarcation point to the first socket, but if you use the already installed wiring you have no idea how its connected, it may go all over the place, and be looped through an alarm panel befor it arrives at the first socket nearest the external unit.

There is not anything wrong with the external unit that prevents its use with VSDL, the problem is that a NTE5 is required inside for the VSDL faceplate, so for Openreach the easiest way around the problem of two masters is to by-pass the external unit.

Edited by deleted (Tue 24-Apr-12 03:19:28)

If they have NOT used twisted pair cables the work is sub standard and does not meet the guideliness the builders are given to work by.

At which point I personally would be asking for compensation and them to pay an indepdendent electrician to test the mains wiring too, As a good electrician should be easily able to understand LV phone wiring, suggesting sub standard work may have been done elsewhere.

Most alarm systems are basic, no filter built-in. In fact you would be surprised by the number of shoddy installs where an alarm has been wired into the back of an NTE-5 without any filtering.

Sadly it is all to common for an electrician to do the installation of telephone wiring without any understanding of the need for twisted pair cable. They just go to their usual electrical wholesaler and buy a drum of 'telephone cable' and thats it. Electricians are trained in things like how to calculate the correct electrical cable for the load and types of earthing arrangements and so to most electricians connecting a low voltage telephone line is nothing more than making electrical connections. The very idea that they have to consider interference is just not something they have had to think about.

So while I agree that if the builders have not used twisted pair telephone cable it would be something to take up with them for not doing the job properly I would't assume that means that the mains wiring would be sub standard as unlike telephone wiring mains wiring is governed by a set of safety standards that all electricians are required to meet.

Given the answer for many will be paying Openreach to sort out wiring, the guidelines are clear

http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/network/develop...

Wonder how many know about the plastic divider if in same trunking as mains. I would expect a developer to check this sort of thing to avoid comeback under guarantee at a later date.

The rise of ethernet wiring also means that the good electricians will be cross training too, so should understand the differences and importance.

Most electricians should know about the separation of mains and low voltage cables as it is part of the ieee regulations.

Going_Digital

I know this is a long shot mate, but could you checkup on sales at adslnation.com

Order #54925

I placed an order for a xte-2005 and rj11 cable early yesterday and its stuck in pending at the moment, the phone number just gives a busy tone and no response from email...

I was expecting fairly quick processing and dispatch but can't get hold of anyone at the moment

Edited by deleted (Tue 24-Apr-12 15:17:47)

Would this image be correct in providing the best possible broadband to the house?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12843960/External%20NTE.jpg

1. That picture of the External NTE didn't have a ring wire attached in 3, I assume it's fine to _not_ connect it to my new NTE5 socket if I do see a ring wire attached to 3 (at the XNTE) when I move in?

2. I couldn't find any components that I'm told is recommended to remove (bell capacitor, resistor, surge supressor) in all the NTE5 images I've looked for in Google, is it hidden under a layer in that image of the socket?

3. Is it possible to push through a new CW1308 wire into that black rubber ring to the premises, to save me needing to drill a hole?

Thanks again

In reply to a post by Aaron_01:

Would this image be correct in providing the best possible broadband to the house?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12843960/External%20NTE.jpg

1. That picture of the External NTE didn't have a ring wire attached in 3, I assume it's fine to _not_ connect it to my new NTE5 socket if I do see a ring wire attached to 3 (at the XNTE) when I move in?

2. I couldn't find any components that I'm told is recommended to remove (bell capacitor, resistor, surge supressor) in all the NTE5 images I've looked for in Google, is it hidden under a layer in that image of the socket?

3. Is it possible to push through a new CW1308 wire into that black rubber ring to the premises, to save me needing to drill a hole?

Thanks again

Yes the basic idea is to connect 2 and 5 to B and A on the new NTE5 you fit inside, How your cables run I cannot say, but you may be in luck and it goes straight through the wall to the inside socket and you can pull through a a new cable leaving you lots on the inside to connect to the filter face plate voice extension terminals.

If you PM me I send you a NTE-5 with the componets removed and a link fitted so you can run the ring wire from the external unit if you wish., this is optional as if any of your phones need a ring line the filter faceplate will provide it.

Edited by deleted (Wed 25-Apr-12 21:42:07)

Is the external NTE5 a picture from your house? Because the wiring looks like CW1308 and the pair is used correctly

In short no need for new cable you can use the white one that is there.

It looks like the one on the Kitz site, but as you say he may be in luck and have enough slack

If you are going to use a filtered faceplate on an NTE5, DO NOT connect a ring wire to terminal 3 in the external NTE.

Thanks for all your replies, and yes the images are from Kitz and other sources, I've not moved in yet! However I'm optimistic in knowing what to do now before I have my ADSL connected.

I definitely have no need for the ring wire, only ancient phones needed that right? I remember the ring wire causing havoc with ADSL Max synching when I had it in this property several years ago.

jolly good, if you want a NTE5 without the components let me know, but if you want to do it yourself you need to spring out the back plastic cover and the circuit board drops out

Just moved in yesterday so got photos up, can't believe the monstrosity I'm seeing with double cabling being used, very very confused.

To reiterate, there are 5 chrome sockets in the house, living room socket is closest to the External NTE (2,3,5 are wired at the grey box) as it's on the opposite side of the wall.

Here is Bedroom 4's two sockets (wiring done the same way also, in Bedroom 1):
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12843960/bedroom_4_double_s...
As you can see both cables are connected to 2, 3, 5

Living Room (closest to External NTE)
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12843960/living_room.jpg
Double cabling again. This time, why is it wired to 1, 2, 5? Is 1 a mistake, as it's unused?

Study
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12843960/study.jpg
2, 3, 5. Only socket to have 1 cable coming through. What makes this socket unique for only having one cable?

Phone and ADSL was supposed to be activated this morning and got a completion email from IDNet, but we had neither services. Logged a complaint and they did a line test and they found a fault already, so can't test these sockets for a while longer now.

Is the wiring a mess? Where should I place my router and install an NTE master socket (components removed) to?

It is not as bad as it seems ...

the double cables are feed in and feed out ... So,From NTE to LivSkt, LivOut, then In B4Skt1, then Out B4Skt1 to InB4Skt2, Out B4Skt2, to StudyIn but nothing out from the study.

Yes it should be 2,3,5 throughout are arguments for removing the bell wire on 3 but leave it in place at present.

Good to see that 2 & 5 use a twisted pair.

Check that one of the cable in the Living room is from the external NTE and then convert that to the Master/filter with router close by. You could, if you want, use the cat5e to actually have the phone/ADSL split in the lounge and then extend the ADSL to your study. Just use and unused pair and a second pace plate in the study.

I'll leave it for now, and see what router stats are like. But is removing the bell wire at the external NTE enough or do I need to do that on all sockets?

I definitely don't know how to test if living room is directly connected to the external NTE, I could try one of the two cables with my white NTE5 box, but then there's the possibility said cable could be re-routed from upstairs if ExNTE cabling started there and I wouldn't know. Frustrating... looks like I may need to do a fair amount of unscrewing wiring in the bedrooms/study to find out.

Any ideas on why wiring was done to number 1 in the living room socket? Thought it was odd, it does look like the ring wire, purposely disabled so it affects all the other sockets?

Edited by Aaron_01 (Thu 31-May-12 23:31:42)

Could be a mistake wiring to T1 - or it was an attempt to remove the bell/ring wire. !

Best way to check if the Living room is connected to the ExtNTE ... remove all wires from rear and ten reconnect one set. Plug in phone ... if it works, fine, if not, swap over and try again.

Thanks for your help, really appreciate it

Could you rephase rear and ten? Didn't understand that

Remove all of the wires from the back of the Living Room faceplate. Then, reconnect the three wires from one cable to terminals 2,3,5 using the same White/Blue to 5, Blue/White to 2 and Orange/White to 3.

Ah yes, thanks!