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Hi all,
A friend is having an awful lot of trouble with their Sky LLU broadband. There doesn't seem to be a lot wrong with the line or the service, so I'm sure the internal wiring is to blame.
I don't have the exact line stats to hand but the sync is around 700k down and 200k up and the downstream attenuation is around 35dB.
Unfortunately, there's no master socket that I can identify, and a lot of sockets. There are no DECT phones attached other than the one in the same socket as the router via a filter. There is a sky box in the property but it is not connected to the phone line. None of the sockets other than the first are in use at all.
Below are photographs of every socket that I was able to access:
Living room, first socket. The router and DECT phone are plugged in here.
http://mbdev.net/phonesocketpics/livingroomsocket1a.jpg
http://mbdev.net/phonesocketpics/livingroomsocket1b.jpg
Living room, second socket. This one looks like a manually installed extension point (mounted on the wall rather than in the wall)
http://mbdev.net/phonesocketpics/livingroomsocket2.jpg
Kitchen, first socket. The entire kitchen is an extension to the property and these sockets have a metal finish.
http://mbdev.net/phonesocketpics/kitchensocket1.jpg
Kitchen, second socket:
http://mbdev.net/phonesocketpics/kitchensocket2.jpg
Master Bedroom socket:
http://mbdev.net/phonesocketpics/masterbedroomsocket...
There is also a socket in a second bedroom that I was not able to access, other than to confirm that it is not a master.
Questions:
1) Which wires do I disconnect to attempt to resolve the problem?
2) Is it even sensible to attempt a fix on such a complicated setup? Is there a professional option? BT will not even discuss this line as it is full Sky LLU, and it does not appear in their checker.
Thanks in advance.
Mark
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Full router stats are needed, to see if it looks like it is a Sky LLU speed cap or wiring that is the issue
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Best step is to find the incoming wiring, which I think is the living room and simplify things so that only that socket works using pins 2 and 5
Then wire the other sockets up as needed but living off pin 3 (ring wire)
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Lucikly I found them in my email history from November when those pics were taken.
ROUTER STATISTICS
System Up Time: 00:04:00
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN MER 620 561 0 792 1921 00:02:40
LAN 0 0 0 0 0 00:00:00
WLAN 2372 2258 0 11580 2204 00:02:30
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 762 kbps 249 kbps
Line Attenuation 40.5db 46.0db
Noise Margin 6.7db 6.8db
Attenuation a bit higher than I remembered but still not high enough to justify the low sync, as far as I know.
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Line Attenuation 40.5db 46.0db
Upstream is usually half the downstream attenuation, so something wrong. Strip it all back to a single working socket with two wires only and grab stats again
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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COWBOY - a description of whoever installed that mess.
On the Living Room socket the incoming circuit is on Red & White OR Blue & Black! But which two? Somehow you need to find out which is the actual incoming pair.
Then, there are three connections in some IDCs - they are designed for two and a third can cause issues such as HR faults. The wires are inserted incorrectly - from the wrong side on some and not trimmed. It definitely suggests that the original BT install has been tampered with and the extensions should NOT be connected to the IDCs on the master (the Living room socket 1).
Living room socket 2 is also a master - which will cause problems and the wiring is incorrect.
My advice is to remove the connections for ALL extensions from the master (Living Room1) so that only the incoming line is connected and then look at the results again.
However, you should not be tampering with the master - it is BTs responsibility and unless you are really sure whet you are doing then they might need to bite the bullet and pay BT for a new split face plate master to be installed.
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M H C
taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
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ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Line Attenuation 40.5db 46.0db
Attenuation a bit higher than I remembered Attenuation also suspicious as usually Down Attenuation ~ 2 x Up.
1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
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Looks like the red and white pair might be the incoming in the living room first socket.
If you remove all the other wires from the connectors, i.e. blue, blue/white, black and white/blue, does the phone still work in that socket and are all the other sockets dead.
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Agreed - I think it's the worst I've ever seen.
My friend would be happy to pay BT to sort it out if they would be willing to discuss the line at all. I understand that it's Sky's responsiblity as the line rental provider to pass such requests on to Openreach, but attempting to discuss the physical line with Sky seems to send them into a state of profound confusion.
Another option is FTTC. I understand that if they switch to a FTTC service, then the engineer will sort the wiring as part of the installation. Postcode check says FTTC is available (30th May when I took the pictures) but naturally the line doesn't show up in BT's checker. Sky's own FTTC checker is a disaster; it requires me to be the bill payer (which I'm not) and after that it wants me to pick my line rental supplier from a list - but Sky is not an option!
So I'm probably going to have to try to fix it as is.
I'll take everything out of Living room socket 1 and then attempt to connect the colour combinations you suggest in 2 and 5. If I get the wrong pair, will any harm be done?
Also, you say blue & black is one possiblity - but there are two different shades of blue both going to pin 2 on that socket. Is it a case of trial and error?
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Have you got an IDC/Krone tool? You would be well advised to get on to do the reconnections.
The cheapo one there should be OK. Or similar from anywhere local like Maplin or B & Q etc.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Edited by RobertoS (Fri 08-Feb-13 15:10:21)
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The incoming pair will be from just one of the cables - so either Red & White or Blue & Black, at a guess. However, the nick in the red cable shows what appears to be multi-strand wire whereas BT cable should be solid conductor and neither of those is a normal colour pair either.
Red/White/Blue/Black/Green/Yellow is NOT the normal colour code for BT cables but is used for Alarm circuits. That in itself WILL cause problems. I wonder if there is a junction box or a hidden master that you cannot locate and an extension has been run from that. And of te two possible incoming pairs, the other goes somewhere not identified in the pictures.
By disconnecting all and trying each pair you should not do any damage - unless there is something hidden or you get it really wrong! You are however breaking the law by tampering with the incoming connection. Also, be aware that you could get a small shock of around 75v (RMS) from the ringer if an incoming call occurs.
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M H C
taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
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At a guess, I would think the feed pair is blue/white white/blue shown in this picture. Would be handy to hear/see how the property is fed. I'd also suggest that the sync is capped, so what you are looking for on a before and after router stats, is a healthy increase in SNR.
If all this looks too daunting, then your friend needs to speak to Sky, have them raise an LLU SFI visit.
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Hi Mark the photo in the living room looks like the main. Is the property feed from a pole out side the house or an under ground cable (try and find the main point where the line comes into the house.It could be an old grey wire from the pole to your fix nr roof or a under ground feed.The socket in the living room cables/wires are all bts but its not the main piont in to the house cause would be the colour white orange or old grey wire.When you find the main point take that socket from the lounge and put the two wires coming into the house in numbers 5 and 2 dont matter which way around they go, then plug everything in there ie router and phone.You will then need to ring your service provider and ask them wot speed they can see your router in sync at and then ask them wot your profile is ie the capping on the line because of all the old wiring in the house it sounds to me that the profiles have been built low, now its all dissconnected off the line your servive provider will say much better speeds than your getting.Ask then to change your profile to match your new sync speed.Once you the have good broadband service fit a nte5 and then buy a pack of cordless phones and they just go into the eletric sockets around the house Bt is then responeable up to the nte5 having no exstentions you can phone BT with your faults etc you will not get a bill. cheers hope this helps Martin P.S on a 35db line I would say you should be getting about 8mbps.ta
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Also mark you will not get a bill if you dont have an nte5 fitted in the house cos there is no way you can dis off your wiring to prove the fault.
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you can phone BT with your faults No, you can't! Not when your landline is provided by Sky.
You may be confused by the fact that it is BT Openreach that does the wiring work. But they are not BT Retail, you can't ring them and you have no contract wih them. It is up to Sky to call them out.
Also all that stuff about asking the provider what speed you are syncing at is pointless; you can read them off your router yourself and just wait for it to catch up. Sky LLU don;t operate IP Profiles.
1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
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You may be confused
Worried it might be worse than that Xray, at a guess, sounds like an engineer to me. Guess they aren't employed for punctuation skills.
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Once you the have good broadband service fit a nte5 Which is of course illegal to do yourself on a 35db line I would say you should be getting about 8mbps.ta 8Mbps on a 35dB line, (by the way the stats say 40.5dB), would indicate an extremely sick line.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
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Wot ?
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
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Just saying, Mr.Advice sounds like an engineer of some description, think FRS Plunderer in his early outings, keen to help, but no genuine info/advice to add.
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[cough]
My putting it in a quote, though not the "?", wasn't accidental. Nor was my choice of post to reply to. (The fact you made the post is irrelevant, I was "adding" to its content, not querying it). Have a read of the guy's post again   .
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
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Yes, I did wonder whether I was replying to a complete sentence or some conditional clause of something else 
1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
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yes you ring your cp and they get in touch with bt, wot i meant was you can ring them up not worriing about beening billed as for sky dont change profiles they are the best cp to change your profile takes them a couple of minutes. just tryin to help you its all pretty easy.
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Are you on about a 40db loop loss or 40 db snr .your snr on a line should be 6 db any more would indercate a poor line the higher the snr the lower the sync sspeed.As for fitting an nte5 its not hard my be BT but its only 2 wires. very simple
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Wot?
1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
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The OP (not RobertoS) posted his router stats verbatim. They are as clear as the nose on your face.
Anyway you rarely see a 40dB NM.
1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
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As for fitting an nte5 its not hard my be BT but its only 2 wires. very simple Also very simple is driving at 80mph down a road in a town when there isn't a traffic queue. It's illegal.
Slightly less simple is knowing what you are talking about, in the sense of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". As you demonstrate admirably.
Your advice is garbage, despite your apparent knowledge of phone line and extension wiring.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.3/15.4Mbps @ 600m. - BQM
"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
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Thanks for the help all.
Based on what everyone has said about legality, I don't think I should be attempting a fix here. I was happy enough wiring up my flat's extension sockets when the builders left them disconnected but this is a different ball game.
Unfortunately, the property is rented, the Sky BB/LLU was arranged by the landlord who is not interesting in doing anything about this and Sky will not speak to me or any of the tenants as we are not the account holders.
Is there any foolproof way to figure out if FTTC is available on a Sky LLU line? I really can't make any sense of their line checker.
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RAYSEC GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE AND GO BACK UNDER YOUR ROCK.
I see noise margins like that day in and day out. The guy who posted all these photos and gone into so much detail of the trouble hes having needs help. I am willing to help him solve his problem I know the main socket belongs to BT but wot choice has he got when the land lord will not phone sky for him and sky will not talk to him cos hes not the accout holder.if he finds the feed and cuts it then puts his socket on there its job done.
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Hi FTTC is avaible on sky lines they rent them off BT but if your not the account holder you will not be able to order it, dont get the fttc anyway find the feed into your premises and put that socket there that will solve your issue if the issue is on your internal wiring. p.s. if you go on the bt web site and put your post code in and it says you can get the fibre then you can get the fibre from sky.martin
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Your clueless all service providers can change your profile and yes you ring your service provider if you have any issues wot i was sayin is you can ring them up and will not get a bill if you dont have an nte5 in the premises. Not ring BT if your not with them. And as for me not knowing wot am on about 23 years i have been doing this type of work wot about your self.
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Post deleted by MrSaffron
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Postcode checks carry a risk though, as some postcodes are served by more than one cabinet, or have a mixture of Exchange Only lines in the area
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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A little background.
The majority of ADSL/ADSL2+ modem/routers show a maximum noise margin of 31 (or 31.5dB) due to the limited number of bits used to store the data. Similar issues with attenuation and the downstream limit of 63dB in the GUI and 31dB for upstream usually too.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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In theory - but all depends on what you mean by profile too.
Profile to many means IP Profile, to others it refers to the three stability profiles on fibre, on Sky it refers to things like the Gamer Profile that is supposedly now defunct.
It is one of those vague things, and your blanket statements have perhaps ridden roughshod over the nuances that many people are aware of.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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You knew the word would trigger the auto-censor so tried to avoid it, so result is the post gets deleted.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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wot about your self. Me? I've never broken the law.
1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
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Wow people read into things to much its best to keep it simple, Mark is having all the issues cos the sockets in the house are all star wired, hence everything is connected to each other. He needs to just take it all off and have one socket or find the feed fit an nte5 socket then connect it all back on. Its the broadband sigal not going straight to the router first. If he finds the feed into his premises then cuts the wire fits that socket from the lounge into 5 and 2 its job done, just needs the profile change thats if all his issues are on the internal wiring.
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IP profile (ie capping on the line) if your router is syncing up at say 8.6mbps your service provider will like to cap the speed at 8.1mbps half a meg below your sync speed. Unless the DLM in the exchange is managing the line. Thats how I interpret the IP profile.
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14 minutes after the original poster posted
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/4208596-r...
CUTTING the wire is never recommend, cutting means it is difficult to go back if you get things wrong and if it is the incoming wire that BT owns, then the customer might not just get a charge to fix their wiring if they mess up, but perhaps the complete cost for a new drop wire.
Profile changes are not always needed after a fix of wiring, you need to see the full stats to advise on that, and with some providers you are better letting the automatic systems do it for you, rather than lose the will to live with their support staff
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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IP profile does NOT cap the line, it reacts to changes in the line symc, how it reacts depends on which BT Wholesale product a end-user is on and only applies to BT Wholesale too.
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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if your router is syncing up at say 8.6mbps your service provider will like to cap the speed at 8.1mbps half a meg below your sync speed. 88.2% of Sync to be exact!
1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
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Theres not much to go wrong two wires into 5 and 2 thats it. And I find sky very helpful 5 minutes on the phone they have changed many profiles for me.
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Wot are you doing popping out of you rock?
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When I say capping its the most speed you can recieve on your device :0) We all know it goes up and down hence Marks post.
Edited by deleted (Sat 09-Feb-13 18:54:44)
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And end-user is on Sky so IP Profile is irrelevant
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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It all depends on wot the cp has set the max obtainable to. so its not irrelevant at all and sky can and do change it for you.
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that's not an IP Profile though, is it, it's a speed band or cap on the sync speed.
The IP profile lives in BT's BRAS, something Sky's IP based system doesn't have.
--
Phil
MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.
MaxDSL diagnostics |
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Wot are you doing popping out of you rock?
You'll get banned if you use personal insults or focus on the poster - respond to the content.
--
Phil
MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.
MaxDSL diagnostics
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You can be with sky and be on BTs BRAS system when they rent BTs equipment in the exchange when they have ran out of spare equipments. You are reading to much into in again. All wot I said at the start is wots needed in a nut shell.
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I was keeping to the content of the sarcastic comments, thanks for your concern Phill.
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Sky only has around 200,000 people on the BT Wholesale based service these days, their prime product is MPF or SMPF LLU
So while possible it is unlikely and the router statistics hint more a Sky LLU based service
Perhaps the everyone should just shut up and let the original poster speak, lots of advice now, and continued debate is probably just going to confuse people
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The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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Pay attention! They don't rent from BT in this case: an awful lot of trouble with their Sky LLU broadband. So all your talk of "profiles" is pure waffle.
1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Edited by XRaySpeX (Sat 09-Feb-13 20:13:28)
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Good luck Mark you will need it with this lot.
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And as for me not knowing wot am on about 23 years i have been doing this type of work wot about your self.
Hmm, a new boy.
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