Something is seriously wrong here...

No real point to this post but some food for thought...

My neighbour called round a few days ago to ask if I could look at his internet connection. It had been out for several days following talktalk moving him to their LLU service at the local exchange. He had complained to support many times and got nowhere but they said there was a connection fault on the line and they were looking into getting it repaired (?). After hearing about 10 seconds of him talking I know he doesn't know what's going on and/or support are fobbing him off so I just connect to his router while he is at the door with my laptop (I set it all up so know the wifi/router password, and signal gets to my house).

Quickly see that the router was connected to the exchange fine but just not authenticating properly (I assumed that, the router model didn't specifically give an auth error, I just guessed they may have just gone and changed the details from the old @tiscali he was using). I went round and phoned up Talktalk on his behalf and got through to India quite quickly. I was asked to reboot the router and try a different computer (I said I already had), and then I suggested they go through the login details with me.

At this point, it seems they had changed the logon details without telling him, hence the cause of the issue. New details put in and problem solved within 10 minutes of me looking at it after days of my neighbour trying to sort it with support.

Then another neighbour mentioned to me he had no internet connection the day after. By this point he had been without a connection for an entire week, numerous support calls and even a BT engineer round who replaced all the house wiring and master box and was investigating further as the line was still faulty.

I told him to phone up TalkTalk and check login details. Issue fixed in minutes.

This is two people with a TalkTalk connection who live only 3 doors apart! You'd think I was making this up!

Failings on the part of almost everyone involved. TalkTalk support clearly not troubleshooting properly (but to be fair the person I spoke to was very good), ignorant customers (ultimately the customer has some duty themself to help fix or diagnose the fault - they aren't paying for a managed service), talktalk planning (not emailing customers change of details), and finally a BT engineer for taking a sledgehammer approach to trying to fix something, and then fobbing the customer off with a line fault issue, when the issue is a simple username/pass issue.

Really very worrying how often this may be going on.

Edited by Pipexer (Fri 03-Aug-12 21:03:07)

You had me at 'talktalk support is [censored]'

In some respects though if I had been the customer, I would have been praising TalkTalk Support, because when I phoned on behalf, admittedly I got the stupid "try restarting the router" question, but when I just told them to give me the new login details she did so without messing about and they also picked up within 5 minutes. The whole call lasted less than 10 minutes. They quality was also very good and the lady spoke good English. I have waited longer than 10 minutes with premium ISPs.

But when dealing with "unknowledgeable" customers (shall we say), they obviously didn't get it right, they messed around the first guy and provided the 2nd guy with a new router, new master socket, and complete BT line inspection, all for nothing. I do not know what they asked the customer to do, perhaps they asked him to check these details but he just said something really stupid so they thought they'd get rid of him on the line and escalate or say they'll get someone to phone back.

I attribute more blame to the customer for not knowing how to get to 192.168.1.1, or simply giving up without trying at all, router manufacturers for sending out stupid configuration CDs which end up causing more confusion (it would be simpler to just give them a step by step guide to get to 192.168.1.1 rather than a CD), and finally the BT engineer who clearly knew nothing beyond physical line issues (that's fine in itself, but not to make up some nonsense about it being a physical fault and requires more investigation (i.e., probably palm off the issue on his superior or someone else in the organization)).

Multiple failings here, talktalk is not the only guilty party - admittedly they caused the problem initially, and I'm not excusing that.

Edited by Pipexer (Fri 03-Aug-12 21:33:44)

and finally the BT engineer who clearly knew nothing beyond physical line issues

Would be nice to know what information TT had provided Openreach with ? Did they just raise a line fault ? If it was an LLU SFI, I seriously doubt there was any useful info provided, and it sounds like the punter wasn't able to add anything. So what do you do, make the line as good as possible. Bear in mind, there is no default TT login to try, and co-op calls, are more often than not, unanswered or chocolate tea-pot time.

I believe the issue just highlights pisspoor TT support.

A brief discussion with the punter should have identified the problem.
'It stopped working but I still have sync'.
'Hmm, same day we changed how your broadband is provided.'
Here's how to access the router, could you try these log in details'
Sorted.

But with respect you can't ignore the issue of the BT engineer who came round and did all these works and then said there were other issues when it was an auth problem all along. This just causes even more problems! Unless there was some other hidden issue with the line but I am not aware of this and the connection was fine, physically, before and after.

I don't know more specifics than that because the BT engineer had been out after I "took charge" of the situation.

You have to bear in mind that the punter probably doesn't know what the hell sync is and just said "its all stopped working", even though said person has qualifications in IT. If he had listened to my advice 5/6 years ago he would have stopped purchasing rubbish routers and other nonsense and let me manage the service for him, and then he wouldn't have had any problems, or at least they would be resolved quickly as and when, but he is presumably too paranoid that I might try and shaft him if he lets me set it up by stealing his wifi connection or something (my own connection is far superior so there would be no point in doing that!), and also wants to penny pinch by getting ADSL routers from brands I do not rate because PC world have them on sale. Luckily, neighbour #1 took my advice and purchased a good router (Linksys) and let me set it up, so it was a very simple task of fixing it once he approached me.

Edited by Pipexer (Fri 03-Aug-12 21:55:28)

I find with many provided routers already being preconfigured, many customers struggle to understand that there are separate router admin logins, modem authentication login and sometimes a different online account login.

The modem auth login is of course probably never used by the customer and not readily found.
I always write it on the bottom of the modem.

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

I don't know more specifics than that because the BT engineer had been out after I "took charge" of the situation.

Before?

"Before", indeed, can't edit as too long ago

Edited by Pipexer (Sat 04-Aug-12 10:27:28)

It's a pretty sorry tale though. That's assuming no notification really was sent - possibly to out-of-date contact email addresses.

I like the chap with "IT qualifications". How to use MS Office I expect.

Just noticed your sig - What happened to Beekle?

I thought that TT had moved away from requiring login details for authentication?

It seems not in this case, the new login details were their phone [email protected] and a randomly generated new password which they gave over the phone.

The telephone number has, as I recall, always been the "username" although both user and pass can now be left blank. Maybe he's connecting/authing via Tiscali etc equipment.

Edited by Deadbeat (Sat 04-Aug-12 17:35:46)

They were both originally using [email protected] (same as their email) yet when were moved onto LLU last week (new installation at the exchange) this no longer worked. Blank credentials were not working when I tried. Who knows how their systems are set up - you could speculate they don't even know themselves properly which is why they were never informed of new login details.

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

Just noticed your sig - What happened to Beekle?

A combination of old age and - perhaps - a feather cyst finally getting the better of him. He nearly made it to his ninth birthday so he didn't have a bad innings. At least he was mobile right up until the end even if he did sway and pant a bit when he landed.

Thanks for asking

Edited by Andrue (Sat 04-Aug-12 18:59:42)

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

..... you could speculate they don't even know themselves properly.....

In reply to a post by Deadbeat:

I thought that TT had moved away from requiring login details for authentication?

Yes this is correct but it depends on the router. My Billion 7800N doesn't require any TT login details, yet the Linksys X2000 and Draytek 120 do. I guess there must be some sort of 'autosensing' built into the Billion.

Seen this thread ?

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

But with respect you can't ignore the issue of the BT engineer who came round and did all these works and then said there were other issues when it was an auth problem all along. This just causes even more problems! Unless there was some other hidden issue with the line but I am not aware of this and the connection was fine, physically, before and after.

Well to fill in some blanks... When an Openreach engineer receives an SFI2 task from a service provider his remit is basically to ensure the line is firstly performing within its specs and then to get the router to sync up (green sync light) - authentication issues are not within his remit, if the correct username/password are provided by the service provider he can try to input these but if not or they are incorrect there is no obligation in fact I can say had on heart that I have never been given these details by TalkTalk in the job notes. While there is the provision for an engineer to setup or repair a routers setup this is often NOT authorised by the service provider (SP/CP's are charged for any completed SFI2 modules which includes end-user equipment).

Part of the SFI2 task can include testing the end-users (your friends) internal wiring/extension socket past the main linebox and there is a requirement to get the service working as fast and error free as possible, this can include replacing or fixing internal wiring, but again this has nothing to do with authentication issues and everything to do with complying with the mandate of the task outlined by his customer 'TalkTalk'.

When the engineer stated "there were other issues" he wasn't lying or wrong, indeed there were other issues stopping your friend getting online, issues it would seem the service provider had not empowered him to fix.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Seen this thread ?

Yep

In reply to a post by FRS_Plunderer:

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

But with respect you can't ignore the issue of the BT engineer who came round and did all these works and then said there were other issues when it was an auth problem all along. This just causes even more problems! Unless there was some other hidden issue with the line but I am not aware of this and the connection was fine, physically, before and after.

Well to fill in some blanks... When an Openreach engineer receives an SFI2 task from a service provider his remit is basically to ensure the line is firstly performing within its specs and then to get the router to sync up (green sync light) - authentication issues are not within his remit, if the correct username/password are provided by the service provider he can try to input these but if not or they are incorrect there is no obligation in fact I can say had on heart that I have never been given these details by TalkTalk in the job notes. While there is the provision for an engineer to setup or repair a routers setup this is often NOT authorised by the service provider (SP/CP's are charged for any completed SFI2 modules which includes end-user equipment).

Part of the SFI2 task can include testing the end-users (your friends) internal wiring/extension socket past the main linebox and there is a requirement to get the service working as fast and error free as possible, this can include replacing or fixing internal wiring, but again this has nothing to do with authentication issues and everything to do with complying with the mandate of the task outlined by his customer 'TalkTalk'.

When the engineer stated "there were other issues" he wasn't lying or wrong, indeed there were other issues stopping your friend getting online, issues it would seem the service provider had not empowered him to fix.

Unfortunately you are assuming that he was referring to an auth issue - from what I gather he indicated to the customer that there were physical line issues present which was why the router was not connecting, which is why my neighbour had stalled on the issue as he was under the assumption the line needed to be repaired. This was the result of what the BT engineer said. Yes, TalkTalk shouldn't have sent him out, but his misinformation only caused more of a problem. I cannot understand why he didn't just declare the line as perfectly fine when he arrived rather than start to replace already working equipment, as per your own statement all he needed to do was check the DSL light was lit (which it was).

I know full well the BT engineer is not there to mess with router settings nor would I expect him to, my point was in this case he declared the line as having issues when it clearly didn't

Edited by Pipexer (Sat 04-Aug-12 23:43:48)

To be blunt, i'm not going to engage in hearsay, that is you saying that your neighbour said that he heard the BT engineer say...

Unless you witnessed the conversaion 1st hand then all your really doing is taking your neighbours interpretation of what the Openreach engineer was trying to communicate to him.

Thats why I'm keeping it factual and explaining they way the jobs are built and what is required.

the onsite testing goes like this.

On arrival - Pair Quality Test from a Hand Held Tester, pass or fail - if its a pass then the line meets the specs the CP is renting it to, if it fails then the engineer MUST resolve the conditions that caused the fail result and bring the line up to a pass, a retest is carried out after the repair and results are recorded and returned to the CP.... really simple this part if it passes then the line is not faulty, if it fails the engineer must fix it.

Next ADSL test via HHT much like the PQT this is a pass or fail test carried out over 5mins- does the line sync up? Is it stable? are the errors rates minimal? if the answer is NO to any of those he has to fix it, and again record the results and return them to the CP. If the answer to all that is yes which you say it would be being that it isn't a line problem in your opinion then why would he think there is a problem and say there are further line issues? Its a pretty black & white test - it either passes and he has green ticks next to the results or it fails with a red cross. A clean test must be returned to the CP.

Those are the 2 key tests the engineer carries out, I'd suggest that if your neighbour was under the impression that his line was still faulty when the engineer left then he misunderstood.

Likely the engineer said that there is still an onging issue at the service providers end which they would need to resolve and your neighbour took that to mean that the line was still faulty. Either that or the engineer had a pass result for both tests but decided to completely ignore the results say there was a physical line fault, not fix it and decide to leave anyway!?

Edited by deleted (Sun 05-Aug-12 00:14:18)

So then why did he replace the internal wiring and fit a new master faceplate/termination box?

That is not hearsay, as I've seen it with my own eyes, and the internal wiring was in fine condition beforehand as the full sync on 8Mbps was being achieved.

Sounds like you are not prepared to admit that the BT engineer may have got it a bit wrong.. Again I don't dispute TalkTalk are the major problem causers here but the guy didn't help...

Its not just the sync rate thats important, error rates can be an indicator of instability or poor quality of service in the absence of the fault not actually showing itself during the engineering visit.

If a line is generally behaving itself on arrival the errors can be the only thing pointing towards the root cause so it makes sense to chase those out especially if the CP has authorised the work. Do you know what the error rate on your neighbours line was before the engineer arrived or just the sync rate? If a 10th of the data packets were corrupted regardless of his sync rate how good would you think overall performance would be, sync rate alone is a poor indicator of overall service quality.

Updating the linebox to the current model is a standard requirement regardless of the condition of the one already fitted, it does not indicate that the old linebox was substandard of faulty just that the new ones have an extra filter in them that cleans up interference picked up from the internal extension wiring.

Your neighbours extension wiring may have been causing errors, might have been star wired, had bad joints causing high resistance or some slight water ingress causing a small loop not enough to hurt telephone service or sync rates but cause errors again its the engineers job to sort this if thats what the CP wants.

Am I not prepared to admit that the engineer somehow messed up? Not really but I'm not going to condemn his actions on hearsay which is what this is ("you heard your friend say that this is want he said").

Broadband skills are pretty much the last skillset an engineer will be selected for by Openreach, the engineer first has to master Overhead and Underground Jointing - provision and repair before he'll be considered for broadband so they tend to be very experienced and don't often jump to conclusions or say incorrect things. Its partly due to the fact that broadband jobs are high value to Openreach - alot of money is paid by the service provider for results and if a job is substandard then Openreach simply is not paid or a good chunk of the charges are challenged and voided.

Thats why he must have a full set of ADSL test passes before closing and returning the job and why I find it hard to believe that with a green sync light but a red internet light (which is claissic no PPP/authentication) that he would say there was still a line fault - if there was a line fault his ADSL test would not have passed and he would not be able to close the task.

Edited by deleted (Sun 05-Aug-12 17:59:56)

He doesn't have extension wiring. I know the setup because my house is the same and everything is in the same place.

When a line is perfectly fine, and the DSL light is lit on the router, there is no reason for a BT engineer to start replacing the wiring and master socket, the connection already has sync, so if the problem is that there is no sync, and when he turns up there is sync, then it makes no sense to replace things.

Your speculations about the line potentially having some sort of esoteric problems are far fetched as clearly the connection has been working fine for the best part of 6 years. Are you trying to tell me that the line problems the customers end were introduced the same time the customer was switched over to LLU at the exchange? Hmm!

But of course my neighbour made the entire story up... [roll]

... even a BT engineer round who replaced all the house wiring and master box ...

So did that mean the incoming cable to the master was replaced along with the master? Not any internal house wiring as well? That's what you are now saying, and the quoted phrase rather oddly put.

There is a small box outside the front door which the pair is terminated in (which comes up from underneath the driveway) which leads to a master socket on the opposite side of the door (less than 5m cable run) which is where the master box is (originally the old 80s style but replaced with NTE5 a few years back). The cable between that was fully replaced (this is quite a common thing they do here and I think almost everyone's on the road has been replaced at some point or at least had work done on it - often when the front door is replaced with uPVC and the cable gets damaged), and a new master box was installed with new faceplate. Hence all the wiring in the house.

Edited by Pipexer (Sun 05-Aug-12 12:58:34)

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

He doesn't have extension wiring. I know the setup because my house is the same and everything is in the same place.

Sorry when you said:

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

... a BT engineer round who replaced all the house wiring and master box and was investigating further as the line was still faulty....

...and finally a BT engineer for taking a sledgehammer approach to trying to fix something, and then fobbing the customer off with a line fault issue, when the issue is a simple username/pass issue...

I took house wiring to mean extension wiring, we typically don't describe wiring before the linebox as house wiring as its part of the Openreach network... It does however illustrate my point though that you or your friend arn't lying or making things up just that we tend to rationalise what people say to what we understand. The engineer may have said your service provider has network issues or faults and your neighbour took that to mean that the line was still faulty. Far fetched?

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

When a line is perfectly fine, and the DSL light is lit on the router, there is no reason for a BT engineer to start replacing the wiring and master socket, the connection already has sync, so if the problem is that there is no sync, and when he turns up there is sync, then it makes no sense to replace things.

Wrong, I've already explained why he would need to replace those parts, your totally focused on overall sync speed and don't see the implication of errors.

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

Your speculations about the line potentially having some sort of esoteric problems are far fetched as clearly the connection has been working fine for the best part of 6 years. Are you trying to tell me that the line problems the customers end were introduced the same time the customer was switched over to LLU at the exchange? Hmm!

But of course my neighbour made the entire story up... [roll]

Sorry your speaking from ignorance (meant in the nicest possible way), length of service is not an indicator of how will it is performing at a given moment in time, as the saying goes "it had to happen some time" a line can be faulty day 1 or have an issue only after 20 years, nothing lasts forever.

Anyway if your not able to engage in a discussion, understand logical points and put your point of view across in the same way we'll have to call time. Sorry fella.

Sorry if my terminology caused some confusion - hold my hands up there.

I do see the implication of errors as I've had line issues in the past in which I had to insist to my ISP they get a BT engineer out because the sync speed (while it did degrade slightly) was still quite good and it all looked hunky dory from their end. But I don't accept the argument in this instance. Your phone works fine, and your ADSL is sync'd at a good speed, why does that need to be replaced?

I resent being called ignorant - the issue of the line failing at the same time as the customer is moved to LLU is not technical, it is statistical, and the probability of such happening is extremely low, as is the probability of the issue being fixed the same time new login details were provided.

As I see it, the BT engineer once arriving at the premises should have either seen the green light on the router, and/or detemined from his testing equipment that the line was in sufficient condition to sync and thus did no need any further investigation from his end. It depends what work was requested by TT perhaps but the problem reported here was "no connection at all", not "degraded connection", etc, I see no reason for TT even in their incompetence to have requested the wrong works from the BT engineer.

But, (again assuming my hearsay is correct), you have to remember that because of what the BT engineer said then the customer was waiting even longer to get their connection restored because of what he had told them, if he had said "the line is fine", then it's possible they would have got their connection back faster as they could have then prodded TT support again.

Perhaps if I had not stepped in both issues would have been brushed under the carpet by all parties concerned anyway. Sorry to cause offense.