Disconnect

I noticed on the BQM yesterday that overnight/morning there'd been a whole lot of packet loss: sort of like a red frilly line right across the top, but worst betwen 6-10am, and a little more between 8-10pm last night. By 2am the down SNR had dropped to 3.9.

This morning, I see it disconnected just after 6am, and has re-connected at a lower down speed.
For 19 days it had been 8935/1088 with SNR down of 4.8-5.8 , and now it's 7826/1096 with SNR down of 9.6 (been up just under 5 hours).

I assume some noise (or storms?) somewhere caused that, so do I now watch it for a couple of days to see what happens ..perhaps the weather clearing, or unplug it and get a fresh connection?

stats:
DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode ADSL2+
Upstream 1096
Downstream 7826
SNR Margin(Upstream) 6.0
SNR Margin(Downstream) 9.3
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 27.4
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 46.5

As the SNRM is now high, (check before you do anything), a single re-sync will almost certainly return it to around 6dB or 3dB and give you a higher downstream speed.

It is best done through the router GUI if it has a Disconnect/Reconnect or Reboot button, but off/on, or unplug/replug with a 10-20 second wait in between is OK.

Storms may have caused enough resyncs to push margin up. Generally if a storm is approaching and sounds bad I unplug from line and switch off expensive kit.

if its right on top of me, obviously don't touch the kit as that is when a strike could arc through me when unplugging kit.

Thanks.
It's still 9.2 down (6 up) and been up 6 hours now.

I see on the WAN section (Billion 7800n) there's a disconnect button.
I've never used it. Do I just click on it and then it'll re-connect again?

I can't say we've heard or seen any storms. We've had some heavy, airless weather the past two days though, and sometimes the cloud has been heavy. Could have been a storm through the small hours that we never heard I suppose.
(I wish it would rain properly and clear the air a bit.)

Probably unrelated, but I saw two largeish Openreach vans nearby perhaps 2-3 days ago.

I do have one of those Belkin surge protect sockets for everything, but likely not foolproof.

Shame - I'd had a good connection for 20 days after getting rid of a poor one that wasn't improving, so I unplugged for a while one bright morning

That WAN disconnect button is the one . That is the safest method. When used, it probably changes to a "Connect" button, so wai a few seconds as I suggested.

Or, best of all, is disconnect using the button, then power down the router for 20 seconds. Their OS can get in a mess, just like computer OS's. When you restart it, then it will automatically connect.

As Andrew says, the sync-time margin may have been raised. That's what my "almost certainly" catered for. You won't do any damage with a single reconnect, as I suggested.

Thanks.

I tried using just the disconnect button first ..waited around 10 seconds and reconnected: exactly the same.

So then I used the disconnect button again and pulled the plug on the router as you suggested and left it a good 30 seconds.
Plugged back in, it reconected and is almost the same: 7818/1097 and the down SNR 9.3 still. (5.9 up)

Shall I leave it until mid-morning tomorrow and perhaps get a better connection?
Not too bothered about speed as much as the NM.

Ah well. As Andrew said.

Don't mess any more. It normally takes 10-14 days of a stable connection for the DLM to lower the noise margin again. If and when that happens it should automatically re-sync.

If it does that overnight then a daytime Disconnect/reconnect just using that button should add a bit more to what the overnight one did.

If it hasn't done so after 14 days, then try again as above, and if still no improvement you need to get your ISP to have the noise margin reset.

If happy with the speed, the higher the noise margin the more stable the line. Also the lower the speed the fewer the errors.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 24-Jul-13 14:32:38)

OK - will do. Thanks.

I suspect there's thunder not far away ..very heavy & humid today.
Hopefully it'll sort itself out.

These days I tend to ignore thunderstorms, as when with O2 a few disconnections didn't matter. They don't have the BT Wholesale DLM that has got at you. I suppose I should worry now.

However, at one time I used to disconnect and power off. The folk with horror stories in this thread are far from unique. Powering ff the router and unplugging it from the phone line and mains is the recommended procedure. That applies even if the storm is a fair distance away, it can still mess up your DLM even without a strike anywhere nearby.

I've read that thread - could be alarming. I'd never considered unplugging the router if thunder was anywhere nearby!

Well, I'm seeing no packet loss on the BQM now, but the NM's are the same.

A friend who lives further north tells me they had violent storms a couple of nights ago.
Not sure if electrical storms can affect the points on the route from Zen in regards to my connection, or of it's just local interference that does it.

I'll just leave it alone and hope for improvement

The optical links, i.e. exchange and beyond should have no effects, and the data centres should be safe enough, but with lightning you can never be totally sure.

Thanks I learn a little bit more!

....so, I'll assume nothing just to be sure

Well, I just noticed there'd been a disconnect at around 12.30pm today, and although the NM's are better now, the down speed is much less (these stats 4 hours after it reconnected):

DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode ADSL2+
Upstream 1084
Downstream 6653
SNR Margin(Upstream) 6.4
SNR Margin(Downstream) 6.6
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 27.4
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 46.5

Yesterday had some packet loss showing on the BQM and a lot of high blue spikes on the latency - had looked pretty OK today though.
We had heavy rain late afternoon yesterday but no actual thunder. Still heavy today.

Shall I leave the connection as it is and just see how it goes until the weather clears a bit?

Just noticed I had another disconnect not long before I turned the computer on around 11am this morning:

Operational Mode ADSL2+
Upstream 1084
Downstream 6653
SNR Margin(Upstream) 6.1
SNR Margin(Downstream) 7.1
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 27.4
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 46.5

This is the second time (the first being two days after the initial one - see my last post 26th July).
Again, it's connected at a lower down speed (up speed a tiny bit less too),
and I have noticed that slower speed at times too when web pages are opening/loading.

When it was giving me around 7.3-7.5 it was working really well.
I

Ummm.

Presumably the disconnect was at the time of the red spike on your BQM graph?

It's odd that the sync speeds are identical to Friday's. Just the noise margins are a bit different, which is normal. What told you there had been a disconnection?

Have you got a corded phone anywhere? If so, plug it in somewhere and try the Quiet line test, which is 17070 option 2. If you haven't got a corded phone just use your ordinary one. Incidentally, you haven't just replaced your phones have you? Or anything else electrical or electronic?

That quiet line test is best done from the test socket, but worth a go "as is" for now.

Yes, that spike was it.
I have the BQM pinned, so if there has been a problem, I take a look at some point in the day just to make sure it's all been OK.

There is a corded phone somewhere ..need to find it, but just did it on the digital one and it's absolutely silent.
This phone replaced our old digital one last March, and didn't seem to cause any problems.
I got a notebook computer, but it's in it's case & only been connected once so far around 2-3 weeks ago when Office and Avast were installed on it. I haven't had much time since to put any files on it etc.

The only other item we got is a Dyson DC44 digital vacuum 7th June. It charges in another room, and that's usually late afternoon/early evening. When I use it, it's usually in the afternoons.
Can't think of anything else electrical that's new or not working properly.

NM's still the same now as earlier.

Nothing there looks a candidate then.

I think the house next to ours may have got fibre yesterday as there were two Openreach vans outside ..but that wouldn't have caused the problems ...unless they've got some sort of problem with their line, but can't see something like that affecting mine as it's wired?

So, do I leave it to see if anything else happens, or unplug the router one fine morning for half an hour?

My line/connection is usually stable, so when something does happen, it makes me wonder why

A problem with their line could affect yours. Two vans for fibre would be unusual unless it was FTTP. What does your area have?

Yes, I thought two vans odd ...I'm assuming they were next door as they were both parked right outside their house, and there are no cabinets on this side road - they're around 70 yards down the main road.
Not sure how long they were at the house next door though.
We can get FTTC, but I don't know about FTTP ....not mentioned on SamKnows

If you can get FTTC you can't get normal FTTP, but you can get FTTPoD if you have a lot of money and find an ISP that (a) knows what it is, and (b) sells it.

Not sure if they have a lot of money, but they do run their own businesses.
Whatever

Shall I leave my connection alone and see how it goes, or shall I pull the router plug for half an hour on a fine morning to see if it re-connects with a better result?

I forget if we know what router you have.

If it is listed in the table for this product I suggest you download that and run it all the time your computer is on. (Stick a link to it in your Startup folder).

If you check the graph now and then, (you can rescale the vertical and horizontal axes), pick a time when the downstream SNRM is running high - preferably a bit higher than the 7.1dB in those latest stats.

Turning off for 30 seconds should be fine. I wouldn't wait much longer than that.

It's the Billion 7800n - I downloaded that, and it sets the router address itself.

I think I did it all correctly, and didn't really change anything ..just ticked all the boxes on the 'capture' tab, but although it's running, it registers zero for NM and zero for speed!
Must have something set wrong?

I'll need to sort that out tomorrow if you have any notion what I did wrong ..too late now

NM's are 6.3down/6.5 up right now. Hasn't been higher than 7 since 26th.
I've been keeping a note of that:

fter I re-started it on 4July due to it being sluggish, I got this:
04/07 11.50am re-start 8935/1088 NM6.1/5.6 11.50AM
Then it disconnected on 24th:
24/07 11.10am disconn 7826/1096 NM 9.4/6.0
24/07 14.15pm retry 7818/1097 same speed
25/07 01.25am 7.9/6.0
25/07 11.23am 9.2/5.9
26/07 00.45am 8.6/6.0
26/07 12.35pm disconn 6653/1084 NM 6.6/6.4 14.30PM
26/07 23.00pm 5.9/6.4
29/07 01.00am 5.1/5.7
29/07 11.00am 6.5/6.4

and it stayed like that until today.

I just checked the line data information, and it shows noise margin re-sets in that column that sort of tie in with the disconnections I had:

Noise Margin Reset
Run Mode
Run Mode Changed
Interleave
Date

N Interleaved N Auto 26-Jul-2013 12:18
Y Interleaved N Auto 26-Jul-2013 12:18
N Interleaved N Auto 24-Jul-2013 06:19
Y Interleaved N Auto 24-Jul-2013 06:19
N Interleaved N Auto 12-Jan-2013 12:36
N Interleaved Y Auto 12-Jan-2013 12:36
N Fast N Auto 10-Jan-2013 15:03
Y Fast Y Auto 10-Jan-2013 15:03

I decided not to mess about with it and phoned Zen Tech seeing their lines were quiet - chap called Ray had a good look at everything and had me use the test socket with a new filter just to see ..still no difference, so I'm guessing not this side of the line.
He went and did some line tests, returned and discussed the anomalies and my line data, and went away again promising to return 10-15minutes.

Seems he got a BRAS cap removed! He said it had been banded at 3-6Mb (I've been getting around 7.5 down for months though), and said it would take 72 hours to settle properly to the 82%
No-one had known why it had been applied in the first place though, so I'll just hope it stays stable!

So, these are the stats right after I plugged it back into the normal side of the socket:

DMT Status No Defect
Operational Mode ADSL2+
Upstream 1137
Downstream 9360
SNR Margin(Upstream) 5.8
SNR Margin(Downstream) 6.4
Line Attenuation(Upstream) 27.4
Line Attenuation(Downstream) 46.5

Very strange. Seems Zen are back doing what they have the reputation for - great support . hey seem to have occasional batches of unhappy customers, but that is first class.

I think he will be wrong about the 72 hours though:). I think that 82% is 88.2%, and it should set immediately. Unless they have a slow-responding copy, which I don't think is the case.

Easy enough to find out. Run the BT Wholesale performance test, and when it gives the noddy results page click the Further diagnostics at the bottom. It'll ask for the phone number than give graphs, and more usefully text boxes with the Down and Up sync and IP Profiles.

It would be interesting if you copy and paste the content of both.

Downstream IP Profile 8.23?

I have to be honest, I may not have had many problems, but whenever I have, Zen have been very good.
Today however was particularly good service, and he spent a good while tracking down the problem, and rang back quickly both times he went to check or test things.
He said it had been banded at 3-6.
When I thanked him for his time, he replied that he just likes to make people happy! That kind of service or response from people is not always easy to find

Even with my limited knowledge, I doubted it would improve further in the coming days as it's the best it's ever been - just as long as BT's systems don't mess with it again ..remains to be seen.

He even told me to do one of the BT tests, adding that the results are recorded by BT, so I saved the results (just before 4pm):

1. Best Effort Test: -provides background information.

Download Speed
8.23 Mbps

0 Mbps 21 Mbps
Max Achievable Speed

Download speed achieved during the test was - 8.23 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 4 Mbps-21 Mbps.
IP Profile for your line is - 8.26 Mbps

2. Upstream Test: -provides background information.

Upload Speed
0.97 Mbps

0 Mbps 0.83 Mbps
Max Achievable Speed

Upload speed achieved during the test was - 0.97Mbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 0.83 Mbps

I see my upload speed is still exceeding the stated maximum.

The NM's are currently 5.3 down / 6.1 up (down was 4.8 an hour ago)

Anyone on the phone when it was 4.8dB?

No, phone quiet all evening.

It was 5.3 down / 5.6 up when I just took a look before writing this reply ...now it's 4.8/6.1 ...no, now 4.6/4.8 - seems to move about a fair bit!
Last look: 5.0/5.9

It shouldn't be moving around as quickly as that sounds. Have you got it saving to a file, as well as the graphs? A copy and paste of 20-30 lines of that is easier to provide on here than links to lots of graphs.

I think I've seen it move frequently before when I've watched it after a re-connection etc.

No matter how many times I read the instructions and checked through the set-up, I couldn't get Routerstats to register more than a straight line Zero in both. The icon showed it as working, but there were no proper results.

I just tried it again only to find that it completely froze up, and took some time to close down.
I've actually uninstalled it now.

Is there any other way to check the NM's?
I can keep checking it as and when I remember and keep a record if that's helpful?

It was 5.0/6 a few moments ago,...changed to 4.9/6.2 ..5.1/6.0 ...5.1/5.8 ...seems to change every few seconds!

Those changes are insignificant! Nowt to worry about.

I'll have a look at the settings for it on my standby machine, which is Vista and I think has it installed, if I remember later. I can't run it on FTTC of course.

As XRaySpeX says, variations are expected, but the pattern over 24 hours matters. In general you expect it to fall at dusk and rise at dawn. Mine did so by 3.5dB (downstream). That's why the default margin with most ISPs is 6dB .

But say 1.5dB variation occurs during 5 minutes well inside daylight hours then something is odd.

Thanks

I'm sure I've seen it flit about like that before.

Thank you.
I don't mind checking it every now and then & keeping a record of it - if I keep the Billion control panel open I can just refresh it whenever I take a look.
If it's all the variations needed, then that would be difficult

It was 5.9/6.2 at 10am ...5.1/5.9 right now.